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Exactly! I agree with every word of your post 100%.


Yup, lots of valid points by both, it is sad and the constant drone and blaming gets old. I chalk it up to one common denominator - outright hatred that is fanned by our free press. I know it sounds like a broken record, but it is the common root denominator to a lot of the polarity. The question that I can't get over nor ever find an answer to is "Why"? Louis, your point of Tip O'Neil and Ronald Reagan is probably the best correlating one. They were Polar opposites but they respected each other's election and position. I (and do not read this politically, I am stating a fact), repeat I contrast this to the scene we saw at the most recent State of the Union Address. You had the Speaker of the House rip up the President's written speech on National Television. That should not be acceptable or respectful behavior, but it was practically praised in a lot of "print". I find that sad. This is just one example across the spectrum, but to me it was the epitome of what is occurring. Respectful discourse and discussion is welcome, antics, outrage, violence are not.

TD
 
Tom,

As an Appellate attorney, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of states's rights. Before 1932 or so, you would be correct, but, this little thing called "the switch in time that saved nine," upended states rights. Basically, the Supreme Court of the United States, which had been striking down all of the "New Deal" laws meant to get us out of the Great Depression by interpreting the term "interstate commerce" strictly and upholding states rights, had to broadly interpret the Interstate Commerce Clause in order to avoid having the Court packed by FDR. The swing justice, who had been voting along state's rights lines, switched his position to save the Supreme Court from becoming politicized. Since that time, the Interstate Commerce Clause has been interpreted so broadly that no FEMA emergency is required for a national response plan, only a reasonable demonstration that an issue effects people crossing state lines. States rights are now basically limited to the "reserved powers." The powers not "reserved" to the States or "enumerated" (i.e. set forth in the Constitution as being Federal powers) have been subsumed by the Federal government under the Interstate Commerce Clause. Its the exact opposite of how the constitution was meant to be interpreted (where all powers not enumerated or reserved were supposed to fall under State not Federal control), but makes sense now, because we all consider our ourselves first and foremost United States citizens, not New Yorkers or Virginians as the framers of the constitution primarily considered themselves. Under presently established jurisprudence, a strong president, with the support of congress, can absolutely set up a national pandemic plan, which the States would be obligated by the Supremacy Clause (Federal Law takes precedent over State law) to abide by.


Thanks Louis I didn't know the details....
 
Tom,

It is sad to say that I completely agree that our government and our electorate are as divided now as we were during the Civil War. In one of my posts I mentioned my feeling that we have become so polarized that we are, in effect, living through a "cold-civil war." You made the same point in one of your posts by mentioning "a civil war (maybe without guns)." I scratch my head sometimes about how much American politics have changed in my life time. As recently as the 1980's, Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill, while polar opposites on the political spectrum, treated each other with respect and friendship. Today, it would appear that politicians have absolutely no respect or courtesy towards anyone who disagrees with their politics, and this is reflected by the electorate. If we don't find away to live with each other, we are going to end up in a civil war for real.


Louis,
I share your same vision of the US situation at this moment. I would just like to add that this phenomenon is not only American; we are experiencing exactly the same thing here in Brazil. We never had a civil war, but we too are living through a "cold civil-war". Politicians, media, society, the Judiciary, all fueled buy heavy and high octane social media activity, are confronting more and more each day. Coronavirus, for instance, has become first a political issue, just to be second-handedly addressed under a public health perspective... What was at first a political and ideological post-election divide, gained momentum ever since and now with the advent of coronavirus, another kind of divide came through, scrambling even more the lines and having people shift the fields even more: basically that of those who can stay and work at home on one end, against those who were laid-off or put on furlough on the other. The politicians who seek reelection teaming up with the second group (labeled by the media as pro economy), and the challenging candidates teaming with the first (labeled by the media as pro-life). All this under the backdrop of the Supreme Court making erratic decisions on many not “so-constitutional” issues and interfering with the separation of powers, arbitrating disputes between the Federal, State and Municipal governments, and the media clearly taking sides and not really informing, but making propaganda… In sum, a perfect storm for an institutional crisis! Let us hope it does not get that far!
 
Yup, lots of valid points by both, it is sad and the constant drone and blaming gets old. I chalk it up to one common denominator - outright hatred that is fanned by our free press. I know it sounds like a broken record, but it is the common root denominator to a lot of the polarity. The question that I can't get over nor ever find an answer to is "Why"? Louis, your point of Tip O'Neil and Ronald Reagan is probably the best correlating one. They were Polar opposites but they respected each other's election and position. I (and do not read this politically, I am stating a fact), repeat I contrast this to the scene we saw at the most recent State of the Union Address. You had the Speaker of the House rip up the President's written speech on National Television. That should not be acceptable or respectful behavior, but it was practically praised in a lot of "print". I find that sad. This is just one example across the spectrum, but to me it was the epitome of what is occurring. Respectful discourse and discussion is welcome, antics, outrage, violence are not.

TD

This is where Tom and I have some disagreements. No doubt that a portion of our free press is biased, no doubt that there is a portion of our free press that is incompetent and no doubt that we have a percentage of our press that has evolved into punditry rather than news. But the media is only one part of the "blaming and outright hatred" in this county.

You also have to look at our political and economic system and our political leaders. We have a President who is the most divisive leader I have witnessed in my 70+ years. He insults, attacks and threatens anyone who disagrees with him. He constantly tells lies and fans conspiracy theories. He has made the press "the enemy of the people" and yes some resent and even hate him for that. All you have to do is listen to his speeches and read his tweets then do your own research. I am non-partisan, I supported John McCain and other Republicans as well as some Democrats, There have certainly been other divisive leaders. You also have to look at our culture and demographics. Fifty percent of American families live paycheck to paycheck and can't come up with $500 for an emergency. The wealth and income gap in our country is larger than any other industrialized nation. We will shortly no longer be a majority "White" nation and we are probably the most diverse country in the world. All of these realities create fear, anger, blame, bigotry and hatreds. There are some great journalists who risk their lives to get us the real story, whether it is in a war zone, a natural disaster or a corporate cover up. I don't agree with your generalization of the media.

We live in a Capitalist economy and society where profit takes precedence over ethics, truth and even life and health.
We have a majority of our population who are ignorant about government, economics, history and science. I am not saying these people are stupid but they have little motivation to research the news and listen to opposing ideas. How many people get their news from one or two sources? How many people will read or listen to someone who doesn't fall into their comfort zone of beliefs? We have a society that values entertainment over learning and that is what the profit oriented news media has focused on. People want quick answers and information that addresses their fears, shortcoming and prejudices. As the cliche goes "they can't handle the truth" and they don't want to think about what is uncomfortable or time consuming. Sensationalism and partisanship sell!

Because I was alway interested in journalism and politics, many years ago I started reading the editorials from many different newspapers. My son set me up on a program to get editorials from 26 newspapers from the conservative to the liberal. I also try to watch "news" from many media outlets although I admit some turn me off so much with their agendas I find it difficult. I also rely heavily on actual interviews with politicians, historians, economists and scientists.
I know up front which news outlets and journalists have their political biases so I can better evaluate their opinions. Still I find a good portion of editorials to be informative especially if you are willing to read the opposing views and do some research.

Lets face it that getting the facts is not a priority for most people. Most people are struggling to support their families, keep their jobs and spending time with their kids, taking care of elderly parents and their own health.
I teach a course in NYC High Schools about journalism and marketing. I teach these students on how to substantiate real news and verify the quality and veracity of marketed products and services. Perhaps this should be a mandatory course for all our children along with civics, history and science.
The news media is a product of our capitalist system and our population's aptitude. Shame on us for patronizing the pundits who spread hate and disinformation. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water, there are plenty of honest, competent news people out there you just have to look harder
and do some research. I can give you a list of all he good reporting that has saved lives and exposed corruption and violence but its very long.

Education, term limits and an end to lobbyists would certainly help.
These are my opinions and I don't mean to offend anyone. I welcome different ideas and opinions. Democracy is based on Compromise, Communication and Civility.
 
While I am home and a little bored (no grandchildren to watch today and no Zoom classes) here is something that was most disturbing to me related to the C-Virus.

I watched with utter disgust some of the protestors at the Wisconsin State House a couple of weeks ago.
Certainly they have the right to protest the stay at home orders from the governor. I adhere to our Constitutional
right of "free speech" and "assembly". We also know that with freedom comes responsibility and these rights have
limitations. You can't yell fire! in a crowded movie theatre and you can't use this freedom to threaten someone with physical harm.

So a bunch of macho goons came to this protest in their camouflage clothing and carrying their AR15's.
Please note this was not a gun rights protest. They entered the State House with their guns in full sight
which in Wisconsin is legal.
My question and concern is why did they need to display their weapons at a peaceful protest that has to do
with going back to work versus life an death concerns from the pandemic?

In my opinion these gun toting protestors were not patriots or concerned citizens, they were terrorists!
Why? Because when you bring a gun to a peaceful protest you are using it to intimidate, threaten and terrorize
those who don't agree with you, period. You also put other citizens and the law enforcement personnel in danger.
We know that emotions can run high and if one participant pulled a trigger there could have been
mass casualties.

Maybe these gun happy protestors thought they were being courageous in their defiance to the governor .
If you want to show courage go volunteer to work in a hospital or food bank.
Should we all start bringing our guns to protest marches and rallies?

In the late 60's and early 70's I traveled down South with Civil Rights and Voting Rights advocates. We carried no
weapons and peacefully marched and worked in many towns. We were subject to threats, rock throwing, spitting, racial
slurs and police harassment. But we didn't need guns to get our message out. I saw real courage back then,
especially knowing about the three young Civil Rights workers who were tortured and murdered in Mississippi.

If my neighbor had a dispute with me and then came to my house to discuss it carrying a gun there would be no conversation.
I own a gun, and while I might be more conservative on certain gun laws, these punks are the kind that give gun owners a bad name.
And this is another reason why we have such a divide in this country, civility and empathy are gone.

this will be the last of my rants for a while as my teaching starts up again tomorrow.
 
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This is where Tom and I have some disagreements. No doubt that a portion of our free press is biased, no doubt that there is a portion of our free press that is incompetent and no doubt that we have a percentage of our press that has evolved into punditry rather than news. But the media is only one part of the "blaming and outright hatred" in this county.

You also have to look at our political and economic system and our political leaders. We have a President who is the most divisive leader I have witnessed in my 70+ years. He insults, attacks and threatens anyone who disagrees with him. He constantly tells lies and fans conspiracy theories. He has made the press "the enemy of the people" and yes some resent and even hate him for that. All you have to do is listen to his speeches and read his tweets then do your own research. I am non-partisan, I supported John McCain and other Republicans as well as some Democrats, There have certainly been other divisive leaders. You also have to look at our culture and demographics. Fifty percent of American families live paycheck to paycheck and can't come up with $500 for an emergency. The wealth and income gap in our country is larger than any other industrialized nation. We will shortly no longer be a majority "White" nation and we are probably the most diverse country in the world. All of these realities create fear, anger, blame, bigotry and hatreds. There are some great journalists who risk their lives to get us the real story, whether it is in a war zone, a natural disaster or a corporate cover up. I don't agree with your generalization of the media.

We live in a Capitalist economy and society where profit takes precedence over ethics, truth and even life and health.
We have a majority of our population who are ignorant about government, economics, history and science. I am not saying these people are stupid but they have little motivation to research the news and listen to opposing ideas. How many people get their news from one or two sources? How many people will read or listen to someone who doesn't fall into their comfort zone of beliefs? We have a society that values entertainment over learning and that is what the profit oriented news media has focused on. People want quick answers and information that addresses their fears, shortcoming and prejudices. As the cliche goes "they can't handle the truth" and they don't want to think about what is uncomfortable or time consuming. Sensationalism and partisanship sell!

Because I was alway interested in journalism and politics, many years ago I started reading the editorials from many different newspapers. My son set me up on a program to get editorials from 26 newspapers from the conservative to the liberal. I also try to watch "news" from many media outlets although I admit some turn me off so much with their agendas I find it difficult. I also rely heavily on actual interviews with politicians, historians, economists and scientists.
I know up front which news outlets and journalists have their political biases so I can better evaluate their opinions. Still I find a good portion of editorials to be informative especially if you are willing to read the opposing views and do some research.

Lets face it that getting the facts is not a priority for most people. Most people are struggling to support their families, keep their jobs and spending time with their kids, taking care of elderly parents and their own health.
I teach a course in NYC High Schools about journalism and marketing. I teach these students on how to substantiate real news and verify the quality and veracity of marketed products and services. Perhaps this should be a mandatory course for all our children along with civics, history and science.
The news media is a product of our capitalist system and our population's aptitude. Shame on us for patronizing the pundits who spread hate and disinformation. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water, there are plenty of honest, competent news people out there you just have to look harder
and do some research. I can give you a list of all he good reporting that has saved lives and exposed corruption and violence but its very long.

Education, term limits and an end to lobbyists would certainly help.
These are my opinions and I don't mean to offend anyone. I welcome different ideas and opinions. Democracy is based on Compromise, Communication and Civility.


I dont really disagree with a lot of your underlying thoughts. I am just not solely in the camp that thinks the President is a one sided problem. The chips were stacked against him from the get go as far as the undermining, the lying, etc and the constant barrage of baseless in a good number of cases - attacks. That goes back to my question that I can't answer - WHY? Is it because he is not an established politician? Because he didn't embrace the "norms of Washington"? Because he can be an outright jerk in words? I don't know, none of that bs really matters to me. I also don't think there is as much "white hatred" as the free press prints, I just don't and I have lived long enough in a lot of different socio economic situations that it is not as prevalent as the idiots marching with white power in the streets, they are not the norm, hell, they never appeared on tv for a long time, why are they now being glorified? I don't think Trump is a bigot, I think that is a farce talking point. As I have said, I don't love Donald Trump, but I don't think he has been given a fair shake from the get go regardless of his own shortcomings and at times inappropriate actions. It takes 2 sides to make a mess and I think he was dealt from a stacked deck from the get go.

It has been a huge missed opportunity on both sides, we really have a moderate president (he was a Democrat for 90% of his life), but because of personalities and personal hatred, we have the mess that we have. There are a lot of creeps that made this days old shittie stew that is our current reality.

TD
 
Gentle Friends,

As most of you know, politics are not allowed on this forum. This thread has become entirely too political to allow it to continue. I am closing the thread and requesting members to refrain from further discussions of political issues. Such discussions frequently arouse anger and, during this era of pandemic concerns, differing expressions of political opinion are not helpful, nor do they enhance the pleasure derived from our shared hobby.

Thank you for your understanding.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :)
 
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