"DEGUELLO!" The Fall of the Alamo (1 Viewer)

Reb,

Awesome!!!!! (as usual):cool::cool::cool::cool::cool: You and Kevin (Panda1gen) are just about the most talented and knowledgeable duo about your areas of interest I could imagine!:D
 
Bob, I think that all that can be said has already been said, so I will just add that it will have to be TWO pints at the London March show! :).....

Jeff

........and a packet of crisps.
 
Bob

Tip of the hat to you my friend ! ;)

What a outstanding display and narration - simply great.

You are really putting a hurting on my will power to stay away from this range :eek: - my wallet is weakening.

Was that a K&C Napoleonic Officer in "new colors" marching with those Mexicans ? What other repaints do you have there ?

Ron
 
This is quite incredible. You bring history to life sir. The photography is amazing. I can hardly imagine the amount of preparation work that goes into making each scene. Yes, you indeed could be a director.
 
Guys

Many thanks for your kind supportive comments-once again greatly appreciated especially from one's peers. I'm also very pleased you are enjoying the shots and text as most probably like you I never tire of the Alamo story-albeit that Santa Anna described it as "but a small affair" it served as a catalyst for The Texas War for Independence.

As some of you pointed out in your comments which I will confirm it did take a considerable amount of time to set up the shots-especially the Mexican advance across the plaza-once again initially I just couldn't get it to look right in a photo even though it looked OK as a dio-consequently, a lot of trial and a hell of a lot of error so please bear with me as it might well take a good couple of weeks before I can post the next chapter.

A few quick answers to some of your questions/comments.

Firstly a big thank you to Michael (kilted vamp) who early last year tracked down and shipped a whole shed load of Barszo adobe walls for me as a fallback in case my original idea of making foam walls didn't work-as I stated they sure didn't, I suppose they were OK at a distance but nowhere near the top quality some of you guys have knocked up and posted. Thanks Vamp as Barszo pieces are nigh impossible to get UKside.

Rod-The figures are the K&C series with some old metal Conte sets that look pretty good mixed with K&C. However, some of the plastics that eborris has posted are really exceptional and I wish I had access to them this side of the pond.

Ron- Yes you did spot a K&C Nap officer with a little paint job to turn him into a Mexican (I wouldn't have expected anything else from you:D) and if you look carefully you will see a Britain's Collectors figure of a Nap sapper repainted as well. During the next couple of chapters you will see a few more. Santa Anna apparently bought a large number of surplus Napoleonic uniforms from the French government for his troops as well as crate loads of Baker rifles and Tower Musket, Mark III's better known as the Brown Bess from the British. So displaying slightly re-painted Naps is a fairly safe bet-if you discount the fire-arms. However, as a couple of the guys quite correctly stated on here after hard marching from Mexico to Texas whether they still would have looked as spick and span as the figures is another story.

Michael (maddicus) I'm sorry that I didn't use your favorite Duke Wayne model of Crockett for the dio although I do have the Conte figure of him. I too prefer the Billy Bob Thornton version-in fact I believe that his interpretation of Crockett in the latest movie "The Alamo" is the closest to the real David Crockett ever portrayed on film. The burden of his celebrity weighed heavily upon him and being penniless he really only came to Texas to claim his free 640 acres of land. As he claimed he never even knew there was a war going on until he got there. And am currently working on a remolded figure of Billy Bob swinging his musket over his head.

Lancer- I like your alternative history angle suggestion that lets the Texicans win this time and if I was playing war-games I no doubt would attempt to rally James Fannin and his relief column and get them to Travis & Bowie in good time to give Santa Anna hell. But.............:):):)

Scott- Your A....H....(your words not mine) comment re the whole action taken place in the dark! Yes, I was aware of that and actually tried a couple of flash shots with all the spots turned off that illuminates the work-base and shooting through a gauze sheet-final result-you could see no detail whatsoever-proving to me why 90% of Hollywood's interpretations of the Alamo final assault have been shot in bright sun-light. It's called artistic licence.
Thanks again guys.
Reb
 
Awesome work!! Here is your night shot Reb. Hope you don't mind.:)

3263215767_e299b29cbc_o.jpg
 
UKReb said:
"...Scott- Your A....H....(your words not mine) comment re the whole action taken place in the dark! Yes, I was aware of that and actually tried a couple of flash shots with all the spots turned off that illuminates the work-base and shooting through a gauze sheet-final result-you could see no detail whatsoever-proving to me why 90% of Hollywood's interpretations of the Alamo final assault have been shot in bright sun-light. It's called artistic licence..."
Reb
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Got it! Hey, my soldiers are painted all one color. Thanks for the reply! :)
 
Reb

The NAPOLEONICS just call out to me - when I look ! :D ;) :eek:

Great display - it is interesting that Mexican Forces were buying uniforms from France back in 1830's - wonder if that got the French to take a look at this region for future conquest in the 1850's & 1860's ?? :confused:

Ron
 
Santa Anna's Mexican Army 1821-48 Elite Osprey 102 Page 7

I'm not finding any source that Mexican uniforms were from France. They have a style that other armies had at the time. Mexico did get a loan from Britain to buy 20,000 uniforms and 90,000 muskets plus other weapon from Britain, hence the Brown Bess and Baker Rifles. These arrived in 1826.The Mexicans may have been ordering uniforms to fit their own Uniform regulations rather than getting anyone's surplus. The uniforms worn in 1836 were from an order from 1832 for 20,000 uniforms with no indication that they were French.
 
Bob God help us if you ever get into Napoleonics.:p I would be able to stay with you a little bit anyway. But it would be a gas if you were to try your dab hand at Waterloo.
 
Scott said:
Santa Anna's Mexican Army 1821-48 Elite Osprey 102 Page 7

I'm not finding any source that Mexican uniforms were from France. They have a style that other armies had at the time. Mexico did get a loan from Britain to buy 20,000 uniforms and 90,000 muskets plus other weapon from Britain, hence the Brown Bess and Baker Rifles. These arrived in 1826.The Mexicans may have been ordering uniforms to fit their own Uniform regulations rather than getting anyone's surplus. The uniforms worn in 1836 were from an order from 1832 for 20,000 uniforms with no indication that they were French.
Click to expand...

I would never in a thousand years consider myself an expert on surplus Napoleonic or Mexican uniforms. I just build toy soldier dios for mine and hopefully other froggers enjoyment and for you Scott in particular to scrutinize in finite detail.

However, what I do pride myself on is the research I undertake before I build them and in particular the ACW dios-it is virtually impossible to depict every single action of massive fights like Gettysburg and The Wilderness with 54/60mm toy soldiers and one has to decide what to leave out-but the main actions, general orders, personalities and the historical quotes are all fairly accurate according to my knowledge and research of the recorded facts.

Likewise the Alamo as I mentioned in the preface nobody really knows what happened during that final scrap-but the characters and movements of the Mexican columns are as accurate as the facts allow. But I had a few Napoleonic figures in my stash and was curious on whether I could use them in the dio as Mexicans. I began to research where the Mexican uniforms had originated and the slight differences between the French and Mexican versions.

Subsequently, I did say "apparently" (means cannot confirm) bought surplus Napoleonic uniforms from the French government this was based on two sources the first is Rene Chartraids article in
The Company of Military Historians Journal on the Mexican Army and I quote
...."Mexican uniforms were based on French styles and the first uniforms of 1828 had been purchased from France...........Mexican pants of the Infantry were dark blue-the white cotton canvas uniforms were the fatigue uniform. The simple problem of supply and demand made it common for Mexican troops to wear the white pants with the blue tail coats.

Second source was an article written by costume designer Daniel Orlandi who designed the uniforms for the Billy Bob version of The Alamo 2004 and I quote again
"......I wanted to get the Mexican uniforms as accurate as we could as none of the originals exist but we obtained old paintings and lithographs many showing Santa Anna and his officers we also managed to photograph their personal artefacts. The look of Mexican uniforms at this time was heavily influenced by French Napoleonic and in fact we know that much of their early gear and dress was old French surplus purchased from France"

That is why I stated "apparently". Because nobody positively knows- I certainly don't and there are no Quartermaster receipts. But the two sources above sounded reasonable to me even if Orlandi had read the same article as I had. And we all know that Santa Anna did describe himself as "The Napoleon of the West" so one would assume he wanted his army to also imitate the Bonaparte look possibly opening a trade with France to get hold of some originals as he did with Britain for his arms- sounds plausible. Hell I don't know I'm just making this bit up as I go along!!

You quote the Osprey book-well quite a few Alamo historians do not consider that one of the better Osprey uniform issues and I tend to agree it's not a patch on their ACW series but then again that's based on the simple premise that there are an abundance of original ACW uniforms still in existence to base their color plates and text on. Not so the Mexican period of the Alamo.

Vamp-Trust me I'll leave Waterloo to far better men to depict on here than I ever could.
Cheers
Reb
 
UKReb said:
Trust me I'll leave Waterloo to far better men to depict on here than I ever could.
Cheers
Reb
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You're far too modest Bob. With your eye for diorama composition and set-ups, and, an incredible knack for storytelling, you're capable of producing Waterloo or Napoleonic dioramas in epic proportions!!! :D
 
"...Subsequently, I did say "apparently" (means cannot confirm) bought surplus Napoleonic uniforms from the French government this was based on two sources the first is Rene Chartraids article in
The Company of Military Historians Journal on the Mexican Army and I quote
...."Mexican uniforms were based on French styles and the first uniforms of 1828 had been purchased from France...........Mexican pants of the Infantry were dark blue-the white cotton canvas uniforms were the fatigue uniform. The simple problem of supply and demand made it common for Mexican troops to wear the white pants with the blue tail coats.

Second source was an article written by costume designer Daniel Orlandi who designed the uniforms for the Billy Bob version of The Alamo 2004 and I quote again
"......I wanted to get the Mexican uniforms as accurate as we could as none of the originals exist but we obtained old paintings and lithographs many showing Santa Anna and his officers we also managed to photograph their personal artefacts. The look of Mexican uniforms at this time was heavily influenced by French Napoleonic and in fact we know that much of their early gear and dress was old French surplus purchased from France".."


Cool! Thanks for the sources! I figured that France was the influence as even the USA was wearing blue coatees and bell crown shakos, (and using translated French drill manuals) but that Mexico would get it's weapons and uniforms from the same source.
 
Reb, I was going more on Ron's comment about about French surplus in my reply. Just looking quickly at the "internets" from your reply, I found an Alamo forum that is discussing the subject of Mexican Uniforms. Thank you again.
 
Scott said:
Reb, I was going more on Ron's comment about about French surplus in my reply. Just looking quickly at the "internets" from your reply, I found an Alamo forum that is discussing the subject of Mexican Uniforms. Thank you again.
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Well - I am glad Reb straighten you out ! ;)

I was about to ay the same thing about Santa Ana always calling himself the "Napoleon of the West" - it is also discussed in other parts about how Santa Ana would purchase FRENCH ITEMS (china,glassware, etc..) for his homes. I will go back and try to find these ref. points.

The fact that FRENCH UNIFORMS were used by Mexican Forces is a pretty well known fact. I am sure when I get a chance to find them - I can also point those ref points for you as well Scott.
 
One thing we must all remember is that Bob/UK Reb spends hours and hours of his time planning, painting/building, setting up and photographing these Diodramas and then posting the end results for our benefit. Let’s try not to piss him off by nitpicking and just enjoy the fruits of his labour.

Just my humble opinion.

Jeff
 
I'm not "Embarrassed" in the least. I used a secondary source that referenced a primary source. Reb gave me another source that he used and now I can look into that so that I will learn more. The point may be "moot" as it's possible that the troops at the Alamo were in fatigue clothing..
 
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