wayne556517
Lieutenant General
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Confidence?...Or Something Else? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter FirstLegion
- Start date
mikemiller1955
Lieutenant General
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A concise and well thought out reply...some remarks were infuriating...kudos on your declaration...I see no reason to edit or delete your post
FirstLegion
Sergeant Major
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Of course we want your business. But if one post that you found "off putting" out of maybe a thousand is the reason that you won't buy our figures now when you never have before, then we probably weren't going to get your business anyway. C'est la vie.
Listen guys, I was just having fun with our figures, something I rarely if ever get to do, and was expressing my enthusiasm as a collector myself. Wasn't trying to start anything one way or another, I just really enjoy our products and it's been so long since I actually have had a chance open some up and look at them with a collector's hat on, that I was really pleased with them. Release combinations of various figures and their opposition are literally years of work, so to be nearing completion of something years in the planning is quite rewarding. Some of my word choices probably weren't the best, but the bottom line is that I really like what we do and how we do it for myself as a collector. And frankly, that's how it should be because if I don't like our approach and don't want it for myself, how could I ever expect anyone else to?
Anyway...I do see your point and your post is certainly a fair enough perspective.
Best,
Matt
maddadicus
2nd Lieutenant
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I also agree with you. As a collector of a large number of professionally painted gloss figures at a 1/3 of the cost of 1 FL figure and any number of well painted matte figures, also at 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of 1 FL figure, I do not feel the love from FL poster. Wonder how many FL figures or anybody's soldiers he actually owns.?..Michael
wayne556517
Lieutenant General
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Of course you do its "YOUR" business you aint gonna come out and say there no good,you gave your collector say up when you opened a business,i dont see you as a "Collector" saying how good others products are on any threads lately........
marco55
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Who made the guy on post #8 such an expert.I have never seen any of his work (if he has any).He shouldn't even come on this forum as most of us are "beneath" him.
Mark
Rob
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First of all I'd like to say I don't normally post on FL threads for some of the reasons below so I hope regular visitors here won't mind me popping in at this point.
Firstly I see absolutely no problem at all in Matt having pride and enthusiastic reverance for his product,pride ignites passion and passion is great for this hobby,I suggest all TS makers have it in spades and because they do we have a great hobby with a huge range of different choice before us.So no problem for me.
The thing I would differ with Matt is,is the subject of comments driving way customers(I'm not talking about his own comments here).I do not post on these threads because of the very open agression shown to those who raised points/criticisms in the past.Now before anyone says it I fully appreciate that K&C's threads also were VERY aggressive in the past with doubtors being shouted down etc.I although a self confessed and enthusiastic flag waver,tried never to shout down or insult anyone of a differing opinion,but unfortunately many K&C fans were unfairly tarred with the same brush
But here I suggest Matt is maybe not considering the 'floating voter' as it were,this what happened to me.
I went to the London show(Dec 09) to look at the Stug with honestly a 70% certainty of buying it because I really liked what I'd seen in the pics.Now before you jump on me please let me explain,having been used to years and years of heavier Tanks and equating that to quality(rightly or wrongly) I thought the weight of it very light and this was a shock,just a shock thats all and it made me pause before flashing the credit card.I was then not allowed to pick it up again and re examine it.Both these factors made me pause purchase.I then came home and posted my thoughts on another forum where I was instantly berated for my views,obviously I was a K&C fanatic who could not possibly look out of the box (despite owning many Figarti,HB,TG items in WW2 collection)and needed to be shouted down,forgetting that I'd said how good it looked.
My point is a simple one,if you are trying to make up your mind about something (I'm afraid I'm not rich enough to make instant decisions and hang the consequences)and you are criticized or mocked,it instantly puts you off and drives you away from the product.Its a shame becuase often I've wanted to comment on FL products as some of them look superb,but confrontation on the forum about products is just not worth it anymore,I always end up having to send 'Sorry about that pm's'.
Just my thoughts guys,best wishes to all
Rob
Firstly I see absolutely no problem at all in Matt having pride and enthusiastic reverance for his product,pride ignites passion and passion is great for this hobby,I suggest all TS makers have it in spades and because they do we have a great hobby with a huge range of different choice before us.So no problem for me.
The thing I would differ with Matt is,is the subject of comments driving way customers(I'm not talking about his own comments here).I do not post on these threads because of the very open agression shown to those who raised points/criticisms in the past.Now before anyone says it I fully appreciate that K&C's threads also were VERY aggressive in the past with doubtors being shouted down etc.I although a self confessed and enthusiastic flag waver,tried never to shout down or insult anyone of a differing opinion,but unfortunately many K&C fans were unfairly tarred with the same brush
But here I suggest Matt is maybe not considering the 'floating voter' as it were,this what happened to me.
I went to the London show(Dec 09) to look at the Stug with honestly a 70% certainty of buying it because I really liked what I'd seen in the pics.Now before you jump on me please let me explain,having been used to years and years of heavier Tanks and equating that to quality(rightly or wrongly) I thought the weight of it very light and this was a shock,just a shock thats all and it made me pause before flashing the credit card.I was then not allowed to pick it up again and re examine it.Both these factors made me pause purchase.I then came home and posted my thoughts on another forum where I was instantly berated for my views,obviously I was a K&C fanatic who could not possibly look out of the box (despite owning many Figarti,HB,TG items in WW2 collection)and needed to be shouted down,forgetting that I'd said how good it looked.
My point is a simple one,if you are trying to make up your mind about something (I'm afraid I'm not rich enough to make instant decisions and hang the consequences)and you are criticized or mocked,it instantly puts you off and drives you away from the product.Its a shame becuase often I've wanted to comment on FL products as some of them look superb,but confrontation on the forum about products is just not worth it anymore,I always end up having to send 'Sorry about that pm's'
.Just my thoughts guys,best wishes to all
Rob
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Matt's initial post may have brushed some folks the wrong way...and..I can understand that....Since "yes" it is his own product and he is the owner of the company....Those of us who do collect First Legion "know his product" and understand his enthusiasm.....As for myself and as a collector....It is my opinion that First Legion produces "the most realistic" product available to date in the toy soldier business......THIS IS WITHOUT A DOUBT.....The cost of the figures is a factor for many collectors....They are not inexpensive....And I see that I will have to plan my purchases gradually.....It is my hope that First Legion will continue to make there product lines "readily available".....I personnaly have become quite "fed up" with "limited runs" and over-priced "retired products".......I personally would rather see a readily avaible product that I can collect at a reasonable pace that costs a bit more then play the retired secondary market game......This is one of the main reasons I have started to shift my collecting strategy towards First Legion.....Better Product with "AVAILABILITY"
Well Said
Rutledge
Master Sergeant
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I continue to maintain that FL's DIRECT SOLD business model is the primary reason for its pricing "advantage". Outside George of Minuteman, FL doesnt have any US dealers. And George (as far as I know) can only sell at shows. All FL sales (in the US) go through its proprietary website. You cant buy FL from Treefrog, Sierra or any other US reseller. This gives FL a major pricing "advantage" in that the dealer's mark-up is eliminated.
To really make a fair comparison in the value of FL's figures with dealer sold lines, ie., K&C, double the price of FL. Or halve the prices of other manufacturers (ie K&C). That is truly an "apples to apples" comparison. After so doing, if you still think FL offers the best value, so be it.
Treefrog's policy toward FL still puzzles me. FL has a dedicated space on its industry-leading Forum. As far as I know, TF received no renumeration from FL for setting it up, and gets nothing for maintaining it. In return FL, a direct competitor to TF's product lines, gets a (free) marketing avenue for announcing new products and engaging in other sales driving activity. Meanwhile TF gets zero dollars in return, and potentially sees its own sales decline. My MBA may not be from Harvard, but to me that seems a peculiar business strategy.
One disadvantage of FL's approach is there are many fewer places where its products are available for sale. Every DIRECT SOLD business model faces this same challenge. It remains to be seen whether FL can drive the sales momentum they need without having a broader distribution strategy.
PS: Full disclosure, I dont own any FL products. They seem very well done, however, and I may order some in the future.
damian
1st Lieutenant
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I continue to maintain that FL's DIRECT SOLD business model is the primary reason for its pricing "advantage". Outside George of Minuteman, FL doesnt have any US dealers. And George (as far as I know) can only sell at shows. All FL sales (in the US) go through its proprietary website. You cant buy FL from Treefrog, Sierra or any other US reseller. This gives FL a major pricing "advantage" in that the dealer's mark-up is eliminated.
To really make a fair comparison in the value of FL's figures with dealer sold lines, ie., K&C, double the price of FL. Or halve the prices of other manufacturers (ie K&C). That is truly an "apples to apples" comparison. After so doing, if you still think FL offers the best value, so be it.
Treefrog's policy toward FL still puzzles me. FL has a dedicated space on its industry-leading Forum. As far as I know, TF received no renumeration from FL for setting it up, and gets nothing for maintaining it. In return FL, a direct competitor to TF's product lines, gets a (free) marketing avenue for announcing new products and engaging in other sales driving activity. Meanwhile TF gets zero dollars in return, and potentially sees its own sales decline. My MBA may not be from Harvard, but to me that seems a peculiar business strategy.
One disadvantage of FL's approach is there are many fewer places where its products are available for sale. Every DIRECT SOLD business model faces this same challenge. It remains to be seen whether FL can drive the sales momentum they need without having a broader distribution strategy.
PS: Full disclosure, I dont own any FL products. They seem very well done, however, and I may order some in the future.
The Harvard MBA is over rated.
Well....Everyone has their price limits but one thing is for sure.....If you do choose to purchase FL products you will like them....No doubt about that
Spitfrnd
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Its not the only one.
Fact is that FL is not the only manufacturer on the forum that does not sell through TF. It is also true that many FL collectors also buy from TF, myself included, for the very many other requirements they may have in this hobby. Perhaps the model is not so curious.
Rutledge
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Its not the only one.
I always appreciate commments from those who address a post of mine directly. Those who instead choose to make snarky/sneaky personal remarks, not so much.
That said, my point was CLEARLY not that FL must sell through TF. So allow me to explain for those with inferior discernment abilities
FL has no US dealers (other than show representative George of Minuteman). Other manufacturers who do not sell through TF typically sell through OTHER dealers, of various types and kinds.
Most manufacturers do not AGGRESSIVELY tout themselves as providing a greatly superior value proposition - some may cost more, some less, but the quality differences are typically commensurate. FL positions itself as if its production and design methods are so inherently superior they can do what others CANNOT. My contention is that while they may indeed have some excellent capabilities, their price "advantage" is largely and primarily the result of their distribution model and not just the result of their having performed a complete reinvention of how TS figures are designed and produced.
Thus, my review and questions about the viability of the purely DIRECT SOLD business model of FL, and its implications for the industry at large, remain intact.
Peter Reuss
2nd Lieutenant
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Treefrog's policy toward FL still puzzles me. FL has a dedicated space on its industry-leading Forum. As far as I know, TF received no renumeration from FL for setting it up, and gets nothing for maintaining it. In return FL, a direct competitor to TF's product lines, gets a (free) marketing avenue for announcing new products and engaging in other sales driving activity. Meanwhile TF gets zero dollars in return, and potentially sees its own sales decline. My MBA may not be from Harvard, but to me that seems a peculiar business strategy.
A few words in response...then back to the FL conversation!
You'll note that our policy towards FL is the same one we apply to Conte, Collector's Showcase, FOV, Frontline, Little Legion...(the list could go on).
The Treefrog Forum exists to support, promote, and expand the toy soldier hobby. Collectors have interests that cover the spectrum of collecting: from gloosy to matte, from plastic to metal, from simple to conoisseur. The Forum has space for all. We have seen the membership expand rapidly over the past years, making this Forum a primary source of information and relationships for many people. We're proud that it has done so well. Had we attempted to limit discussion to companies that we carry we would have excluded a large portion of this hobby, limiting the usefulness of this forum.
As you can tell, the Treefrog Forum is not simply the marketing arm of Treefrog Treasures LLC! We welcome ALL to come and discuss, and they have done that. Do we reap benefits from having our name on such a forum?Of course we do.
We are proud that manufacturers, dealers, and collectors all feel welcome on the Trefrog Forum, whether they are affiliated with Treefrog Treasures or not.
Way back when Shannon told me about her concept for a forum, I told her that she was nuts and that it would never work. I think she knew what she was talking about!
I don't have a Harvard MBA - I have a Luther Seminary M. Div. It's still a Master's degree, right???
Pete
Mister Dave
Command Sergeant Major
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I always appreciate commments from those who address a post of mine directly. Those who instead choose to make snarky/sneaky personal remarks, not so much.
That said, my point was CLEARLY not that FL must sell through TF. So allow me to explain for those with inferior discernment abilities
FL has no US dealers (other than show representative George of Minuteman). Other manufacturers who do not sell through TF typically sell through OTHER dealers, of various types and kinds.
Most manufacturers do not AGGRESSIVELY tout themselves as providing a greatly superior value proposition - some may cost more, some less, but the quality differences are typically commensurate. FL positions itself as if its production and design methods are so inherently superior they can do what others CANNOT. My contention is that while they may indeed have some excellent capabilities, their price "advantage" is largely and primarily the result of their distribution model and not just the result of their having performed a complete reinvention of how TS figures are designed and produced.
Thus, my review and questions about the viability of the purely DIRECT SOLD business model of FL, and its implications for the industry at large, remain intact.
I do think most of us follow your thinking re: what contributes to First Legion's pricing abilites, but at some point I think you are at risk of getting a bit lost in the weeds here. If one likes the figures a company makes, he will buy them and vice versa after all. And it is hard to argue these are not extremely nice looking figures at the price point they are offered at currently. Thank goodness they seem to have no interest in the late Victorian era over at FL for my sake.
MD
Rutledge
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Just to be clear, I dont have a Harvard MBA either!
I completely understand and appreciate your perspective Pete. Certainly it is your and Shannon's site and business to run exactly as you please. And obviously, you have every right to be proud of the success you have had. Not that you need or wanted them, but let offer my sincere "Kudos".
Every industry is peculiar to itself and must be evaluated as such. In "Cottage industries" like toy soldiers, there clearly can be differnt rules than might apply than to industries like, say soft drinks, kitchen appliances or Hardware stores.
Running a private business is vastly different than running a public one. You are free to "maximize profit or sales" -- or not. Presumably a study has not been performed to say whether you would be getting more or less sales and profits if you ran the Forum differently -- as a profit center, for example. And clearly you may not care one bit.
It does sound as if you have seen positive results from the selling side of the business with the introduction of the Forum. That is fantastic.
Where I might have concern is the longer term. It is a bit unusual, you must admit, for a business to dedicate resources toward a pure cost center that actually encourages competitors, from all levels, to actively market themselves against the side of your business that actually allows the Forum to exist. So while it may well work like an absolute charm here, it is definitely not the norm.
I think its great the Forum has done well, and I hope it continues to do so.
But keep this in mind: If the Direct Sold model proves to be successful, over time they will have greater profits and more capital to reinvest and grow their business. They will become more and more competitive, and their market share will grow. They could adopt other price points to capture even more share. Eventually other manufacturers may feel the pressure, and be forced to adjust their strategies. Not saying it will happen, just that it could.
Change does not happen overnight, and who knows how things will develop. I certainly dont. Regardless, whatever the path wanders, I wish TF the best.
fmethorst
Command Sergeant Major
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First of all I'd like to say I don't normally post on FL threads for some of the reasons below so I hope regular visitors here won't mind me popping in at this point.
Firstly I see absolutely no problem at all in Matt having pride and enthusiastic reverance for his product,pride ignites passion and passion is great for this hobby,I suggest all TS makers have it in spades and because they do we have a great hobby with a huge range of different choice before us.So no problem for me.
The thing I would differ with Matt is,is the subject of comments driving way customers(I'm not talking about his own comments here).I do not post on these threads because of the very open agression shown to those who raised points/criticisms in the past.Now before anyone says it I fully appreciate that K&C's threads also were VERY aggressive in the past with doubtors being shouted down etc.I although a self confessed and enthusiastic flag waver,tried never to shout down or insult anyone of a differing opinion,but unfortunately many K&C fans were unfairly tarred with the same brush
But here I suggest Matt is maybe not considering the 'floating voter' as it were,this what happened to me.
I went to the London show(Dec 09) to look at the Stug with honestly a 70% certainty of buying it because I really liked what I'd seen in the pics.Now before you jump on me please let me explain,having been used to years and years of heavier Tanks and equating that to quality(rightly or wrongly) I thought the weight of it very light and this was a shock,just a shock thats all and it made me pause before flashing the credit card.I was then not allowed to pick it up again and re examine it.Both these factors made me pause purchase.I then came home and posted my thoughts on another forum where I was instantly berated for my views,obviously I was a K&C fanatic who could not possibly look out of the box (despite owning many Figarti,HB,TG items in WW2 collection)and needed to be shouted down,forgetting that I'd said how good it looked.
My point is a simple one,if you are trying to make up your mind about something (I'm afraid I'm not rich enough to make instant decisions and hang the consequences)and you are criticized or mocked,it instantly puts you off and drives you away from the product.Its a shame becuase often I've wanted to comment on FL products as some of them look superb,but confrontation on the forum about products is just not worth it anymore,I always end up having to send 'Sorry about that pm's'
Just my thoughts guys,best wishes to all
Rob
I agree Rob,
The forum should be a place for rational discussion between people sharing similar interests. Rational discussion is a skill that must be learned so it is not surprising that when you throw people of varying skill levels together on a forum such as this discussions that start out fine can easily degenerate into emotional shouting matches. It takes considerable skill to oppose or question a proposition and stimulate rather than shut down discussion.
In your example it's unfortunate that you couldn't bring up a discussion point and have a rational discussion with current owners to determine for yourself whether your reservation was justified or not.
Spitfrnd
Banned
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Well said Dave; I also appreciate the clarification for my " inferior discernment abilities"; perhaps something was lost in translation.I do think most of us follow your thinking re: what contributes to First Legion's pricing abilites, but at some point I think you are at risk of getting a bit lost in the weeds here. If one likes the figures a company makes, he will buy them and vice versa after all. And it is hard to argue these are not extremely nice looking figures at the price point they are offered at currently. Thank goodness they seem to have no interest in the late Victorian era over at FL for my sake.
MD
I agree with you as well Frank, unfortunate indeed.