First Legion Stug III Ausf F/8 (2 Viewers)

[Spitfrnd]

A hair shirt as a sign of repentance and atonement?

Terry

Indeed Terry. I know it is too much to hope for with some parties but optimism is more liberating.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Hi Terry, there was a discussion of Russia '42 colors in this thread:

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10753&highlight=spiegel

If you look for my post on the German magazine "Spiegel", it will lead you to the color photos.

Southern Russia in 1942 was really an anything goes time in terms of painting. There are other books which have lesser known photos from veterans collections of this time period, & it is true camouflage anarchy!

Yes. I agree with your comment that there were a lot of variations in southern Russia about the time of Stalingrad in the Summer/Autumn of 1942. And yes, armour painted with an Afrika Korps basecoat did get shipped to the Stalingrad area in 1942 - but I have never seen any figures on how many AFVs there were or how many were new Ausf F Stugs with an AK base coat. There were some, as I have seen several photos of what appears to be the same Stug in Stalingrad in desert tan with a darker gun barrel.

Up until February 1943, by far the predominant factory base coat for western Europe and Russia was schwartzgrau. Only a portion of new AFVs were prepared for the Afrika Korps, a secondary front. Much of the new AFV production went to to the preparations for Barbarossa and panzer units in the west. Rommel was starved for replacement armour.

And yes, there were models of Stugs painted in AK colours but the modellers have the same problem we do - they chose the colour for artistic reasons, not based on statistics showing a large number of AK painted Stugs.

Even the photo of the yellow Kublewagon in southern Russia looks more like a 1943 2 colour camo job on a dark yellow base and not the desert colour, although it is hard to tell. I have seen that photo dated 1942 so we cannot even be sure of the date (1941 or 1942), but it is significant that all the several AFVs with the car are painted schwartzgrau.

The point I was making and overstated as a black and white argument (no pun intended) was that a desert colour for the Stalingrad Stug probably was probably not very representative of the German armour inside Stalingrad.

Terry

 

[Blowtorch]

And yes, there were models of Stugs painted in AK colours but the modellers have the same problem we do - they chose the colour for artistic reasons, not based on statistics showing a large number of AK painted Stugs.
Terry

I do hope someone really digs into 1942 Russia colors.

Regarding the long StuGs, all of the pics I've seen in 1942 with one exception, are in the lighter color. The exception are the very first 1942 StuGs that got sent up to Lenningrad...those might have been the first
StuH105s, come to think, and not 75s (did 75s go with the 105s?). But for the 1942 long 75's, I really can't remember seeing any in grey in '42. The GD division had a lot of press coverage that year, and their 75shorts were still in grey, but all the long 75's, as well the newer long PzIVs were in the lighter base color with really amateurish looking camo in most cases. Some people have offered the theory that the light color was not DAK at all, but a common yellow ochre that was on German farm equipment at that time. I suspect the darker barrels are simply the dark red/brownsih primer, possibly left that way to make them appear as short 75s from a distance.

But it is true that the Tigers that got sent to Russia in '42 were in grey. If you can find a copy of Jean Restayn's JJF "Kharkov" book, he did some research into this & even proposes that Luftwaffe colors might have been field applied as well.

But if you do find a grey StuG long in 1942, please let me know as I am very interested in this.

Regarding the color Kubelwagon photo, it is a "Signal" photo from either 1941 or early '42. If you would like I can dig for this...as I think I have that issue,

cheers

 

[Louis Badolato]

Wow! You gentlemen are extremely knowledgeable. I have said before, and I reiterate here, that I learn more of the details of history reading posts on this forum than I ever did in school.

 

[fmethorst]

Interresting photos, especially the colour photo a the group which clearly shows what camo the vehicles are. The B&W photo of the Stug is overexposed and with the info lost due to the overexposure, can't tell what colour it is. If it wasn't for the summer uniforms, the Stug could even be white.

Do you have any more colour photos? the one of the group is one of the best I have seen.

Terry

The color picture came from these books:

http://www.rzm.com/books/av/sturm.cfm

http://www.rzm.com/books/av/russland.cfm

http://www.rzm.com/books/av/osten.cfm

 

[fmethorst]

The point I was making and overstated as a black and white argument (no pun intended) was that a desert colour for the Stalingrad Stug probably was probably not very representative of the German armour inside Stalingrad.

Terry

Based on all armour present I agree with you. Based on the long barreled Stugs present I'm not so sure. It appears that all the long barreled Stugs from Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 244 and Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 245 were not dunkelgrau.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I do hope someone really digs into 1942 Russia colors.

Regarding the long StuGs, all of the pics I've seen in 1942 with one exception, are in the lighter color. The exception are the very first 1942 StuGs that got sent up to Lenningrad...those might have been the first
StuH105s, come to think, and not 75s (did 75s go with the 105s?). But for the 1942 long 75's, I really can't remember seeing any in grey in '42. The GD division had a lot of press coverage that year, and their 75shorts were still in grey, but all the long 75's, as well the newer long PzIVs were in the lighter base color with really amateurish looking camo in most cases. Some people have offered the theory that the light color was not DAK at all, but a common yellow ochre that was on German farm equipment at that time. I suspect the darker barrels are simply the dark red/brownsih primer, possibly left that way to make them appear as short 75s from a distance.

But it is true that the Tigers that got sent to Russia in '42 were in grey. If you can find a copy of Jean Restayn's JJF "Kharkov" book, he did some research into this & even proposes that Luftwaffe colors might have been field applied as well.

But if you do find a grey StuG long in 1942, please let me know as I am very interested in this.

Regarding the color Kubelwagon photo, it is a "Signal" photo from either 1941 or early '42. If you would like I can dig for this...as I think I have that issue,

cheers

Yes, if you can find the photo, that would be great because it is an iconic photo and I have heard variously that it was from Summer 1941, 1942 and 1943. From the colour photo it looks to me like a 1943 camo scheme on a dunkelgelb factory base coat like the camo on K&C Whittmann's last Tiger. But the picture is not conclusively clear.

Only 250 Stug III Ausf F/8 were produced in late-1942 (September - December) for the whole eastern Front, western Europe, Italy and North Afrika, compared to 7,700 Ausf Gs December 1942 - 1945, so the Ausf F/8 were spread thin. A reason why pictures of them are scarce.

The same source, Sturmgeschütze vor!, noted that Dunkelgelb (RAL 7028), a dark yellow color originally developed as paint for agricultural vehicles and equipment became a standard military color after October of 1942. Numerous other sources say that dunkelgelb didn't become the officially ordered factory base coat until February 1943. If all that is correct, no Ausf F/8 would have been painted in desert camo - they all would have had a dunkelgelb base coat, except for ones planned for North Africa, but by then there was little or no plans to ship armour to the AK. The earlier Ausf F - 360 produced, could have had a desert camo scheme as they were produced before dunkelgelb came into common use and also could have been diverted from a planned shipment to North Afrika.

There are very very few photos of Ausf Fs or Ausf F/8s and none that I know of that you can determine the colour of, especially if the stug is in bright sunlight and the picture is overexposed.

The new Vanguard book Sturmartillerie & Panzerjaeger 1939-1945 refers to photos of Ausf F Stugs http://books.google.ca/books?id=HX1...b4tJsB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6

One Ausf F of 191 Stug Brigade Russia 1943 charging bison insignia was marked with a stencil when the original Panzer Grey was repainted Ochre (dunkelgelb). An Ausf F of the Grosdeutchland Division had an ochre base coat with soft brown streaks. So there were some dark grey long barrelled stugs. An old colour photo of a stug in bright sunlight and/or covered in dust could have a dunkelgelb base coat but appear much lighter like desert camo - hard to tell.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Wow! You gentlemen are extremely knowledgeable. I have said before, and I reiterate here, that I learn more of the details of history reading posts on this forum than I ever did in school.

Well we learn a lot about the history of toy soldiers and AFVs from you.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Based on all armour present I agree with you. Based on the long barreled Stugs present I'm not so sure. It appears that all the long barreled Stugs from Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 244 and Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 245 were not dunkelgrau.

Here is part of the history of Ab 245 (and Ab 244 along with it) Each Ab would have had 3 batteries of 6 Stugs each or 18 per Ab, 36 in total. But I have no roster of which Ausf of Stugs they had. The Ab 245 was formed in 1941 so it is likely they would have had several Ausf of Stug - no idea of how many Ausf F/8. Both abs were destroyed at Stalingrad.

Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 245
Wehrkreis responsible for formation: Wehrkreis XIII.
Date of Formation: 13 Jun.1941:
----- At Jüterbog Truppenübungsplatz, Wehrkreis III
First Commanding Officer: Major Hans Zielsch.


UNIT HISTORY:
Early Jul.1941..... Attached to 100. leichte Infanterie-Division, LII. Armeekorps, 17. Armee, Heeresgruppe Sud.
15 Jul.1941..... Attached to LII. Armeekorps, 17. Armee, Heeresgruppe Sud.
21 Aug.1941..... Attached to XXXXIV. Armeekorps, 17. Armee, Heeresgruppe Sud.
15 Sep.1941..... Attached to LII. Armeekorps, 17. Armee, Heeresgruppe Sud.
31 Oct.1941..... Assigned to Gruppe “von Schwedler” (named after Gen.d.Inf. Viktor von Schwedler, commanding IV. Armeekorps and XXXXIV. Armeekorps), 17. Armee, Heeresgruppe Sud, fighting in the area of the Donez River.
21 Nov.1941..... Stu.Gesch.Abt.245, still attached to Gruppe “von Schwedler”, 17. Armee, Heeresgruppe Sud, reaches Rostov – “Gateway to the Caucasus”.
1 Feb.1942..... Stu.Gesch.Abt.245 attached to Gruppe “von Schwedler”, 17. Armee (minus one batterie attached to XXXXIV. Armeekorps) Heeresgruppe Sud.
3 Mar.1942..... Stu.Gesch.Abt.245 attached to Gruppe “von Schwedler”, 17. Armee (minus one batterie attached to XXXXIV. Armeekorps) Heeresgruppe Sud.
Jul.1942..... Unit attached to XXXXIV. Armeekorps, 6. Armee, Heeresgruppe Sud.
6 Nov.1942..... Attached to LI. Armeekorps, 6. Armee, Heeresgruppe B.
Jan.1943..... Stu.Gesch.Abt.245, along with Stu.Gesch.Abt.244, was destroyed at Stalingrad, along with the rest of 6. Armee.
10 Apr.1943..... Unit reformed at the Jüterbog Truppenübungsplatz, Wehrkreis III.
30 Jun.1943..... Attached to XLVII. Panzerkorps, 9. Armee, Heeresgruppe Mitte, in the vicinity of Orel.
4 Jul.1943..... Attached to XLVII. Panzerkorps, 9. Armee, Heeresgruppe Mitte, located in the Orel region.
26 Jan.1944..... Unit attached to LIII. Armeekorps, 3. Panzerarmee, Heeresgruppe Mitte.
*14 Feb.1944..... Redesignated Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 245.

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

And if this is not the case I imagine there will be some upset collectors in due course.

Sorry, but I just can't imagine any collector being "upset" with owning ANY of this....

German Infantry take cover behind a Stug III Ausf F/8 from Abteilung 245 in the Barrikady.

A Stug III Ausf F/8 provides support to German Infantry and Pioneers as they move out against the Commissar's House.


I don't know about any of you, but the scale looks pretty good to me.

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Based on all armour present I agree with you. Based on the long barreled Stugs present I'm not so sure. It appears that all the long barreled Stugs from Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 244 and Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 245 were not dunkelgrau.

Actually I do have info on the constitution of of s.I.G.33 (Sturminfanteriegeschütz 33) which included Ab 244 Ab 245 and Ab 177 at Stalingrad from the 6th armee war diaries.

Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 177 / 02.11.42: 3 long, 0 short, 3 s.I.G.
Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 244 / 31.10.42: 2 long, 3 short, 6 s.I.G.
Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 245 / 10.11.42: 2 long, 1 short, 4 s.I.G.

The actions of these assault guns is covered in the book Island Of Fire by Jason D Mark which also features a few photos of them in Stalingrad. He used archival sources from both the Soviet Union and Germany to create an account of the fighting in the factory district in Stalingrad between a German division and the 138th Rifle Division of the Red Army. I do not have the book and it is not even listed at Chapters. Find the book and we will have some answers - maybe.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Sorry, but I just can't imagine any collector being "upset" with owning ANY of this....

German Infantry take cover behind a Stug III Ausf F/8 from Abteilung 245 in the Barrikady.

A Stug III Ausf F/8 provides support to German Infantry and Pioneers as they move out against the Commissar's House.


I don't know about any of you, but the scale looks pretty good to me.

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

Is that the same model we saw earlier? The stug in this photo looks grey.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

A little history on Dunkelgelb.

The color was developed as a universal color (Einheitzfarbe) for painting agricultural machinery. In the forties large quantities of this color were manufactured and Army subsequently used it. It was introduced mainly because the fighting took place in different terrain - in Africa and later in southern Russia - where dark grey was not very suitable. Before the revision of 1939-1940 Dunkelgelb was not registered with the RAL institute because it was not listed in the previous register RAL 840 B2. It was listed neither in the official list of color hues of the Wehrmacht from 1941, nor was it in the list of standardized Army colors from the beginning of 1942. Under the designation 7028 it was probably registered in March 1943. The Army at the time of issue of the H.M. 1943 Nr. 181 (February 1943) did not know its RAL code and specified the color hue "according to standard" (Dunkelgelb nach Muster). On April 3, 1943 a newly issued H.M. 1943 Nr. 322 complements the previous regulation and explcitly specifies the codes of the dark yellow and green colors.

Source - http://www.auradesign.eu/CCWH_en.htm

I realize there were a few variants of this color but one thing keeps jumping out at me, where it ended up in the RAL register. This register was divided in nine color groups. The first digit represented the color group (i.e. 6 - greens, 8 - browns etc.). Dunkelgelb did not end up with the yellows (1000s), it ended up with the greys (7000s). This makes me very suspicous when I see bright yellow colors purporting to be Dunkelgelb.

I think a good example of Dunkelgelb would be this Kubelwagen.

This said there were so many problems with resources and supply that nothing would really surprise me at this point.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

A little history on Dunkelgelb.

The color was developed as a universal color (Einheitzfarbe) for painting agricultural machinery. In the forties large quantities of this color were manufactured and Army subsequently used it. It was introduced mainly because the fighting took place in different terrain - in Africa and later in southern Russia - where dark grey was not very suitable. Before the revision of 1939-1940 Dunkelgelb was not registered with the RAL institute because it was not listed in the previous register RAL 840 B2. It was listed neither in the official list of color hues of the Wehrmacht from 1941, nor was it in the list of standardized Army colors from the beginning of 1942. Under the designation 7028 it was probably registered in March 1943. The Army at the time of issue of the H.M. 1943 Nr. 181 (February 1943) did not know its RAL code and specified the color hue "according to standard" (Dunkelgelb nach Muster). On April 3, 1943 a newly issued H.M. 1943 Nr. 322 complements the previous regulation and explcitly specifies the codes of the dark yellow and green colors.

Source - http://www.auradesign.eu/CCWH_en.htm

I realize there were a few variants of this color but one thing keeps jumping out at me, where it ended up in the RAL register. This register was divided in nine color groups. The first digit represented the color group (i.e. 6 - greens, 8 - browns etc.). Dunkelgelb did not end up with the yellows (1000s), it ended up with the greys (7000s). This makes me very suspicous when I see very bright yellow colors purporting to be Dunkelgelb.

I think a good example of Dunkelgelb would be this Kubelwagen.

This said there were so many problems with resources and supply that nothing would really surprise me at this point.

Yes, it did end up in the greys. I heard a reason for this but cannot remember it. A friend of mine is an expert on camo and uniform colours. I will see if I can get to him and ask. I think he was the one who told me the reason several years ago? And you are correct that dunkelgelb was not a bright yellow at all but I remember it as a fairly dark yellow.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

Actually I do have info on the constitution of of s.I.G.33 (Sturminfanteriegeschütz 33) which included Ab 244 Ab 245 and Ab 177 at Stalingrad from the 6th armee war diaries.

Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 177 / 02.11.42: 3 long, 0 short, 3 s.I.G.
Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 244 / 31.10.42: 2 long, 3 short, 6 s.I.G.
Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 245 / 10.11.42: 2 long, 1 short, 4 s.I.G.

The actions of these assault guns is covered in the book Island Of Fire by Jason D Mark which also features a few photos of them in Stalingrad. He used archival sources from both the Soviet Union and Germany to create an account of the fighting in the factory district in Stalingrad between a German division and the 138th Rifle Division of the Red Army. I do not have the book and it is not even listed at Chapters. Find the book and we will have some answers - maybe.

Terry

I just recently bought a copy of "Island Of Fire" from J.J. Fedorowicz. I'm don't know if there are any other Canadian sources.

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/leaping_horseman.htm

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I just recently bought a copy of "Island Of Fire" from J.J. Fedorowicz. I'm don't know if there are any other Canadian sources.

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/leaping_horseman.htm

Amazon.com has 2 used copies for $150. I won't be buying one. Did you read it yet?

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

Actually I do have info on the constitution of of s.I.G.33 (Sturminfanteriegeschütz 33) which included Ab 244 Ab 245 and Ab 177 at Stalingrad from the 6th armee war diaries.

Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 177 / 02.11.42: 3 long, 0 short, 3 s.I.G.
Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 244 / 31.10.42: 2 long, 3 short, 6 s.I.G.
Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 245 / 10.11.42: 2 long, 1 short, 4 s.I.G.

The actions of these assault guns is covered in the book Island Of Fire by Jason D Mark which also features a few photos of them in Stalingrad. He used archival sources from both the Soviet Union and Germany to create an account of the fighting in the factory district in Stalingrad between a German division and the 138th Rifle Division of the Red Army. I do not have the book and it is not even listed at Chapters. Find the book and we will have some answers - maybe.

Terry

I have the book and the numbers above may be correct at some point, but at the start of the attack on November 10th or so, the numbers were:

244 - 5 x long, 7 x short, 6 x 33b
245 - 2 x long, 2 x short, 6 x 33b

That being said, the numbers go up and down from day to day for both ABTs at the start of different attacks because of losses and repairs, so the returns are specific to the day. Suffice it to say, both 244 and 245 had long barrels in them, which could only possibly the Ausf F and/or Ausf F/8 (no distinction is made). My guess is that there were some of both of them given that we're talking about November here and given that the brand new Sig 33B was attached to these ABTs. It makes sense that the new F/8 model would have been present in Stalingrad given the losses these ABT's took in October in the battles for the factories. We've done a LOT of research on this but unfortunately I don't think there are any definitive answers as so many of the German records were destroyed and the russians wouldn't know the difference....

 

[FirstLegion]

Is that the same model we saw earlier? The stug in this photo looks grey.

Terry

Hi, Terry,

If you look at your color chart that you posted, the closest color match to the Stug I've been posting images of are 7027 and the first variant of dunkelgelb 7028 in the chart. As you can easily see from the color chart itself, it's difficult to discern what color these RAL variants are both look tan and gray! So as for the Stug, in some light it looks more tan, in other light it looks more gray. Hence why it appears different shades in different images/lighting. It's the same one though.

M

 

[fmethorst]

Yes, it did end up in the greys. I heard a reason for this but cannot remember it. A friend of mine is an expert on camo and uniform colours. I will see if I can get to him and ask. I think he was the one who told me the reason several years ago? And you are correct that dunkelgelb was not a bright yellow at all but I remember it as a fairly dark yellow.

Terry

Those scanned color paint chips are from Tomas Chory's book (http://www.auradesign.eu/CCWH_en.htm) and they aren't totally representative of the ones in the book which are sprayed samples from the RAL institute. One has to be careful when looking at small samples like this as well since the amount of light reflected by such a small surface is less than a full size object and the sample can appear unduly dark.

 

[fmethorst]

Amazon.com has 2 used copies for $150. I won't be buying one. Did you read it yet?

Terry

No, it's in my "to read" pile.

$150... must be the original hard cover.