Confederate statue stirs controversy in Virginia (3 Viewers)

[Scott]

There is a somewhat interesting parallel with statues showing Lincoln freeing the slaves. These have come in for some criticism because it shows him or you can read that white men giving to blacks what was rightfully theirs. In addition, there was a lot of blacks taking the bulls by the horns and freeing themselves, or self emancipation.

Of course, no one is advocating taking them down buy it just shows how views of what was once acceptable changes.

There's point! It does look patronizing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_Memorial

 

[tdubel]

The non-white and possibly non-Christian populations in this state.

What do the NON Christian populations have to do with it???????????????? If you are talking about Jewish, there were well represented in the Confederacy and that is a fact. My wife is full blooded Jewish, would you care to argue that point with her? and her dead ancestors??

Seriously, why don't you make it easier on the entire board and just announce - " I am throwing Gas on the fire, please watch out". Veiled comments and innuendo add nothing IMO.

TD

 

[tdubel]

Man I'm already there...^&grin

If you were not, reading threads like this will surely "age" you.................

TD

 

[Scott]

What do the NON Christian populations have to do with it???????????????? If you are talking about Jewish, there were well represented in the Confederacy and that is a fact. My wife is full blooded Jewish, would you care to argue that point with her? and her dead ancestors??

Seriously, why don't you make it easier on the entire board and just announce - " I am throwing Gas on the fire, please watch out". Veiled comments and innuendo add nothing IMO.

TD

The posting of this story is already tinder for discussion. Not every Toy Soldier collector has an emotional stake in the causes his collection represents in miniature.

What is veiled about an observation that non-white and non-Christian Americans (or non-theist Americans like myself) could feel excluded from equal justice by the majority because of icons in front of the court representing an exclusively white and theist culture? I was pretty clear about that in a number of earlier posts. The lawyer involved may not be making his case but it's worth thinking about.

Walking a mile in others shoes and all.

 

[jazzeum]

There was some mention in this thread about the Confederate flag. Here's an article about the flag's origin, http://deadconfederates.com/2013/05...orrect-origin-of-the-confederate-battle-flag/

 

[Jack]

The posting of this story is already tinder for discussion. Not every Toy Soldier collector has an emotional stake in the causes his collection represents in miniature.

What is veiled about an observation that non-white and non-Christian Americans (or non-theist Americans like myself) could feel excluded from equal justice by the majority because of icons in front of the court representing an exclusively white and theist culture? I was pretty clear about that in a number of earlier posts. The lawyer involved may not be making his case but it's worth thinking about.

Walking a mile in others shoes and all.

It raises the issue of whether any multicultural country can have symbols that do not exclude at least one group of its citizens. Do the bars on the US flag symbolising the 13 colonies exclude those Americans who have family members who fought on the side of the British in the AWI? What do the native Americans feel about a flag so intimatley linked with the colonisation of their land? Is this an issue that reflects a view that a society must choose different symbols every generation or so in order to update them?

Every now and then there is a discussion about changing the Australian flag because of the presence of the Union Jack. I have often threatened to start wearing a Union Jack waistcoat to work and paint the bonnet of my MG in the same design if the move ever enters the mainstream. The argument is that the symbols are outdated and they may offend or alienate groups in modern Australia. I have had arguments with 'intelligent' people who would put the image of a koala on the national flag. Seriously - a koala? It sleeps 18 hours a day and stays awake only long enough to do three things and then it falls asleep. ANZAC Day is commemorated at schools every year with a really moving reverence. They also never mention Nazism, Communism, Fascism, or Militarism in the hope that no one present is offended by the suggestion that we actually fought against someone.

If one symbol goes, in fairness, others must follow. As an outsider whose knowledge of American law is drawn from CNN and Fox news (they're on the TV so they must be true!) one of the things that impresses me the most is the law that defends a person's right to burn the flag in protest. That shows a real commitment to the symbol on the part of those who disagree with the burning and protect the right to do it. In its own way it shows that those burning it also recognise the power of what it symbolises. Surely a nation that has the courage to defend those who burn its flag have the courage to allow a statue to remain in place?

 

[The Military Workshop]

It raises the issue of whether any multicultural country can have symbols that do not exclude at least one group of its citizens. Do the bars on the US flag symbolising the 13 colonies exclude those Americans who have family members who fought on the side of the British in the AWI? What do the native Americans feel about a flag so intimatley linked with the colonisation of their land? Is this an issue that reflects a view that a society must choose different symbols every generation or so in order to update them?

Every now and then there is a discussion about changing the Australian flag because of the presence of the Union Jack. I have often threatened to start wearing a Union Jack waistcoat to work and paint the bonnet of my MG in the same design if the move ever enters the mainstream. The argument is that the symbols are outdated and they may offend or alienate groups in modern Australia. I have had arguments with 'intelligent' people who would put the image of a koala on the national flag. Seriously - a koala? It sleeps 18 hours a day and stays awake only long enough to do three things and then it falls asleep. ANZAC Day is commemorated at schools every year with a really moving reverence. They also never mention Nazism, Communism, Fascism, or Militarism in the hope that no one present is offended by the suggestion that we actually fought against someone.

If one symbol goes, in fairness, others must follow. As an outsider whose knowledge of American law is drawn from CNN and Fox news (they're on the TV so they must be true!) one of the things that impresses me the most is the law that defends a person's right to burn the flag in protest. That shows a real commitment to the symbol on the part of those who disagree with the burning and protect the right to do it. In its own way it shows that those burning it also recognise the power of what it symbolises. Surely a nation that has the courage to defend those who burn its flag have the courage to allow a statue to remain in place?

Jack,
Surely you are not against Koalas. The Koalan Liberation Front is going to be most upset.

What about Wombats and Emus ? It is outrageous that you did not even consider them.

I think a Boomerang is the obvious choice to relace the Union Jack (and if you believe that then I am
the Duke of Wellington).

Brad,
Good link on the flag as interesting reading.

To get back to the subject. Keep the statue as it is. It is history and as pointed out represents the local
people fighting for what they believed in at that time.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but Hong Kong, 16 years after the handover to China, still has Queen Victoria statues and a Victoria Park.

Brett

 

[Jack]

There was some mention in this thread about the Confederate flag. Here's an article about the flag's origin, http://deadconfederates.com/2013/05...orrect-origin-of-the-confederate-battle-flag/

Brad

Interesting that one of the alternate national flags discussed in Australia is 'our' version of the Southern Cross.

The design was first used for the war flag of the Eureka Rebellion of 1854 at Ballarat in Victoria, Australia. Rebels swore an oath to the flag as a symbol of defiance at its first flying at Bakery Hill and 22 were killed at the Eureka Stockade defending the original flag (now held at the Ballarat Fine Art Gallery).

The flag design has gained wider notability due to its adoption in Australian culture as a symbol of democracy, protest and a wide variety of other causes. It is listed as an object of state heritage significance on the Victorian Heritage Register and was named as a Victorian Icon by the National Trust in 2006 (Wikipedia)

 

[waynepoo]

Brad

Interesting that one of the alternate national flags discussed in Australia is 'our' version of the Southern Cross.

The design was first used for the war flag of the Eureka Rebellion of 1854 at Ballarat in Victoria, Australia. Rebels swore an oath to the flag as a symbol of defiance at its first flying at Bakery Hill and 22 were killed at the Eureka Stockade defending the original flag (now held at the Ballarat Fine Art Gallery).

The flag design has gained wider notability due to its adoption in Australian culture as a symbol of democracy, protest and a wide variety of other causes. It is listed as an object of state heritage significance on the Victorian Heritage Register and was named as a Victorian Icon by the National Trust in 2006 (Wikipedia)
View attachment 126805View attachment 126806

A great Aussie flag second only to the National flag IMO used by the Union movement here as well....I have it on the back window of my car.
Wayne.

 

[tdubel]

The posting of this story is already tinder for discussion. Not every Toy Soldier collector has an emotional stake in the causes his collection represents in miniature.

What is veiled about an observation that non-white and non-Christian Americans (or non-theist Americans like myself) could feel excluded from equal justice by the majority because of icons in front of the court representing an exclusively white and theist culture? I was pretty clear about that in a number of earlier posts. The lawyer involved may not be making his case but it's worth thinking about.

Walking a mile in others shoes and all.

Personally I enjoy walking in my own shoes and worrying about them. If more people would take care of themselves and get their own house in order, seems would be a good thing.

TD

 

[UKReb]

Unfortunately ludicrous issues such as this statue and historical flags has currently become endemic within the Western world. Recently here in the UK a caucasian woman councillor raised a complaint which was upheld by the council not to fly the St George's flag on Armistice Day to honour Britain's war dead. Reason? wait for it.......on the grounds that it would offend the Muslim community because of its links to the Crusades!!!!!!.

Now this was not a looney Left wing London borough but a sleepy little town called Radstock in Somerset which is full of retired farmers and Post Office mistresses (no pun intended here Rob )-Total population in Radstock?- 5620 people. Total Muslims living in Radstock-16.

Bob

 

[The Military Workshop]

Jack,
Before I forget.

If the Union Jack part of the Aussie flag is removed sometime in the future can you see if you can get a deal on the Union Jack waistcoat ? Pretty sure Phil will want one also{sm4}.

Brett

 

[Jack]

A great Aussie flag second only to the National flag IMO used by the Union movement here as well....I have it on the back window of my car.
Wayne.

Dear Wayne

I hate this flag. I hate how it is used by various groups. I dont like seeing it on your car. I do not like it in an historical or artistic sense. It is bad. It must go. It is awful. I despise it. I see it as a menace.

All IMHO of course!{sm4}

Jack

 

[The Military Workshop]

Dear Wayne

I hate this flag. I hate how it is used by various groups. I dont like seeing it on your car. I do not like it in an historical or artistic sense. It is bad. It must go. It is awful. I despise it. I see it as a menace.

All IMHO of course!{sm4}

Jack

In that case I guess you wont be looking for a Eureka waistcoat then.

 

[Scott]

Personally I enjoy walking in my own shoes and worrying about them. If more people would take care of themselves and get their own house in order, seems would be a good thing.

TD

TD, that's a personal truism that I agree with up until I leave this room and interact with the 3 other family members in our home. It gets more complex once I leave this house house. Most ancient cultures have some version of the "Golden Rule", and our fellow primates exhibit traits of empathy and social cooperation as well as holding their territory and protecting their own.

 

[Scott]

Unfortunately ludicrous issues such as this statue and historical flags has currently become endemic within the Western world. Recently here in the UK a caucasian woman councillor raised a complaint which was upheld by the council not to fly the St George's flag on Armistice Day to honour Britain's war dead. Reason? wait for it.......on the grounds that it would offend the Muslim community because of its links to the Crusades!!!!!!.

Now this was not a looney Left wing London borough but a sleepy little town called Radstock in Somerset which is full of retired farmers and Post Office mistresses (no pun intended here Rob )-Total population in Radstock?- 5620 people. Total Muslims living in Radstock-16.

Bob

Now THAT is silly! This is not like one majority population lording it over a minority that lived there for centuries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-concerns-raised-about-links-to-Crusades.html

"...Eleanor Jackson, a university lecturer, said the red and white symbol could cause upset in Radstock, Somerset, because it was used during the Crusades 1,000 years ago.


The Labour councillor voiced her concerns at a meeting called to discuss which flag should be purchased to fly atop the town's repaired civic flagpole.

She said: “My big problem is that it is offensive to some Muslims, but even more so that it has been hijacked by the far right.


"My thoughts are we ought to drop it for 20 years."

Radstock Town Council, which serves a local population of more than 5,600 residents, eventually decided to purchase a Union flag to fly on Armistice Day."

 

[waynepoo]

Dear Wayne

I hate this flag. I hate how it is used by various groups. I dont like seeing it on your car. I do not like it in an historical or artistic sense. It is bad. It must go. It is awful. I despise it. I see it as a menace.

All IMHO of course!{sm4}

Jack

No surprise from an pro glossy, arch conservative Clive Palmer supporting maroon velvet jacket wearing 'can do' voter..{sm3}.:rolleyes2:.up the proletariat!^&grin
P.S see you when we're off to watch grown men play soldiers..... yahoo!

 

[lancer]

I should think the answer to the Australian flag symbol would be obvious...A shrimp (prawn) on the barbie! Disclaimer: this is in no way an attempted insult to our Australian cousins, but simply a lame attempt at humor and a shot at PC, (plus a unique statement about the power of American television). Thank you. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

I think a lot has been said about this in the press that is not accurate or even helpful. I noted the concerns over the way that the EDL (English Defence League) have used this as their alleged emblem to strengthen their belief in what they stand for.

It is not the flag that is offensive and, when you take away the knee jerk reactions and usual over reaction from some to these calls and see the actual facts not only was the offensive to Muslims from the crusades used by this councillor but also the EDL issue. I think, from what was said was that it was (the crusade issue) added to further support the claim it could be offensive to Muslims. It is that part which the stupid press has hi-jacked for their own purposes as its a good sound bite, far more effective than saying the flag could cause offence because of far right groups. It was used wrongly to support an argument but, there was never any issue of the St Georges Flag ever being banned.

Even the Muslim council and some leading figures have openly stated that the St Georges flag does not offend them. Locals in the area from these religious backgrounds also reported that they were not offended by the flag. I think people need to get a grip and stop reacting to the headlines from rubbish papers done to get a reaction or over reaction from sections of society.

The St Georges flag should be used to promote England for all the good things this country has and has done by doing this it would then negate the way it is misrepresented by the EDL and other groups. Ethnic groups know what is offensive and what is not.

Now get back to talking about the alleged confederate controversy
Mitch

Now THAT is silly! This is not like one majority population lording it over a minority that lived there for centuries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-concerns-raised-about-links-to-Crusades.html

"...Eleanor Jackson, a university lecturer, said the red and white symbol could cause upset in Radstock, Somerset, because it was used during the Crusades 1,000 years ago.


The Labour councillor voiced her concerns at a meeting called to discuss which flag should be purchased to fly atop the town's repaired civic flagpole.

She said: “My big problem is that it is offensive to some Muslims, but even more so that it has been hijacked by the far right.


"My thoughts are we ought to drop it for 20 years."

Radstock Town Council, which serves a local population of more than 5,600 residents, eventually decided to purchase a Union flag to fly on Armistice Day."

 

[Scott]

I think a lot has been said about this in the press that is not accurate or even helpful. I noted the concerns over the way that the EDL (English Defence League) have used this as their alleged emblem to strengthen their belief in what they stand for.

It is not the flag that is offensive and, when you take away the knee jerk reactions and usual over reaction from some to these calls and see the actual facts not only was the offensive to Muslims from the crusades used by this councillor but also the EDL issue. I think, from what was said was that it was (the crusade issue) added to further support the claim it could be offensive to Muslims. It is that part which the stupid press has hi-jacked for their own purposes as its a good sound bite, far more effective than saying the flag could cause offence because of far right groups. It was used wrongly to support an argument but, there was never any issue of the St Georges Flag ever being banned.

Even the Muslim council and some leading figures have openly stated that the St Georges flag does not offend them. Locals in the area from these religious backgrounds also reported that they were not offended by the flag. I think people need to get a grip and stop reacting to the headlines from rubbish papers done to get a reaction or over reaction from sections of society.

The St Georges flag should be used to promote England for all the good things this country has and has done by doing this it would then negate the way it is misrepresented by the EDL and other groups. Ethnic groups know what is offensive and what is not.

Now get back to talking about the alleged confederate controversy
Mitch

Thank you. Some of these issues get blown just to stir up people and divide them. We do get stuck with carrying dead peoples baggage rather than what is still important.