First Legion Stug III Ausf F/8 (1 Viewer)

[Phantom Warrior]

Actually the book that gives the best pictures (although in B&W) is "Angriff: The German Attack on Stalingrad in Photos" (Jason D. Mark).

I thought I'd throw another curve ball into the whole mix after coming across this picture:

In this one it really looks as if the Stug has two different colors applied. Look to the area around the Balkenkreuz.

Lastly here is one more picture of a long barreled Stug in Stalingrad:

In the 1st photo, if the base coat was schwartzgrau, they would add blotches of dunkelgelb. if the basecoat was dunkelgelb, splotches of olive green and/or chocklate brown would be applied.

The second photo is of a stug and is available in many sources and taken from several angles. The snapshot in time of the roster of Ab 177, Ab 244 and Ab 245 showed only 7 long barelled stugs in Stalingrad at that time.

Terry

 

[aujj65]

I've been following this thread and find it most interesting, especially the photo's of the different versions of the Stug.

Thanks for everyones input.

Jeff

 

[IXEC]

Actually the book that gives the best pictures (although in B&W) is "Angriff: The German Attack on Stalingrad in Photos" (Jason D. Mark).

I thought I'd throw another curve ball into the whole mix after coming across this picture:

In this one it really looks as if the Stug has two different colors applied. Look to the area around the Balkenkreuz.

This led me to some pictures from the ""Angriff" book depicting field improvised camouflage:

Improvised camouflage was the name of the game initially in North Africa.

While I was looking at some color DAK pictures I came across a couple good ones.

While this Kubelwagen is heavily covered in dust an idea of the underlying color can be surmised from the tops of the doors. This appears to be a relatively dark yellow/brown. My guess would be RAL 8000

In this second picture the color can be seen along the tops of the doors and inside the vehicle. This color appear lighter than the previous picture so perhaps it is RAL 8020 or perhaps it is simply more faded.

Lastly here is one more picture of a long barreled Stug in Stalingrad:

Ahhh...Frank you found it.

The last photo in this series is the Stug Color photo I have, that's it.

Cheers

 

[IXEC]

In the 1st photo, if the base coat was schwartzgrau, they would add blotches of dunkelgelb. if the basecoat was dunkelgelb, splotches of olive green and/or chocklate brown would be applied.

The second photo is of a stug and is available in many sources and taken from several angles. The snapshot in time of the roster of Ab 177, Ab 244 and Ab 245 showed only 7 long barelled stugs in Stalingrad at that time.

Terry

Terry, this second photo is the same photo I spoke about that was in Color.

What does the barrel color look like, Gray perhaps..

Cheers

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry, this second photo is the same photo I spoke about that was in Color.

What does the barrel color look like, Gray perhaps..

Cheers

Yes, or even black like the cross on the side of the vehicle. At this point in the war, Stug Ausf Fs were new and uncommon so disguising the barrel like a Firefly did, could let the Stug get in an AP shot at a Russian tank which would not fear a howitzer equipped Stug.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

I have seen dark barrels on other German tanks as well such as the Tiger and Panzer IV.

 

[fmethorst]

I think on one thing we can agree. There were light colored non Dunkelgrau (RAL 7021) long barreled Stugs at Stalingrad.

Personally I like the DAK color (RAL 8020 ?) chosen by FL and at very least the color is plausible. This color could have ended up in the Soviet Union in one of three ways. Vehicles originally destined for Africa were redirected, the paint was intentionally used for vehicles being shipped to southern Russia, or after the surrender of DAK the remaining quantities of these colors were simply used up. After the official change to Dunkelgelb in February 1943 it could have easily been substituted. Explanation 3 does not apply in our case since we dealing with vehicles shipped in 1942.

In addition, the resource and supply situation was always problematic so while yes, there were standards, there were many cases of making due with what was at hand or outright substitution.

It will be interesting to see if FL does release the Stug in multiple colors. My preference today will be to go with a DAK color for my Stalingrad scene.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I think on one thing we can agree. There were light colored non Dunkelgrau (RAL 7021) long barreled Stugs at Stalingrad.

Personally I like the DAK color (RAL 8020 ?) chosen by FL and at very least the color is plausible. This color could have ended up in the Soviet Union in one of three ways. Vehicles originally destined for Africa were redirected, the paint was intentionally used for vehicles being shipped to southern Russia, or after the surrender of DAK the remaining quantities of these colors were simply used up. After the official change to Dunkelgelb in February 1943 it could have easily been substituted. Explanation 3 does not apply in our case since we dealing with vehicles shipped in 1942.

In addition, the resource and supply situation was always problematic so while yes, there were standards, there were many cases of making due with what was at hand or outright substitution.

It will be interesting to see if FL does release the Stug in multiple colors. My preference today will be to go with a DAK color for my Stalingrad scene.

And as you might guess, I would prefer dunkelgelb. There could have been both colours there anyway. PS Hurry up with Island of Fire - move it to the top of your pile.

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

At this point in the war, Stug Ausf Fs were new and uncommon
Terry

Not so at all I don't think. Stugs themselves may have been uncommon at this point relative to panzers, however, the total production for the Ausf F and Ausf F/8 is almost the same as the total production of all variants which preceeded it (A-E). Once you take away battle losses that the A-E would surely have taken in the first two years of the war, it would stand to reason that the F models at this point would have been the most numerous stugs available at this time.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Not so at all I don't think. Stugs themselves may have been uncommon at this point relative to panzers, however, the total production for the Ausf F and Ausf F/8 is almost the same as the total production of all variants which preceeded it (A-E). Once you take away battle losses that the A-E would surely have taken in the first two years of the war, it would stand to reason that the F models at this point would have been the most numerous stugs available at this time.

Yes, the most numerous stugs available and as many as Ausf A, B, C, D and E combined, but still not too numerous for the entire Eastern Front (a 2,00 mile front ? not sure about this number) (plus some going to Italy and the west) with less than 700 Ausf F and F/8 and not all available at the same time due to battle damage, servicing, destroyed - they were produced over about 7 months, not all at once.. I should not have used the word uncommon as it is too harsh a description. The Ausf F and F/8 were not uncommon, just not too numerous. And earlier in this thread, less than 10 inside Stalingrad.

Ausf A 30 1940
Ausf B 320 1940-41
Ausf C 50 1941
Ausf D 150 1941
Ausf E 272 1941-42

822

Ausf F 359 1942
Ausf F/8 334 1942

693

Ausf G 7,720 1942-45

 

[mk26gmls]

Matt,

FL is really producing some incredible stuff! Very nice.

 

[Spitfrnd]

....I should not have used the word uncommon as it is too harsh a description. The Ausf F and F/8 were not uncommon, just not too numerous. And earlier in this thread, less than 10 inside Stalingrad.
...

Interesting, there was just one certain British Rifles officer with Wellington but I want him just the same, uncommon as he was.

 

[VanguardFC007]

Interesting, there was just one certain British Rifles officer with Wellington but I want him just the same, uncommon as he was.

Id take him to join my Lee

 

[FirstLegion]

I should not have used the word uncommon as it is too harsh a description. The Ausf F and F/8 were not uncommon, just not too numerous. And earlier in this thread, less than 10 inside Stalingrad.

I definitely agree that they were not too numerous, but the "less than 10 in Stalingrad" is probably lowering their numbers a bit. At that moment in time on November 10th or so, there were less than 10 in ABT 245 and 244 (I don't have specific returns for 177 but 2 out of 3 batteries report 11 total vehicles in mid-November with no information on the third battery), but bear in mind this is only in the city itself and only at this moment in time. At this point the Germans held more than 9/10ths of the city and their losses had been horrendous. Further, it is unclear if these numbers are the total numbers or the numbers that took part in the specific attack. Given how decimated all of the German units were at this time it is conceivable that the vehicles were parceled out mission specific rather than deployed in their entirety.

I suspect that this number is quite a bit higher back in August through October. Further, unless I'm wrong, there were also a few ABT's operating out on the flanks in the vicinity of Stalingrad and one that took part in the relief effort. So if you add all of these factors together, the number should swell a bit. I have no idea to how many and it would still be "uncommon" as compared to the dominant panzers of the time, but it would certainly be more than 10. It would be interesting to know the total number of Stug III's (F and F/8) that saw action in the overall battle of Stalingrad (starting forces, replacements, drive on the city, in the city, on the flanks flanks, relief attempt etc...). I would think the number closer to 100 or possibly quite a bit higher.

Certainly an interesting discussion though...

 

[Combat]

All this Stalingrad talk does my heart good after the it won't sell talk. I was watching one of those history channel shows where they mentioned that the Russian losses at Stalingrad exceeded those of the Americans and Brits for the entire war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the Russians won. Cue Street Fighting Man - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRqtKLskPQs

 

[johngambale]

WOW! I would want to have those German Figure'sfor my WW2 Collection! Also, DAK Herman Goring's Panzer Grenadiers ! NICE! Excellent!CIAO!

 

[Warrior]

All this Stalingrad talk does my heart good after the it won't sell talk. I was watching one of those history channel shows where they mentioned that the Russian losses at Stalingrad exceeded those of the Americans and Brits for the entire war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the Russians won. Cue Street Fighting Man -

Doug,
If memory serves me, the Russian losses military and civilian at Stalingrad and Kursk exceeded the total allied losses during WWII.

Two huge battles no doubt, but the statistics are staggering nevertheless.............

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I definitely agree that they were not too numerous, but the "less than 10 in Stalingrad" is probably lowering their numbers a bit. At that moment in time on November 10th or so, there were less than 10 in ABT 245 and 244 (I don't have specific returns for 177 but 2 out of 3 batteries report 11 total vehicles in mid-November with no information on the third battery), but bear in mind this is only in the city itself and only at this moment in time. At this point the Germans held more than 9/10ths of the city and their losses had been horrendous. Further, it is unclear if these numbers are the total numbers or the numbers that took part in the specific attack. Given how decimated all of the German units were at this time it is conceivable that the vehicles were parceled out mission specific rather than deployed in their entirety.

I suspect that this number is quite a bit higher back in August through October. Further, unless I'm wrong, there were also a few ABT's operating out on the flanks in the vicinity of Stalingrad and one that took part in the relief effort. So if you add all of these factors together, the number should swell a bit. I have no idea to how many and it would still be "uncommon" as compared to the dominant panzers of the time, but it would certainly be more than 10. It would be interesting to know the total number of Stug III's (F and F/8) that saw action in the overall battle of Stalingrad (starting forces, replacements, drive on the city, in the city, on the flanks flanks, relief attempt etc...). I would think the number closer to 100 or possibly quite a bit higher.

Certainly an interesting discussion though...

Somewhere earlier in this thread I posted the number of long barreled stugs as 7 for Ab 244, 245 and 177 in Stalingrad on a specific date. Who knows what the numbers may have been before that - but keep in mind, only 100 long barreled stugs were being made per month over approximately a 7 month period. So as the cumulative production numbers rose over time, attrition reduced the numbers available. 100 long barreled stugs in the Stalingrad region during the Stalingrad campaign is believable - they just would not have been there all at the same time. If the total is 100 over 7 months and production = attrition, that would be about 15 active long barreled stugs in the Stalingrad campaign at any one time. Very rough numbers based on your guestimate of 100 overall.

Terry

 

[Andanna]

Matt, I am not certain I saw your timing for the StuG. When do you expect to be able to post production photos ? And when do you think pre-order and delivery starts - understanding that any such dates would be non-committal.

 

[FirstLegion]

Matt, I am not certain I saw your timing for the StuG. When do you expect to be able to post production photos ? And when do you think pre-order and delivery starts - understanding that any such dates would be non-committal.

Well, any dates that I post here even with a non-committal caveat are going to be taken by most to be hard and fast, so I'd rather not get overly specific. Suffice it to say, August/September sounds reasonable.

Best,

Matt