First Legion: PanzerIII (3 Viewers)

[Mitch]

Gebhard...

I would think that it was a necessity in a battle like Stalingrad and, you would not have time to get the ammo out into the machine gun and fire in the house to house fighting there. Just a note that it would have looked better in place than not, I suppose every comapny is indeed fallible.
I do not really like the figure but, having looked on the web site I am going to place an order so, it will be nice to talk about the tank when I get one
Mitch

Was it procedure to have one of the 50 round drum mags mounted to a machine gun that was not being used ? I've never been a crewman before but I would think that the ammo for this gun would be stowed safely inside with the rest of the Ammunition until needed . If the crewman figure was posed in a firing position then I would be right with ya saying Matt were is the ammo , But I don't think that is the case . About the figure I guess that's a matter of taste some will like it some won't . I think he is accurately rendered right down to the most beloved Toque ... but to each his own Happy collecting Gebhard

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I don't think that MG was used much in street fighting. .it would have totally exposed the commander to snipers. It was really for AA use in open areas and probably was not even mounted in an urban area.

If I was doing a display inside an urban area, the tank would be buttoned up with the MG not mounted. Outside the city, I would display it with the commander in the hatch and the MG mounted - in that case I would prefer the MG to have a drum mounted.

Terry

 

[Mitch]

Agree with the points you made but, it should have at least been attached IMO
Mitch

I don't think that MG was used much in street fighting. .it would have totally exposed the commander to snipers. It was really for AA use in open areas and probably was not even mounted in an urban area.

If I was doing a display inside an urban area, the tank would be buttoned up with the MG not mounted. Outside the city, I would display it with the commander in the hatch and the MG mounted - in that case I would prefer the MG to have a drum mounted.

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

Agree with the points you made but, it should have at least been attached IMO
Mitch

Sorry, Mitch, don't mean to argue with you, but from our research an AAMG would rarely to never be mounted with a drum clip. You seem to be extremely caught up on this one point, but my advice is to take a look at the vehicle up close in all of it's details and then tell me if there is anything that even comes close to matching it.

Mat

 

[Blowtorch]

I don't think that MG was used much in street fighting. .it would have totally exposed the commander to snipers. It was really for AA use in open areas and probably was not even mounted in an urban area.

It's true, I dont' think there is a photo of a panzer in the 'grad with an AAMG. More likely mounted out on the steppe for aircraft & infantry suppression. Against an IL-2 I wouldn't even waste 7.62 ammo

 

[fmethorst]

Was it procedure to have one of the 50 round drum mags mounted to a machine gun that was not being used ? I've never been a crewman before but I would think that the ammo for this gun would be stowed safely inside with the rest of the Ammunition until needed . If the crewman figure was posed in a firing position then I would be right with ya saying Matt were is the ammo , But I don't think that is the case . About the figure I guess that's a matter of taste some will like it some won't . I think he is accurately rendered right down to the most beloved Toque ... but to each his own Happy collecting Gebhard

The AA MG would generally only be mounted on the march and in "safe" areas. It was not a third MG but rather a repositioning of one of the other two MGs (either turret or hull). The standard AA mounting was "Fliegerbeschussgerat 41/42" .

The MG34 feed mechanism was not very powerful and attempting to fire the weapon with a long belt hanging from the feed block could lead to malfunctions. Some options to deal with this issue are the "Gurtsack" which is a canvas bag which holds 150 rounds (3 x 50 round belts joined together), the "Gurttrommel" a drum magaine which holds 1 x 50 round belt and the discontinued "Patronentrommel" a double drum magazine which holds 75 rounds (no belt).

I understand FL's desire to add the MG as an extra detail but considering its normal tactical employment it seems highly improbable that any of these would have been mounted in the city fighting.

 

[Gebhard]

The AA MG would generally only be mounted on the march and in "safe" areas. It was not a third MG but rather a repositioning of one of the other two MGs (either turret or hull). The standard AA mounting was "Fleigerbeschussgerat 41/42" .

The MG34 feed mechanism was not very powerful and attempting to fire the weapon with a long belt hanging from the feed block could lead to malfunctions. Some options to deal with this issue are the "Gurtsack" which is a canvas bag which holds 150 rounds (3 x 50 round belts joined together), the "Gurttrommel" a drum magaine which holds 1 x 50 round belt and the discontinued "Patronentrommel" a double drum magazine which holds 75 rounds (no belt).

I understand FL's desire to add the MG as an extra detail but considering its normal tactical employment it seems highly improbable that any of these would have been mounted in the city fighting.

I'm very familiar of the MG34 and 42 but thanks for the review . I can tell you from first hand experience they are prone to jamming . Not really sure what your comments have to do with my post but its some good information with some good Vokabular thanks . Anyhow In my post I was addressing Mitch's concern of a " missing drum magazine " . I'm not sure what Matt has in mind for this release , but with the position of the Crewmen I felt that the MG34 looked fine with no ammo . Like mentioned in my post if the crewman was in a firing position.... I would be of a differing opinion . As I'm sure you know a 50 round drum mag would be of little use when used in a AA roll and would not have even been contemplated All the best Gebhard

 

[fmethorst]

I'm very familiar of the MG34 and 42 but thanks for the review . I can tell you from first hand experience they are prone to jamming . Not really sure what your comments have to do with my post but its some good information with some good Vokabular thanks . Anyhow In my post I was addressing Mitch's concern of a " missing drum magazine " . I'm not sure what Matt has in mind for this release , but with the position of the Crewmen I felt that the MG34 looked fine with no ammo . Like mentioned in my post if the crewman was in a firing position.... I would be of a differing opinion . As I'm sure you know a 50 round drum mag would be of little use when used in a AA roll and would not have even been contemplated All the best Gebhard

After rereading your orginal post I agree my reply was incomplete. My thought regarding attached ammo is this. While I believe the gun is OK either way I think that if the gun was fully deployed and ready for action it would have one of the three ammunition carriers I discussed above.

The MG34, or any rifle caliber MG, would have been of limited use in the AA role in WWII.

 

[FirstLegion]

I thought I'd post some info on the source of why we did the AA MG the way we did. My source was Achtung Panzer #2, which was the source for many of the details of the version we did.

Here is the AA MG setup as shown in there:

As you can see, this was unofficial equipment, field applied. Here it is shown on an actual tank in the Bovington tank museum:

Ours uses the bipod mount configuration. The one in the museum is an ad hoc mount.

Please note that this was prior to the introduction of the Fliegerbeschussgerat 41/42, which wasn't produced until 1943 and would only have been on the N model. Here is that mounting shown from the same book:

Note, the MG is shown as belt fed. Of course, other configurations such as those mentioned by Frank or even a drum could have been used. But in our depiction, as Gebhard pointed out, the MG is not being used and thus isn't loaded. It's just hanging.

My thinking when adding this extra MG to our model, beyond that I thought it was interesting and, as Frank said, is an extra detail for the model, was that it would be a third MG, not a repositioning of one of the other two. Given the extremely high losses suffered by the 14th and 24th Panzer Divisions, it is very likely that there were extra LMGs salvaged from otherwise destroyed vehicles. Glanz's Armageddon at Stalingrad gives some exact numbers of tanks for these divisions at various points in the battle and they're appallingly low even as early as mid-September.

Whether or not it would actually be used while engaged in urban combat, I'll leave that for you all to debate. However, the armor at Stalingrad fought outside the city as well, particularly in the early and, most appropriately, the late stages of the battle as losses continued to mount and the balance of air power shifted towards the Soviets.

Best,

Matt

 

[Mitch]

Thanks for all the info. Gebhard, my initial point was that the drum magazine which, was prefered by tank commanders for the reasons stated (jamming etc and the difficulty of belt feeding an MG whilst firing it a preference to drum was preferable by Tank crew.

A 50 round drum may not be much use for AA which, was the reason for the introduction of the 75 round though added work was needed to convert the gun. My initial point was that it should have been armed. To say, in a war, its not in use is not sufficient IMO and, could be needed at the drop of a hat. I note a post about snipers so, commander would not use it well fair play, however, we I am sure have all see pics where a TC is firing the MG at ground targets.

It was never a critcism of detail etc but, should have been addressed by the manufacturer when placing an MG on the turret cupola IMO
Mitch

 

[Spitfrnd]

Thanks for all the info. Gebhard, my initial point was that the drum magazine which, was prefered by tank commanders for the reasons stated (jamming etc and the difficulty of belt feeding an MG whilst firing it a preference to drum was preferable by Tank crew.

A 50 round drum may not be much use for AA which, was the reason for the introduction of the 75 round though added work was needed to convert the gun. My initial point was that it should have been armed. To say, in a war, its not in use is not sufficient IMO and, could be needed at the drop of a hat. I note a post about snipers so, commander would not use it well fair play, however, we I am sure have all see pics where a TC is firing the MG at ground targets.

It was never a critcism of detail etc but, should have been addressed by the manufacturer when placing an MG on the turret cupola IMO
Mitch

In all fairness, it has been addressed now by explanation. You may prefer an different solution but that solution does not seem to anything more than an option. In my parlance, asked and answered my friend. Obviously we all have the right to our preferences, as long as we remember what they are.

 

[Mitch]

Spitfrnd....

Its an issue that I thought should be raised and, its not my preference I just believed it should have had a drum magazine or, pouch or, be completely covered. Its a flaw may be small but, IMO its a flaw.
Mitch

.l

In all fairness, it has been addressed now by explanation. You may prefer an different solution but that solution does not seem to anything more than an option. In my parlance, asked and answered my friend. Obviously we all have the right to our preferences, as long as we remember what they are.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Spitfrnd....

Its an issue that I thought should be raised and, its not my preference I just believed it should have had a drum magazine or, pouch or, be completely covered. Its a flaw may be small but, IMO its a flaw.
Mitch

.l

True Mitch but as you properly note and others have observed, there are contrary "opinions" which to me suggests it less a flaw than a judgement with which you disagree.

 

[Mitch]

Spitfrnd....

Not a disagreement just an observation
Mitch

True Mitch but as you properly note and others have observed, there are contrary "opinions" which to me suggests it less a flaw than a judgement with which you disagree.

 

[Vezzolf]

.....

......First Legion's PanzerIII ....Amazing Detail.....This is without a doubt the best WWII Tank produced by anyone to date......

 

[Vezzolf]

..........Amazing

 

[sammy719]

.....

......First Legion's PanzerIII ....Amazing Detail.....This is without a doubt the best WWII Tank produced by anyone to date......

Man, love those trees!!!! just kiddn, I look forward to seeing this tank in person hopefully next month sometime, just the detail in pictures look great!!! but I do like your backyard, and all the beautiful trees...Sammy

 

[Vezzolf]

Man, love those trees!!!! just kiddn, I look forward to seeing this tank in person hopefully next month sometime, just the detail in pictures look great!!! but I do like your backyard, and all the beautiful trees...Sammy

Thanks Man...God Bless....This is a great tank Sammy, you'll love it...Best Regards Frank

 

[Gebhard]

..........Amazing

Just a suggestion but it will look even better when you take the four pieces of packing foam from above the track Gebhard

 

[Vezzolf]

Just a suggestion but it will look even better when you take the four pieces of packing foam from above the track Gebhard

Yes,That's a good idea....Thank you