Early Pz.IV (2 Viewers)

[Mitch]

Blowtorch..

Thats not my quote you replied to I never said the Ausf it was that info came from Terry. I wondered about the uniform when I had another look at the tank properly a few minutes ago
Mitch

with that uniform?

 

[Blowtorch]

It could indeed be intended as a France'40 P4. Looking at the pic more closely, it looks as thought Figarti did the controversial grey/brown camo job. At first I thought it was weathering, but it looks like camo to me now.

 

[Mitch]

I have just zoomed the picture to 400% and, its looking like their brand of weathering than camo colouring
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry..

I am talking about the divisional markings. I thought, though I am probably wrong and its from memory that the X was later 41 onwards and the inverted Y was earlier. Did the 1PD not have another emblem div marking somewhat like a tree very early?? Your probably near your resources and I am going from memory but, I can't recal them being white for France
Mitch



If you mean dunkelgelb (dark yellow) that replaced grey as the base colour in February 1943. Production of Ausf D ended May 1941. Unless the Pz. IV. Ausf. D was painted a desert colour for North Afrika, it would have been grey. Figarti says it is an Ausf. D. from the Battle of France in 1940. But I don't think the simplified Division symbols (yellow inverted Y) were used in the Battle of France. I think the 1st PD symbol at the battle of France was a thick "X". It would have been repainted to the inverted Y in time for Barbarossa in June 1941.

Terry

[/QUOTE]

There is some confusion among the sources of Division insignia with the order of the X and Y reversed in some sources. And Terence Wise in one reference says the inverted Y in yellow was introduced for the Battle of France in only one (not all) of his reference books - I don't think it was used until later. This is how I think the symbols were used.

1935 - 1940

2nd Half 1940 But I think this was the symbol used in the battle of France

End of 1940 - beginning 1941

1941 - 1942 Barbarossa

1943 - 1945

Fmethorst will be able to help with this when he comes on line

Terry

 

[Mitch]

Terry..

Thats the symbol I meant I know its not a tree but, how I remembered it when I was reading about the PD when I was a kid. I think, chris Bishop in some of his works does similar. I will have to go up in the loft and have a read when I get five minutes
Mitch

There is some confusion among the sources of Division insignia with the order of the X and Y reversed in some sources. And Terence Wise in one reference says the inverted Y in yellow was introduced for the Battle of France in only one (not all) of his reference books - I don't think it was used until later. This is how I think the symbols were used.

1935 - 1940 View attachment 87736

2nd Half 1940 View attachment 87737 But I think this was the symbol used in the battle of France

End of 1940 - beginning 1941 View attachment 87739

1941 - 1942 Barbarossa View attachment 87740

1943 - 1945 View attachment 87742

Fmethorst will be able to help with this when he comes on line

Terry[/QUOTE]

 

[Blowtorch]

I have just zoomed the picture to 400% and, its looking like their brand of weathering than camo colouring
Mitch

well, if Figarti did their job right, we won't be able to tell, now will we:tongue:

 

[uksubs]

Clive from Figarti UK told me the price of both tanks is £175.00

 

[wayne556517]

Sold......................^&grin

 

[wwiibuff]

they didn't retrofit? how stubborn of them

They may have done some retrofits - I don't know. But keep in mind, the short barrel Ausf. D was the first large production number model and was soon being replace by the Ausf E which was the last of the sort barrel Pz. IV. So retrofitting an Ausf. D may not have been too common. Rather than retrofit, old Pz. IV chssis may have been used to make tank destroyers, etc.

Terry

stunning. wish it had the turret stowage bin

Unfortunately it's an Ausf D and the storage bins didn't appear until Ausf. E.

Terry

Actually some Ausf D's did in fact carry a stowage bin on the rear of the turret. Also, the Panzer IV Ausf F1 was the last short barreled Mk IV,not the Ausf E.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Actually some Ausf D's did in fact carry a stowage bin on the rear of the turret. Also, the Panzer IV Ausf F1 was the last short barreled Mk IV,not the Ausf E.

True - some did add turret stowage bins. But I'm not sure it was a factory upgrade - it may have been a field modification. The complication was the commanders cupola stuck out behind the turret. Not too common in Europe, the turret bins were more seen in North Afrika on desert models.

And the F1 was the last Pz. IV with a short barrel,

Terry

 

[blue max]

View attachment 87722

Looks GOOD . . .^&cool

I like this...Ron {sm4}

 

[Blowtorch]

True - some did add turret stowage bins. But I'm not sure it was a factory upgrade - it may have been a field modification. The complication was the commanders cupola stuck out behind the turret. Not too common in Europe, the turret bins were more seen in North Afrika on desert models.

And the F1 was the last Pz. IV with a short barrel,

Terry

You guys who are really into this stuff should get that latest PzIV book from Schiffer, vol. 2 of the Spielberger series. It is totally nuts and bolts. It is so nuts & bolts that I had to return mine to Amazon. Incredible level of detail, but too much for me to handle

 

[notascoldasbastogne]

IMO the best looking Tank to date. Perfect shade of grey, must say Figarti blew me away with all
the new stuff. {bravo}}

 

[Blowtorch]

You guys who are really into this stuff should get that latest PzIV book from Schiffer, vol. 2 of the Spielberger series. It is totally nuts and bolts. It is so nuts & bolts that I had to return mine to Amazon. Incredible level of detail, but too much for me to handle

Some excellent photo books I would heartily recommend are the four PzIV books Craig Ellis self published. Well informed captions.

He has one in particular titled Barbarossa Stowage. I stopped looking a third or the way in, but all ausf D have the bins. There's a pic of an 6PD
ausf C with a custom bin that I've never seen before

AND FIGARTI, THERE ARE ENOUGH PHOTOS IN THE F/G BOOK TO JUSTIFY A GREY IVF2!!

 

[fmethorst]

Terry..

Thats the symbol I meant I know its not a tree but, how I remembered it when I was reading about the PD when I was a kid. I think, chris Bishop in some of his works does similar. I will have to go up in the loft and have a read when I get five minutes
Mitch


There is some confusion among the sources of Division insignia with the order of the X and Y reversed in some sources. And Terence Wise in one reference says the inverted Y in yellow was introduced for the Battle of France in only one (not all) of his reference books - I don't think it was used until later. This is how I think the symbols were used.

1935 - 1940 View attachment 87736

2nd Half 1940 View attachment 87737 But I think this was the symbol used in the battle of France

End of 1940 - beginning 1941 View attachment 87739

1941 - 1942 Barbarossa View attachment 87740

1943 - 1945 View attachment 87742

Fmethorst will be able to help with this when he comes on line

Terry

[/QUOTE]

..and just to make this a little more confusing let's add the 5.Panzer-Division into the mix which also made use of the yellow X for a period. The inverted Y with points looks more like a symbol used by 4 Panzer-Division.

I have a picture of Panzer IV Ausf.D with the X symbol in one of my books captioned as being 5.Panzer-Division in France. This contradicts other information I have. At best the information I have is inconclusive. I suspect the 1.Panzer-Division wore the leaf symbol during the French Campaign.

As for the stowage bin. I can't find pictures of Ausf.Ds during the French Campaign with the stowage bin. Later in pictures of Ausf.Ds in 1941 (Barbarossa) they all appear to have stowage bins retrofitted.

While we're on the subject of details, shouldn't the Panzer Beret still be in use at this time?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

..and just to make this a little more confusing let's add the 5.Panzer-Division into the mix which also made use of the yellow X for a period. The inverted Y with points looks more like a symbol used by 4 Panzer-Division.

I have a picture of Panzer IV Ausf.D with the X symbol in one of my books captioned as being 5.Panzer-Division in France. This contradicts other information I have. At best the information I have is inconclusive. I suspect the 1.Panzer-Division wore the leaf symbol during the French Campaign.

[/QUOTE]

And to further increase the confusion:

Here is the 4th Division symbol looking similar to the pointy 1st Division symbol. It was used by 4th Div. in 1939.

And symbols used by 5th Pz. Div. were 1940

And for 1941-1945

Terry

 

[Mitch]

I will be skipping this release.
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I will be skipping this release.
Mitch

Really? It looks like a very good model.

Terry

 

[jazzeum]

It looks tremendous. May have to think about this.

 

[Vezzolf]

Well Done Figarti.... an Excellent Model...Grey is GOOD^&grin^&grin......{bravo}}{bravo}}