First Legion Stug III Ausf F/8 (1 Viewer)

[Blowtorch]

Terry,

I got this out of Jentz's Panzertruppen Vol.1:

At the beginning of the 1942 Summer offensive, these were the modern panzer strengths in the units.

PzIII long / PzIV long

AG North & Center: 0 / 12
AG South 545 / 135

This is the point I'm getting at. All of the new equipment was intended for the southern offensive in 1942. I am really beginning to suspect Grey on new vehicles was extremely rare in 1942 USSR.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry,

I got this out of Jentz's Panzertruppen Vol.1:

At the beginning of the 1942 Summer offensive, these were the modern panzer strengths in the units.

PzIII long / PzIV long

AG North & Center: 0 / 12
AG South 545 / 135

This is the point I'm getting at. All of the new equipment was intended for the southern offensive in 1942. I am really beginning to suspect Grey on new vehicles was extremely rare in 1942 USSR.

Do you mean Army Group North and Centre had only 12 tanks with long barreled anti-tank guns in the Summer of 1942? Tiger production didn't even begin until August 1942 and the introduction of Panthers was even later. These numbers seem out of context. I don't know what these numbers are referring to. Or why you would assume all new tanks were being painted desert colours.

According to Achtung Panzer starting in spring of 1942, vehicles used in the southern parts of Russia, were often painted brown (dark sand) (RAL 8020) and dark (panzer) grey (RAL 7021) in a 70/30 ratio. But not all new tanks and stugs were intended for southern Russia and not all of the ones meant for southern Russia were necessarily painted brown and dark grey. In February 1943, by the order of OKH, dark grey was officially replaced by dark yellow (RAL 7028) as the base colour for all German vehicles but there is evidence discussed earlier in this thread (I think) that dunkelgelb replaced the grey much earlier than the official order. Grey was the predominant basecoat until it was replaced by Dunkelgelb.

Terry

 

[Blowtorch]

Do you mean Army Group North and Centre had only 12 tanks with long barreled anti-tank guns in the Summer of 1942?
Terry

Yep.

You never know...maybe they were overcompensated with defensive weapons like Pak40's

 

[fmethorst]

Do you mean Army Group North and Centre had only 12 tanks with long barreled anti-tank guns in the Summer of 1942? Tiger production didn't even begin until August 1942 and the introduction of Panthers was even later. These numbers seem out of context. I don't know what these numbers are referring to. Or why you would assume all new tanks were being painted desert colours.

According to Achtung Panzer starting in spring of 1942, vehicles used in the southern parts of Russia, were often painted brown (dark sand) (RAL 8020) and dark (panzer) grey (RAL 7021) in a 70/30 ratio. But not all new tanks and stugs were intended for southern Russia and not all of the ones meant for southern Russia were necessarily painted brown and dark grey. In February 1943, by the order of OKH, dark grey was officially replaced by dark yellow (RAL 7028) as the base colour for all German vehicles but there is evidence discussed earlier in this thread (I think) that dunkelgelb replaced the grey much earlier than the official order. Grey was the predominant basecoat until it was replaced by Dunkelgelb.

Terry

Tomas Chory's Camouflage Colors: Wehrmacht Heer 1939-1945 has this to say:

"...The armored vehicles taking part in Unternehmen Barbarossa were without exception camouflaged in Dunkelgrau. During the summer the vehicles were covered by a thick layer of dust. Some photographs show vehicles covered with light colored dust in such a way that they seem to be sprayed with a light camouflage color. In the autumn their camouflage was complemented by layers of mud, which was always plentiful on the Russian roads..."

"...The advance of the Army proved to be slower than planned and the first snow began to appear as early as October. The official regulation specifiying winter camouflage was issued on November 18, 1941 (H.M. 1941, Nr. 1128) it stated: Units in Norway, on the Finish front and in Russia may camouflage their vehicles (including automobiles) with a camouflaging white paint during the time when the ground is snow covered. The decision to use it rests with the commander of each unit. Use the washable camouflage paint according to the changed technical delivery specifications 6345. The units can order the paint with their other supplies from the quartermaster depot. The paint is applied over the current dark grey paint and is removed when the snow thaws.

This white emulsion paint, which could be diluted with water, was eminently suitable for the winter conditions. Even when it froze like a rock (at minus -40 C) it could have been used after thawing. When completely dried the paint was resistant to rubbing and rain and had to be removed mechanically, by brushes, wood shavings or straw, in combination with soda water. Its removal did not damage the underlying paint. It is quite probable that during the hard 1941-1942 winter it was not possible to supply the units with this paint in any appreciable amount due to very severe supply problems..."

"...The crews, like their comrades in Africa, had to improvise and use all the available resources. A very popular whitewash was a lime solution applied with brushes or brooms in various variants. In an emergency chalk or white bed sheets were used. Some vehicles were not camouflaged at all and remained in the dark grey paint which contrasted strongly with the white background..."

"...With the coming of the spring of 1942 the appearance of the German vehicles was very informal. Their original grey paint was covered with mud and incompletely removed whitewash. The countryside began to green and the need for an additional camouflage color, which would allow the vehicles to melt into the surrounding countryside, was sorely felt. On several contemporary photographs there are vehicles with various color patches on a grey background. One such color could have been green, a little darker when compared to the bleached Dunkelgrau. If we consult the offical color register of the Wehrmacht we will find only one green that could have been used, the good old Grun Nr.28 (RAL6007), used as a standard camouflage color betwen 1923-1937. As we shall see later its use during the Second World War was much wider than expected even though this is not mentioned in any offical regulation. It is also possible that other prewar colors were used such as Erdgelb Nr.17, Braun Nr.18 and Dunkelbraun Nr.45 because they were still available in sufficient amounts. During the summer the German army renewed its attack and the battles moved to southern Russia, where the climate and vegetation resembled the Mediterranean. It is obvious that vehicles originally meant for use in Africa and camouflaged in the "desert" colors were sent to the eastern front. This is supported by yellow painted vehicles photographed in Russia in the autumn of 1942. It was getting increasingly obvious that the current camouflaging system was not suitable. The solution was coming with the change already in full preparation. This change influenced the camouflage system of all the army units of the Wehrmacht. The second winter in Russia limited the improvisations due to the ample supply of the white color. From the beginning of 1943, new vehicles from Germany were sent to the front already painted white..."

"...The expected change in camouflaging system happened in February of 1943. The OKH regulation H.M. 1943 Nr.181 from February 18th specified the following:

1. Painting of the vehicles: The current camouflage system dark grey/dark brown, which was changed during the war to dark grey only, and brow-grey colors specified for units stationed in Africa and on Crete, are to be immediately replaced by dark yellow color according to the standard. The RAL register number for this dark yellow will be assigned later.

The regulation also mentioned that small items, which were part of the vehicles' equipment (such as radio sets, crates for supplies, boxes with tools, boxes of veterinary vehicles and boxes for documents were to be left in their original color. This regulation specified, as did H.M. 1941 Nr.281, the types of paints for different uses (P-Paints, W-Paints etc.). From a camouflage point of view paragraph 2 is important:

2. Camouflage paint: Camouflaging the vehicles by applying the proper colors depending on field conditions is the responsibility of the units. The units will use camouflage pastes of the following colors: olive green from the register R.L.M. (camouflaging of buildings and ground installations), red-brown RAL8017, dark yellow according to a standard (see paragraph 1).

Paragraph 3 contains a table specifiying recommended usage of the pastes for the various types of vehicles. The constant need to economize is supported by the following paragraph:

3. The camouflage paints are supplied in 2kg and 20kg containers. The total needed by a unit must be rounded to a number divisible by 2. If the total exceeds 20kg the unit will first draw 20kg containers and the rest in 2kg increments. Due to the current situation of raw materials availability, manufacturing and transport, it is necessary to use paints and the camouflage pastes conscientiously abd limit there use to a bare minimum.

Paragraph 4 describes the application of the camouflage:

4. The unit decides the style of color patches to be used for camouflaging. It is important to divide the silhouette of the vehicle visibly by the use of different colors. Typically, larger color patches applied without any regularity (the "cloud style") are getting the best results. The camouflage pastes can be used in their original state or after dilution with water or gasoline. They can be applied with paint brushes or by auxiliary equipment (regular brushes, rags etc.). The paint drys in a short time; they are also suitable for camouflaging trucks' canvas covers. They can be removed with gasoline..."

It is increasingly apparent to me that, with the exception of the last few months of the war, 1942 is likely the most difficult year to pin down vehicle colors.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Yep.

You never know...maybe they were overcompensated with defensive weapons like Pak40's

The numbers for Army Group North and Centre just don't seem possible.

In the first half of 1942 Germany produced more than 1,000 Panzer IIIs with the long barreled 50 mm gun and 237 Panzer IV with the 75mm long barreled gun. Here is some data on tank strength in 1942.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=g2B...v=onepage&q=panzer tank strength 1942&f=false

Fmethorst says 1942 was the most difficult period to determine armour camo, and I completely agree with him. There were so many variations possible, some in only very small numbers.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Yep.

You never know...maybe they were overcompensated with defensive weapons like Pak40's

Yes, they did have to rely more on defensive anti-tank weapons as the 37mm and even 50mm long barreled guns on the Panzer IIIs were not very effective against the T-34. But anti-tank guns exclusively do not make good offensive weapons. The Panzer III with the 50 mm gun was Germany's main battle tank in the first half of 1942. A single division would have more than 12.

Terry

 

[lancer]

I want to says thanks to all of the members who have been engaged in this armament/camo discussion. It has been incredibly interesting and informative. I have learned a great deal more on this subject than I had known. -- lancer

 

[Blowtorch]

The numbers for Army Group North and Centre just don't seem possible.

A good guess is that they got more of the new Pak40's & Self Propelled Panzer Jaegers (Marders)...plus they still had the surviving old Panzers from the Winter

The Panzer Divs in AG North/Center had only 1 battalion each. AG South PD's had 3 battalions each; plus all the Motorized IDs were in the south & had each been given a battalion each.

 

[Louis Badolato]

I want to says thanks to all of the members who have been engaged in this armament/camo discussion. It has been incredibly interesting and informative. I have learned a great deal more on this subject than I had known. -- lancer

I also extend my thanks. I learn more on this forum than I ever did in school.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

A good guess is that they got more of the new Pak40's & Self Propelled Panzer Jaegers (Marders)...plus they still had the surviving old Panzers from the Winter

The Panzer Divs in AG North/Center had only 1 battalion each. AG South PD's had 3 battalions each; plus all the Motorized IDs were in the south & had each been given a battalion each.

Perhaps the author was referring to the 50mm L42 as a short barreled Panzer III and to the 50mm L60 as the long barrel? Could you check into the source and figure out how he defined short barrel? Short barrel usually referred to the 75mm howitzer used on later and re-equipped Panzer IIIs.

I will look into 1942 orders of battle and equipment for Panzer IIIs, but it will take a bit of time. Fmethorst may have some of this data and perhaps he will help?

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

I found this chart in one of my Osprey books which might answer the question. Information on how to read it is at the bottom.

The only problem is unit attachment isn't included. This can be cross referenced here though.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/Gliederung.htm

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I found this chart in one of my Osprey books which should answer the question. Information on how to read it is at the bottom.

The only problem is unit attachment isn't included. This can be cross referenced here though.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/Gliederung.htm

Thanks Frank. You beat me to it. But I did compile the data.

There were 22 Panzer Divisions on the Eastern Front in June 1942. The table is of "Operational" tanks, so there were more damaged and in repair not included in these totals.

There were 788 Panzer III Ausf K with the 50mm L42 gun and 438 Panzer III Ausf L with the 50mm L60 gun operational. 12 of the 22 Panzer Divisions had Panzer III with the L60 gun. Many of these divisions were moved to Army Group South in Jan - Mar 1942 and then back to Army Groups A, B and Centre in July -August. The 6th and 7th were part of Army Group Centre until March/May then went to Army Group D.

If the Author saying there were no long barreled Panzer IIIs (L42 and L60) in Army Group North and Centre, he is clearly wrong. I suspect he may be talking about only the L60 gun, but there were some in army groups other than AG South before during and after June 1942. The Ausf L was produced from late 1941- mid 1942. Clearly not all of them were intended for the Caucasus and painted in desert camo.

Terry

 

[Blowtorch]

Yeah, that's Jentz rewritten. The numbers will add up the same (though the motorized IDs are missing)

 

[Blowtorch]

At the beginning of Summer 1942, AG South Blue offensive units were Panzer Divs 3, 9, 11, 13, 14, 16, 22, 23, 24; motorized IDs 3, 16, 29, 60, GrossD, SS Wiking

 

[Phantom Warrior]

At the beginning of Summer 1942, AG South Blue offensive units were Panzer Divs 3, 9, 11, 13, 14, 16, 22, 23, 24;

Those were the divisions with a large number of L60 guns so he must have been calling the 50mmL42 short barreled. But most of those units were shifted to the south for a few months in 1942 for the summer offensive and then back to their earlier AG. Only a few divisions with L60 were "permanently" in the south caucasus and would have had desert camo.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

Thanks Frank. You beat me to it. But I did compile the data.

There were 22 Panzer Divisions on the Eastern Front in June 1942. The table is of "Operational" tanks, so there were more damaged and in repair not included in these totals.

There were 788 Panzer III Ausf K with the 50mm L42 gun and 438 Panzer III Ausf L with the 50mm L60 gun operational. 12 of the 22 Panzer Divisions had Panzer III with the L60 gun. Many of these divisions were moved to Army Group South in Jan - Mar 1942 and then back to Army Groups A, B and Centre in July -August. The 6th and 7th were part of Army Group Centre until March/May then went to Army Group D.

If the Author saying there were no long barreled Panzer IIIs (L42 and L60) in Army Group North and Centre, he is clearly wrong. I suspect he may be talking about only the L60 gun, but there were some in army groups other than AG South before during and after June 1942. The Ausf L was produced from late 1941- mid 1942. Clearly not all of them were intended for the Caucasus and painted in desert camo.

Terry

Terry,

The way I understand it is the short and long designation applies to the 50mm gun variants only. In other words the 50mm L42 is Kurz (short) and the L60 Lange (long), similar to the 75mm gun on the Panzer IV.

The Ausf.K was a Pz.Bef.Wg (command tank) variant of which only 50 were built.

A total of 2616 Ausf.Js were produced between March 41 and July 1942. Of these the first 1549 mounted the L42 gun. Starting in December 1941 this model transitioned to the L60 gun. From June-December 1942 653 Ausf.Ls were produced which also carried the L60. The last model to carry this gun was the Ausf.M of which 250 were produced.

 

[Blowtorch]

btw, that's a cool book. I ordered it today

 

[Phantom Warrior]

btw, that's a cool book. I ordered it today

Yes it is. It contains a lot of useful info and a good summary of the Easten campaigns.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry,

The way I understand it is the short and long designation applies to the 50mm gun variants only. In other words the 50mm L42 is Kurz (short) and the L60 Lange (long), similar to the 75mm gun on the Panzer IV.

The Ausf.K was a Pz.Bef.Wg (command tank) variant of which only 50 were built.

A total of 2616 Ausf.Js were produced between March 41 and July 1942. Of these the first 1549 mounted the L42 gun. Starting in December 1941 this model transitioned to the L60 gun. From June-December 1942 653 Ausf.Ls were produced which also carried the L60. The last model to carry this gun was the Ausf.M of which 250 were produced.

Thanks Frank. I actually meant Ausf J - i mistakenly hit the K key next to the J key and didn't notice.

Terry

 

[Blowtorch]

Tomas Chory's Camouflage Colors: Wehrmacht Heer 1939-1945 has this to say:

.

This is from Jean Restayn in his JJF "The Battle of Kharkov" book:

"In previous publications, the vehicles involved in the Kharkov operation, espcially those of the SS Panzer Korps, were portrayed as being finished in panzergrau with winter camouflage applied to it.

[snip]

Besides that, from the summer and fall of 1942 on, practically all new vehicles were delivered to the front in dunkelgelb.

A filmed parade of the 1.SS LAH on the Champs Elysee in Paris (June '42) shows both older Panzer IVF2s in panzergrau as well as new StuGIIIF8s in dunkelgelb.

Starting in the Spring of 1942, all vehicles were supposed to have camouflage applied to the panzergrau base paint with supplemental colors consisting of either dunkelgelb, braun (RAL 8017), or Luftwaffe olivgruen."

Now I'm not saying he's completely correct, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. However, looking at lots of photos of 1942 leads me to believe that most (but not all) PzIII/IV long & StuGIII long were in base yellow (or sand), the Tigers were definitely in grey, Marders were definitely in grey.

I hope some author tackles this in the future