Confidence?...Or Something Else? (2 Viewers)

[Rutledge]

When you figure it out, please let me know.

Im quite sure you will not need me to figure it out. Afterall, you do have "inside information".

 

[FirstLegion]

Im quite sure you will not need me to figure it out. Afterall, you do have "inside information".

Touche! However, even with the inside information, it's not an easy one to figure out as there are obvious advantages to both models and this is something we do revisit regularly. Suffice it so say, there are the basics that apply to every business conceptually on this topic which you've touched upon and then there are the specific factors to a real world business such as First Legion which aren't quite as obvious. It's the latter that typically dominate the discussion. Like I said, we do revisit this topic regularly as there is no simple answer as to which model is better - each approach has its positives and negatives.

 

[Spitfrnd]

The most absolute visible difference seems to be the product itself.....There are many manufacturers who sell direct....and they are successful......If First Legion is able to market and sell their products in house....MORE POWER TO THEM.....If this results in better pricing of exceptional products for consumers all the better......

I could not agree more, the marketing model is irrelevant to me but it is hardly unique. In in end it is the product that truly matters.

 

[Vezzolf]

I do not claim to be a business guru....but it would seem to me that if a manufacturer is able to produce and market direct sales of their products effectively without a middle man to drive up cost it would be beneficial to both manufacturer and consumer....Again that is a decision for the manufacturer to conclude....and should not be subject to scrutiny on the forum since we do not know the details regarding these decisions.....as no more than a consumer......I base my purchasing decisions on quality of product and the price of that item......Thank you First Legion for a tremendous product....and thank you to Treefrog for a great forum....

 

[Rutledge]

Touche! However, even with the inside information, it's not an easy one to figure out as there are obvious advantages to both models and this is something we do revisit regularly. Suffice it so say, there are the basics that apply to every business conceptually on this topic which you've touched upon and then there are the specific factors to a real world business such as First Legion which aren't quite as obvious. It's the latter that typically dominate the discussion. Like I said, we do revisit this topic regularly as there is no simple answer as to which model is better - each approach has its positives and negatives.

"...each approach has its positives and negatives." Absolutely. Choosing the best distribution strategy is a fundamental issue for just about every business. Consider Coke and Pepsi. Both recently reversed themselves after selling off their bottler businesses years ago, and are now buying them back. No doubt a lot of highly paid consultants were brought in to help their executives make that decision. And who knows if its the right one! Perhaps it depends on the business environment? TBD, I guess...

....but it would seem to me that if a manufacturer is able to produce and market direct sales of their products effectively without a middle man to drive up cost it would be beneficial to both manufacturer and consumer....Thank you First Legion for a tremendous product....and thank you to Treefrog for a great forum....

No doubt consumers love lower costs while manufacturers are happy to absorb the profit that might have gone to a "middle man". But keep in mind what would happen if every manufacturer went the Direct route: Treefrog, and its Forum, would be out of business. Only by serving as "middle man", does Treefrog have the resources (money) to maintain the Forum. The Forum is free for users. If Treefrog is bypassed because sales are direct via the manufacturer, the Forum goes away.

Personally I support Treefrog and believe it provides high value added services and are not just a middle man "costs driver-upper".

 

[Vezzolf]

I do much business with Treefrog and I am in full support of them and this forum, but you sir are simply using this forum to attack First Legion and create "bad blood".....As you said earlier you do not collect First Legion.."yet"......It seems that you are simply disgruntled about a relatively new company claiming that their sucesss is due in most part to their distribution model....I think NOT ....LOOK AT THE PRODUCT ITSELF it is SUPERB ...e-nuff said......;could it be that you are simply a bit green-eyed about their excellent products and successful debut into the toy soldier business....your comments seem to indicate this.....

 

[Peter Reuss]

I do much business with Treefrog and I am in full support of them and this forum, but you sir are simply using this forum to attack First Legion and create "bad blood".....As you said earlier you do not collect First Legion.."yet"......It seems that you are simply disgruntled about a relatively new company claiming that their sucesss is due in most part to their distribution model....I think NOT ....LOOK AT THE PRODUCT ITSELF it is SUPERB ...e-nuff said......;could it be that you are simply a bit green-eyed about their excellent products and successful debut into the toy soldier business....your comments seem to indicate this.....

Hmmm...that's not how I've read it...

Rutledge has many times said that he thinks the figures are very nice...I think he's just a businessman pondering the business model used in this case. I don't think it's an attack on FL...just an observation on a different way of doing business.

 

[Rutledge]

I do much business with Treefrog and I am in full support of them and this forum, but you sir are simply using this forum to attack First Legion and create "bad blood".....As you said earlier you do not collect First Legion.."yet"......It seems that you are simply disgruntled about a relatively new company claiming that their sucesss is due in most part to their distribution model....I think NOT ....LOOK AT THE PRODUCT ITSELF it is SUPERB ...e-nuff said......;could it be that you are simply a bit green-eyed about their excellent products and successful debut into the toy soldier business....your comments seem to indicate this.....

Your interpretation of my comments is way off. Way off. Bordering on the absurd.

Lil ole me, "disgruntled"? About what exactly? Envious of...? I have no intention of starting my own toy soldier company. I do not have a financial interest in any others. My personal collection is just that - personal. I do not consider it an "investment". Why exactly would the success of FL rile me so? Or better yet, why does my evaluation of their business model rile you so???

Perhaps if you reread my prior posts you will see where I have only praised FL for their product quality, design and value. I have never denigrated their product line in any way and have only complimented it.

Lets be clear: I have no personal stake in the outcome of the evolution of the toy soldier world. None whatsoever. I dont know those who work for the different companies. My "loyalty" toward one company or another is as tenuous as the brand of pants I wear - whatever "suits" I observe and evaluate the business goings on, from afar, because doing so interests me. I post comments because I believe others may find my perspective of value. Clearly not everyone does...

If you dont enjoy my scintillating analysees and insigntful musings on the toy soldier world, perhaps you should avoid reading them in the future.

 

[VIRIATO]

I would submit that FL's price point come's from offering a product that has a quality level halfway between the usual Chinese made matte figure and Russian Connoisseur figure. There is a noticeable quality difference between FL and both others above, although FLs' standard seems to be closer to connoisseur (this is the impression I get when looking at photos, I have never had FL in my hands. Could it be that this is more important than the distribution model when it comes to price point?
Back to FL's superior quality: to me it looks that amidst FL's ranges there are figures that are better done than others (once again from photos, and we have great ones on this great forum). Example: the early Bavarians v. the Prussians or the WWII figures. To me the mounted figures are probably the best deal. But the way seems to be up, on quality and also on prices.
Starting to collect them to me is now a strategy decision: it depends on room to display, on my focus on another Nap range (curiously a Nap range in gloss: Imperial's), $$$$, etc... But one thing is for sure: their highest price wouldn't deter me from collecting them alone, it would be a case of less numbers than other brands but better! Maybe when I've changed to my future new house... I can't see myself collecting one or ten FL figures, the ranges look so good that if I choose one it'll be a deep focus thing...
Forgive me for my personal ramblings...

Paulo

 

[Spitfrnd]

....If you dont enjoy my scintillating analysees and insigntful musings on the toy soldier world, perhaps you should avoid reading them in the future.

I am not sure that is the way I would describe them but they are amusing and you are welcome to say whatever you like as far as I am concerned. But then perhaps that comment was intended to be tongue in cheek.

 

[Rutledge]

I am not sure that is the way I would describe them but they are amusing and you are welcome to say whatever you like as far as I am concerned. But then perhaps that comment was intended to be tongue in cheek.

If EVER I use the word "scintillating" in describing my own activities and dont do so tongue firmly in cheek, that will be a very sad day for me....

 

[Spitfrnd]

I would submit that FL's price point come's from offering a product that has a quality level halfway between the usual Chinese made matte figure and Russian Connoisseur figure. There is a noticeable quality difference between FL and both others above, although FLs' standard seems to be closer to connoisseur (this is the impression I get when looking at photos, I have never had FL in my hands. Could it be that this is more important than the distribution model when it comes to price point?
Back to FL's superior quality: to me it looks that amidst FL's ranges there are figures that are better done than others (once again from photos, and we have great ones on this great forum). Example: the early Bavarians v. the Prussians or the WWII figures. To me the mounted figures are probably the best deal. But the way seems to be up, on quality and also on prices.
Starting to collect them to me is now a strategy decision: it depends on room to display, on my focus on another Nap range (curiously a Nap range in gloss: Imperial's), $$$$, etc... But one thing is for sure: their highest price wouldn't deter me from collecting them alone, it would be a case of less numbers than other brands but better! Maybe when I've changed to my future new house... I can't see myself collecting one or ten FL figures, the ranges look so good that if I choose one it'll be a deep focus thing...
Forgive me for my personal ramblings...

Paulo

You owe it to yourself to try one Paulo. If you pick a non-flag bearer or musician Brit or French Napoleonic and don't like it, I'll buy if from you. I am still gradually building my critical mass of those two.

 

[VIRIATO]

You owe it to yourself to try one Paulo. If you pick a non-flag bearer or musician Brit or French Napoleonic and don't like it, I'll buy if from you. I am still gradually building my critical mass of those two.

Thanks, duly noted!

Paulo

 

[Spitfrnd]

Thanks, duly noted!

Paulo

We can just consider it an international professional courtesy.

 

[FirstLegion]

- My MAIN POINT (read carefully here) is that there is no free lunch. When manufacturers begin to bypass dealers it can lower consumer prices in the short term but ultimately can lead to higher prices and reduced service in the long term.

Up to this point, I have found your comments to be relatively well thought out and somewhat well informed. But this comment is merely silly particularly as it relates to the specifics of this conversation. Please tell me how our pricing/distribution model can possibly lead to worse service and higher pricing? Up til now, you've said some things that have made some sense. But this latest comment is just inane and shows that you know absolutely NOTHING about First Legion as a compnay and are merely speaking from textbooks. We provide the absolutely best pricing relative to quality in the industry and, as anyone who has ever dealt with us direclty can attest to, our customer service and responsiveness is second to none. Simply put, you really don't know at all what you're talking about as it relates to First Legion.

Matt

 

[Peter Reuss]

OK Gents...I think it's time to move on!

 

[jazzeum]

I have followed the discussion started by Rutledge, which posed two questions essentially, as follows (i) does the First Legion sales model make sense; and (ii) how does Treefrog Treasures LLC benefit from allowing First Legion to come on this forum and post announcement relating to changes to existing ranges or new ranges.

First Legion answered the first question, which, although it may not be to everybody's satisfaction, is not up to us to question it. That is their model. Results of operations will determine whether they need to change it.

Peter Reuss answered the second question as to how Treefrog Treasures benefits from companies they don't carry posting on this Forum, something akin to the expression (attributed to President Kennedy) that "a rising tide lifts all boats."

Other than that, it seems this part of the discussion is over.

As lawyers like to say (Bill will appreciate), "asked and answered."

 

[Spitfrnd]

.....
As lawyers like to say (Bill will appreciate), "asked and answered."

Indeed and if you put it that way, many, many times over at this point.

 

[kogu]

So guys, I've been really trying to stay off this forum for the most part and let you all do the talking because the fact is, as a MFR, what I say really doesn't matter. It's what customers and collectors say that means something....

Well, today I received a very large parcel from the UK. In it was a wonderful Stalingrad building done by TM Terrain and the rest of it was Hougoumont and tons of accessories by JG Miniatures. At first I decided that I would just put it away and play with it later when I had time. Well, I'm sure you know how that goes...First I took out some of the terrain....then next thing I knew the entire Hougoumont was setup on the dining room table...then 15 minutes later, it was covered with trees....If any of you went to London in March, then you'd have seen the Hougoumont setup as the setup at the London show was my setup used for the show before it was sent to me. Anyway, I digress...

As a MFR, I'm pretty blessed to have access to, well, a load of our figures. I had specifically been putting French Carabiniers aside for just this moment. So i spent the last hour opening them and putting them on the display and the more I opened the more I realized something. Most of you on this TF forum should turn your ears away because what I'm about to say is probably heretical to you....

As I was opening our Carabiniers, figure after figure (close to 100 - yeah it's good to own the company), the more i realized something. Though this is probably horrible on my part to actually say, the fact is that there isn't even anything close to what we're producing on on the market. Not in a lower price, not in a higher price. Yes, I'm in the "business" but first and foremost I'm a collector and I have to say, as gross as this sounds, I was blown away by the product that WE are producing. I know...that's disgusting....but the fact is that I make it, I approve it, but I seldom get to play with it....well, tonight, I got to play and I have to say, nobody makes figures like First Legion. I'm hooked.

Anyway, I'll show photos over the next few weeks or later as the diorama I'm working on is a BIG one (i.e. 100 Carabiniers is just a small part of it) so it will take some time to put together to where I want it to be. But, if any of you don't collect our figures, I"m going to go out on a limb here and ask, what are you waiting for?? Yes, i know how silly it sounds, but if you could see what I'm seeing then you'd understand....

Blown away....and I feel no shame for saying so, because it's absolutely true....there really isn't even anything close. I giggle at this point when someone says "how does X compare with First Legion." Only people who don't "know" ask such questions.....

Anyway, some will understand what I"m saying, most won't. The fact that I've said it isn't going to make me any friends. Frankly, I don't care...First Legion has always been about making products that "we" want to collect and on that front, I know we've more than succeeded.

Matt

Matt,
I can very much understand what the experience was when unpacking the excellent scenic items and then adding your figures in multiples to come up with a lively scene. When you say that these are the best as of quality/price ratio you are correct, no doubt about it.
Keep it up, you're good at what you're doing!
Konrad

 

[kogu]

Matt,
As the pickiest ******* that you've ever had to deal with, you would expect me to side with you, as your figures are the best, no question, after all I'm the guy who takes K&C and WB figures, repaints them to a much higher standard, and in the process makes them worthless.
So why don't I quite fall in line with the sentiments expressed by your usual fanboys on here? simple really, it's the nature of the collectors in this branch of the hobby they are :-

1) Older than smaller scale collectors

2) Driven by nostalgia for their childhood = badly painted gloss toy soldiers

3) Most are not artists or modellers therfore don't always appreciate the differences in quality
4) We're in a recession worldwide, and your figures cost twice as much as K&C and WB

Further proof? (UK Reb aside) hundreds of photos on this forum from all periods showing bog standard badly painted WB,Conte et al on poor terrain from collectors who clearly are more than happy with their purchases.I personally cannot see the point in photographing something that you have had minimal creative input into - you may as well buy the catalogue - but I digress

In closing you create the best figures in the industry, you push the envelope more than any other company in terms of quality and quantity, I just feel that some people will never be convinced, because they want shiny toy soldiers, or they're on a budget

Now can we please have some more pics of the ACW please?

Ian

Matt,
if you do have more friends like this one, you sure don't need no enemies!
Konrad