Confidence?...Or Something Else? (3 Viewers)

[Vezzolf]

A few words in response...then back to the FL conversation!

You'll note that our policy towards FL is the same one we apply to Conte, Collector's Showcase, FOV, Frontline, Little Legion...(the list could go on).

The Treefrog Forum exists to support, promote, and expand the toy soldier hobby. Collectors have interests that cover the spectrum of collecting: from gloosy to matte, from plastic to metal, from simple to conoisseur. The Forum has space for all. We have seen the membership expand rapidly over the past years, making this Forum a primary source of information and relationships for many people. We're proud that it has done so well. Had we attempted to limit discussion to companies that we carry we would have excluded a large portion of this hobby, limiting the usefulness of this forum.

As you can tell, the Treefrog Forum is not simply the marketing arm of Treefrog Treasures LLC! We welcome ALL to come and discuss, and they have done that. Do we reap benefits from having our name on such a forum?Of course we do.

We are proud that manufacturers, dealers, and collectors all feel welcome on the Trefrog Forum, whether they are affiliated with Treefrog Treasures or not.

Way back when Shannon told me about her concept for a forum, I told her that she was nuts and that it would never work. I think she knew what she was talking about!

I don't have a Harvard MBA - I have a Luther Seminary M. Div. It's still a Master's degree, right???

Pete

Well said....Applause is in order

 

[Vezzolf]

. My contention is that while they may indeed have some excellent capabilities, their price "advantage" is largely and primarily the result of their distribution model and not just the result of their having performed a complete reinvention of how TS figures are designed and produced.
.

Not necessarilly so......I believe that FL has produced a product line that is unlike any other and targets a specific market.....Their product is unique....Not simply a clone of other manufacturers/competitors.....prices for FL products are indeed higher than other manufacturer's products....To me this is not necessarily an "advantage" as you say despite their distribution model......FL does have their own web-site and I'm sure has many avenues available to promote themselves (such as in in other forums)......If you produce a great product it be discovered and it will sell....as long as it is not priced off the charts.........Produce a substandard product and it will fail in spite of your distribution methods

 

[Rob]

I agree Rob,

The forum should be a place for rational discussion between people sharing similar interests. Rational discussion is a skill that must be learned so it is not surprising that when you throw people of varying skill levels together on a forum such as this discussions that start out fine can easily degenerate into emotional shouting matches. It takes considerable skill to oppose or question a proposition and stimulate rather than shut down discussion.

In your example it's unfortunate that you couldn't bring up a discussion point and have a rational discussion with current owners to determine for yourself whether your reservation was justified or not.

Well said Dave; I also appreciate the clarification for my " inferior discernment abilities"; perhaps something was lost in translation.


I agree with you as well Frank, unfortunate indeed.

Thanks for your comments guys,I guess the upside is that people have real passion for this hobby which is always good to see,even if it makes us a bit over the top now and again.(me most of all)

Now did someone mention FL doing a Wellington figure?I'd be up for that

Rob

 

[Rutledge]

Produce a substandard product and it will fail in spite of your distribution methods

Very true. Please note that in fact I PRAISED FL for its high product quality.

My MAIN point is that, in the long run, there is no such thing as a "free lunch". Bernie Madoff's victims found this out the hard way. OK, IN NO WAY am I saying FL is fraudulent. Not AT ALL. So please dont anyone get excited. What I am simply saying is that there are intrinsic value relationships that exist in all marketplaces. You cant buy a new Mercedes for the price of a used Hyundai - or if you can, something is funny -- and not in a "haha" kind of way.

When a new manufacturer comes along, and their intrinsic value relationship instantly blows away the rest of the market, the question is, quite naturally, what are they doing different than everyone else? I dont believe in the fairy godmother, and dont expect anyone should.

So, while Im sure FL's design skills are excellent, even extraordinary, the absolutely most visible difference is their distribution model. Surely it is more efficient for a dealer network to instantly take all your inventory off your hands. Compare shipping out in bulk to ~10 business addresses to sending onesy-twoseys to hundreds/thousands of individuals. Also, a dealer network can do all/most of the end user marketing and relationship building, which can be costly. And lets not forget the cash flow and inventory risk mitigation advantages offered by dealers.

There therefore has to be a VERY GOOD reason for a manufacturer to bypass an established dealer network. The only explanation I can come up with is the belief that eliminating dealers makes the price/value relationship so compelling that the increased sales (and profit margin) will more than compensate for the reduced distribution efficiency.

I would also suppose that manufactures who do not leverage dealers and their already-in-place customer base will initally have lower overall sales until/unless they are able to establish their brand.

Maybe Im wrong. Maybe FL has truly re-invented the (toy soldier making) wheel. Perhaps they are smarter, harder working, more gifted, whatever, and can produce what no one else can, instantly, out of the box, from the get-go. Maybe so. We shall see.

 

[jazzeum]

They've only bypassed the dealer network in this country as they have dealers in Europe.

 

[marco55]

Very true. Please note that in fact I PRAISED FL for its high product quality.

My MAIN point is that, in the long run, there is no such thing as a "free lunch". Bernie Madoff's victims found this out the hard way. OK, IN NO WAY am I saying FL is fraudulent. Not AT ALL. So please dont anyone get excited. What I am simply saying is that there are intrinsic value relationships that exist in all marketplaces. You cant buy a new Mercedes for the price of a used Hyundai - or if you can, something is funny -- and not in a "haha" kind of way.

When a new manufacturer comes along, and their intrinsic value relationship instantly blows away the rest of the market, the question is, quite naturally, what are they doing different than everyone else? I dont believe in the fairy godmother, and dont expect anyone should.

So, while Im sure FL's design skills are excellent, even extraordinary, the absolutely most visible difference is their distribution model. Surely it is more efficient for a dealer network to instantly take all your inventory off your hands. Compare shipping out in bulk to ~10 business addresses to sending onesy-twoseys to hundreds/thousands of individuals. Also, a dealer network can do all/most of the end user marketing and relationship building, which can be costly. And lets not forget the cash flow and inventory risk mitigation advantages offered by dealers.

There therefore has to be a VERY GOOD reason for a manufacturer to bypass an established dealer network. The only explanation I can come up with is the belief that eliminating dealers makes the price/value relationship so compelling that the increased sales (and profit margin) will more than compensate for the reduced distribution efficiency.

I would also suppose that manufactures who do not leverage dealers and their already-in-place customer base will initally have lower overall sales until/unless they are able to establish their brand.

Maybe Im wrong. Maybe FL has truly re-invented the (toy soldier making) wheel. Perhaps they are smarter, harder working, more gifted, whatever, and can produce what no one else can, instantly, out of the box, from the get-go. Maybe so. We shall see.

A really interesting post.
Mark

 

[Vezzolf]

So, while Im sure FL's design skills are excellent, even extraordinary, the absolutely most visible difference is their distribution model. .

The most absolute visible difference seems to be the product itself.....There are many manufacturers who sell direct....and they are successful......If First Legion is able to market and sell their products in house....MORE POWER TO THEM.....If this results in better pricing of exceptional products for consumers all the better......

 

[Rutledge]

They've only bypassed the dealer network in this country as they have dealers in Europe.

I am aware of this. Their model outside the US is clearly different than within it.

I suspect shipping and language differences make it more difficult to implement the direct sales model outside the US. In addition there are currency fluctuation challenges (euro, pound) that FL may feel make going through European dealers preferrable.

I dont know how FL's prices compare in Europe versus domestically. That would be interesting to know, taking into account currency conversions.

A really interesting post.
Mark

Thanks Mark!

..If this results in better pricing of exceptional products for consumers all the better......

Certainly most would probably agree. Just be aware that there are other costs, so to speak.

 

[Vezzolf]

Most of your comments...."sound" like you know much more then all the rest of us on this forum or even more than First Legion themselves.. It sounds like you may be privy to information we don't have ....Or It could simply be that it just "sounds" that way.....

 

[kogu]

I looked up prices on a German dealers website as well as a British dealer, www.hstss.de and www.tmterrain.co.uk and it seems, considering the exchange rate for EURO and GBP, that the prices are roughly 30% higher as here in the U.S. where they sell direct.
Konrad

 

[Rutledge]

Most of your comments...."sound" like you know much more then all the rest of us on this forum or even more than First Legion themselves.. It sounds like you may be privy to information we don't have ....Or It could simply be that it just "sounds" that way.....

I am definitely not privvy to any inside information. Ill let you be the judge as to how I "sound".

The only information "advantage" I might have relative to other Forum members would be formal business education/training and leadership experience in a completely different industry where the Dealer vs. Direct Sold business model was/is a source of many studies and much debate.

 

[Rutledge]

I looked up prices on a German dealers website as well as a British dealer, www.hstss.de and www.tmterrain.co.uk and it seems, considering the exchange rate for EURO and GBP, that the prices are roughly 30% higher as here in the U.S. where they sell direct.
Konrad

Thanks for checking Konrad. Sounds about right.

 

[jazzeum]

I am aware of this. Their model outside the US is clearly different than within it.

I suspect shipping and language differences make it more difficult to implement the direct sales model outside the US. In addition there are currency fluctuation challenges (euro, pound) that FL may feel make going through European dealers preferrable.

I dont know how FL's prices compare in Europe versus domestically. That would be interesting to know, taking into account currency conversions.

Also commercial practices tend to be different. Not on point but as an example only of differences, distribution arrangements and practices ex-US tend to be much different.

 

[Vezzolf]

I am definitely not privvy to any inside information. Ill let you be the judge as to how I "sound".

The only information "advantage" I might have relative to other Forum members would be formal business education/training and leadership experience in a completely different industry where the Dealer vs. Direct Sold business model was/is a source of many studies and much debate.

And in light of all this education and experience your conclusions regarding First Legion's business model are ??????

 

[VIRIATO]

A few words in response...then back to the FL conversation!

You'll note that our policy towards FL is the same one we apply to Conte, Collector's Showcase, FOV, Frontline, Little Legion...(the list could go on).

The Treefrog Forum exists to support, promote, and expand the toy soldier hobby. Collectors have interests that cover the spectrum of collecting: from gloosy to matte, from plastic to metal, from simple to conoisseur. The Forum has space for all. We have seen the membership expand rapidly over the past years, making this Forum a primary source of information and relationships for many people. We're proud that it has done so well. Had we attempted to limit discussion to companies that we carry we would have excluded a large portion of this hobby, limiting the usefulness of this forum.

As you can tell, the Treefrog Forum is not simply the marketing arm of Treefrog Treasures LLC! We welcome ALL to come and discuss, and they have done that. Do we reap benefits from having our name on such a forum?Of course we do.

We are proud that manufacturers, dealers, and collectors all feel welcome on the Trefrog Forum, whether they are affiliated with Treefrog Treasures or not.

Way back when Shannon told me about her concept for a forum, I told her that she was nuts and that it would never work. I think she knew what she was talking about!

I don't have a Harvard MBA - I have a Luther Seminary M. Div. It's still a Master's degree, right???

Pete

Being from a country were TS shows are nowhere to be found and the number of collectors is vastly outnumbered by the number of modellers, I say thank you a zillion times to you and Shannon for this forum. It certainly has changed my hobbying (and thus my leisure life) for the better. I feel indebted, thats what I feel...

All the best,
Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

Just to be clear, I dont have a Harvard MBA either!

I completely understand and appreciate your perspective Pete. Certainly it is your and Shannon's site and business to run exactly as you please. And obviously, you have every right to be proud of the success you have had. Not that you need or wanted them, but let offer my sincere "Kudos".

Every industry is peculiar to itself and must be evaluated as such. In "Cottage industries" like toy soldiers, there clearly can be differnt rules than might apply than to industries like, say soft drinks, kitchen appliances or Hardware stores.

Running a private business is vastly different than running a public one. You are free to "maximize profit or sales" -- or not. Presumably a study has not been performed to say whether you would be getting more or less sales and profits if you ran the Forum differently -- as a profit center, for example. And clearly you may not care one bit.

It does sound as if you have seen positive results from the selling side of the business with the introduction of the Forum. That is fantastic.

Where I might have concern is the longer term. It is a bit unusual, you must admit, for a business to dedicate resources toward a pure cost center that actually encourages competitors, from all levels, to actively market themselves against the side of your business that actually allows the Forum to exist. So while it may well work like an absolute charm here, it is definitely not the norm.

I think its great the Forum has done well, and I hope it continues to do so.

But keep this in mind: If the Direct Sold model proves to be successful, over time they will have greater profits and more capital to reinvest and grow their business. They will become more and more competitive, and their market share will grow. They could adopt other price points to capture even more share. Eventually other manufacturers may feel the pressure, and be forced to adjust their strategies. Not saying it will happen, just that it could.

Change does not happen overnight, and who knows how things will develop. I certainly dont. Regardless, whatever the path wanders, I wish TF the best.

Maybe it's time for Treefrog to open a branch in Europe (say Portugal) so that they can sell FL's products in Europe, out of the Direct Sold model.
I would also like to remind that there are some FL dealers in Europe (UK, Germany, Italy...) and that FL's price point looks the same as in the US (if you compute customs taxes on the US price). So maybe there's something more to it than just the Direct Sold model.
Dear Rutledge, this is all IMHO and very respectfully, from someone who is not collecting FL (yet)...
Regards,
Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

I looked up prices on a German dealers website as well as a British dealer, www.hstss.de and www.tmterrain.co.uk and it seems, considering the exchange rate for EURO and GBP, that the prices are roughly 30% higher as here in the U.S. where they sell direct.
Konrad

Hi Konrad,
That's because of customs taxes. I have been looking up those prices (now why should that be) and it goes like this: if I buy from the US I'll have to pay some 34% Vat and customs taxes on the US price. Hence the 30% price difference from an European point of view...


Regards,
Paulo

 

[Rutledge]

And in light of all this education and experience your conclusions regarding First Legion's business model are ??????

TBD...

 

[FirstLegion]

TBD...

When you figure it out, please let me know.

 

[Rutledge]

Hi Konrad,
That's because of customs taxes. I have been looking up those prices (now why should that be) and it goes like this: if I buy from the US I'll have to pay some 34% Vat and customs taxes on the US price. Hence the 30% price difference from an European point of view...


Regards,
Paulo

Sounds like without the VAT FL prices in Europe would actually be LOWER than in the US. Even with higher shipping costs. Curious.

Maybe it's time for Treefrog to open a branch in Europe (say Portugal) so that they can sell FL's products in Europe, out of the Direct Sold model.
I would also like to remind that there are some FL dealers in Europe (UK, Germany, Italy...) and that FL's price point looks the same as in the US (if you compute customs taxes on the US price). So maybe there's something more to it than just the Direct Sold model.
Dear Rutledge, this is all IMHO and very respectfully, from someone who is not collecting FL (yet)...
Regards,
Paulo

Im sure Treefrog is flattered by your invitation, Paulo. Just to be clear, Treefrog does not sell FL in the US because FL operates under the Direct Sold model.

There is simply no question that the Direct Sold model offers a pricing advantage over Dealer Sold because there is no "middle man". Personally I happen to believe in, and advocate for, the "middle man". Including Treefrog. But that is just me

And certainly, by all means, Paulo, collect FL as much as your heart desires and wallet permits!