First Legion Stug III Ausf F/8 (2 Viewers)

[Phantom Warrior]

This is from Jean Restayn in his JJF "The Battle of Kharkov" book:

"In previous publications, the vehicles involved in the Kharkov operation, espcially those of the SS Panzer Korps, were portrayed as being finished in panzergrau with winter camouflage applied to it.

[snip]

Besides that, from the summer and fall of 1942 on, practically all new vehicles were delivered to the front in dunkelgelb.

A filmed parade of the 1.SS LAH on the Champs Elysee in Paris (June '42) shows both older Panzer IVF2s in panzergrau as well as new StuGIIIF8s in dunkelgelb.

Starting in the Spring of 1942, all vehicles were supposed to have camouflage applied to the panzergrau base paint with supplemental colors consisting of either dunkelgelb, braun (RAL 8017), or Luftwaffe olivgruen."

Now I'm not saying he's completely correct, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. However, looking at lots of photos of 1942 leads me to believe that most (but not all) PzIII/IV long & StuGIII long were in base yellow (or sand), the Tigers were definitely in grey, Marders were definitely in grey.

I hope some author tackles this in the future

I think that is much closer to the truth. All AFVs were painted grey in the factory until the factory switched to mostly (but not entirely) dunkelgelb well in advance of the official order that all AFVs were to be painted dunkelgelb. The exception were some vehicles destined for the south Caucasus which were painted in desert colours and possibly some originally intended for North Afrika.

A dunkelgelb base coat thinly applied, faded by the sun and covered in dust can look quite light coloured and difficult to tell from desert camo, especially in old black and white photos. It is also hard to see the dark brown and olive green disruptive colours on the dark grey basecoat in the old photos.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

It is certainly conceivable that regulation H.M. 1943 Nr.181 merely "made official" a process that had begun in earnest several months earlier. The answer could only be known if the factories kept records of the base coat applied. I have no idea if this was done but I suspect not. Without an official regulation it was probably a combination of requests from OKW/OKH, the factory involved, the intended destination and the availability of paint that determined what color the vehicle left the factory in.

If you refer back to the Chory excerpts he makes the statement "The solution was coming with the change already in full preparation." which generally aligns with what is being said here.

That JJF book "The Battle of Kharkov" is excellent as are the two books Jean Restayn and Nicole Moller did on Operation Citadel. The latter two debunk a lot of the misconceptions of Kursk.

 

[fmethorst]

Sturmgeschütze vor!

A drawing and various pictures of Stug III Ausf.F/F8 with different base colors and camouflage.

Light base color. Dunkelgelb, RAL8020, Other?

Light base color with dark camouflage colors appllied? ...or dark base color with light camouflage color applied?

Dark base color. Dunkelgrau RAL7021?

Light base color with two shades of camouflage color appllied. Dunkelgelb with green and brown? Note how fine the pattern is.

Light base color. Dunkelgelb, RAL8020, Other?

Light base color. Dunkelgelb, RAL8020, Other? The officer is Heinz Guderian. Note the single baffle muzzle brake.

Dark base color. Dunkelgrau RAL7021?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Sturmgeschütze vor!

A drawing and various pictures of Stug III Ausf.F/F8 with different base colors and camouflage.

Light base color. Dunkelgelb, RAL8020, Other?

Light base color with dark camouflage colors appllied? ...or dark base color with light camouflage color applied?

Dark base color. Dunkelgrau RAL7021?

Light base color with two shades of camouflage color appllied. Dunkelgelb with green and brown? Note how fine the pattern is.

Light base color. Dunkelgelb, RAL8020, Other?

Light base color. Dunkelgelb, RAL8020, Other? The officer is Heinz Guderian. Note the single baffle muzzle brake.

Dark base color. Dunkelgrau RAL7021?

Of the photos I feel I can see the camo clearly enough, Photo 3 looks like a classic Dunkelgelb base with 1 or 2 disruptive colours; Photo 4 looks like plain grey; Photo 5 looks like a Dunkelgelb base with 2 disruptive colours in a spotted pattern; Photo 6 looks like an overexposed Dunkelgelb with a disruptive colour (look closely at the side of the gun mantlet and around the German cross); Photo 7 looks like dunkelgelb; photo 8 looks like dark grey.

Terry

 

[Andanna]

Great photos, Frank.

Matt, please notice that on Frank's photo no. 6, the gun has a different color (redbrown?). It would be great if we could have a StuG version with a differently colored gun - I am not aware any mass-manufacturer does that.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Great photos, Frank.

Matt, please notice that on Frank's photo no. 6, the gun has a different color (redbrown?). It would be great if we could have a StuG version with a differently colored gun - I am not aware any mass-manufacturer does that.

The gun in photo 6 could be the same colour as on the side of the gun mantlet and around the German cross - braun or olive grun

Dragon has made some 1/72 armour with dark gun barrels.

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

You guys are really putting the pressure on with all of this stug talk, photos, talk of paint schemes etc.... I just hope the final model meets expectations as I can't think of a single model vehicle that has undergone this level of scrutiny and historical discussion prior to its release!

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

 

[Phantom Warrior]

You guys are really putting the pressure on with all of this stug talk, photos, talk of paint schemes etc.... I just hope the final model meets expectations as I can't think of a single model vehicle that has undergone this level of scrutiny and historical discussion prior to its release!

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

You are OK to do almost any colour, Dunkelgelb, desert or grey. Can't miss. And will the Stug be at Chicago?

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

You guys are really putting the pressure on with all of this stug talk, photos, talk of paint schemes etc.... I just hope the final model meets expectations as I can't think of a single model vehicle that has undergone this level of scrutiny and historical discussion prior to its release!

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

True, but the cool thing is your product seems up to task. The figures certainly were.

 

[FirstLegion]

True, but the cool thing is your product seems up to task. The figures certainly were.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. We'll certainly find out soon enough!

 

[canucks]

interesting pictures.......Great shots.......Post more please when you can.....
Regards,
Canucks

 

[Blowtorch]

I can't think of a single model vehicle that has undergone this level of scrutiny and historical discussion prior to its release!

I think you've already exceeded expectations.

The above discussion simply eminates from people who have been starved for years of what toys they want to buy...so we buy books instead.

Personally, I think history has been made on your forum. I have never seen this kind of modelling analysis for 1942 Russia on any scale model forum.

Let's face it, there's been tons of German panzer books published over the last dozen years, but when you subtract out Tiger tanks & W-SS themes, you have surprisingly little left.

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

Gee this is a great tank .It will be hard not to convert over just to get Russian tanks.I am being strong and holding out but how long can I last.Simmo.

 

[uksubs]

I would buy one if they made a King tiger

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I would buy one if they made a King tiger

Well, you won't get one in the Stalingrad series. King Tigers weren't built until 1943. So unless FL makes a stand alone piece, a King Tiger will have to wait until FL does a later war series.

Terry

 

[uksubs]

Well, you won't get one in the Stalingrad series. King Tigers weren't built until 1943. So unless FL makes a stand alone piece, a King Tiger will have to wait until FL does a later war series.

Terry

I think your find King tigers did not come operational till June 1944 Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I think your find King tigers did not come operational till June 1944 Terry

Correct, approximately. 485 King Tigers were built from December 1943 to March 1945. They became operational in early 1944, but I don't know when exactly. Some were available in June 1944 at Normandy so they must have been operational before June. Panzer Lehr Division was issued ten Tiger I in September-October 1943 and five Tiger II in February-March 1944 Panzer Lehr fought near Caen in June 1944.

There were certainly none at Stalingrad

 

[uksubs]

Correct, approximately. 485 King Tigers were built from December 1943 to March 1945. They became operational in early 1944, but I don't know when exactly. Some were available in June 1944 at Normandy so they must have been operational before June. Panzer Lehr Division was issued ten Tiger I in September-October 1943 and five Tiger II in February-March 1944 Panzer Lehr fought near Caen in June 1944.

There were certainly none at Stalingrad

Who said there were King tigers at Stalingrad

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Who said there were King tigers at Stalingrad

No one. You said if FL made a king tiger, you would buy it and I said that would have to wait for a later series as there were no king tigers at Stalingrad, the series they are currently on

Terry

 

[uksubs]

No one. You said if FL made a king tiger, you would buy it and I said that would have to wait for a later series as there were no king tigers at Stalingrad, the series they are currently on

Terry

What tank would you like to see next Terry