First Legion Stug III Ausf F/8 (3 Viewers)

[Phantom Warrior]

I have the book and the numbers above may be correct at some point, but at the start of the attack on November 10th or so, the numbers were:

244 - 5 x long, 7 x short, 6 x 33b
245 - 2 x long, 2 x short, 6 x 33b

That being said, the numbers go up and down from day to day for both ABTs at the start of different attacks because of losses and repairs, so the returns are specific to the day. Suffice it to say, both 244 and 245 had long barrels in them, which could only possibly the Ausf F and/or Ausf F/8 (no distinction is made). My guess is that there were some of both of them given that we're talking about November here and given that the brand new Sig 33B was attached to these ABTs. It makes sense that the new F/8 model would have been present in Stalingrad given the losses these ABT's took in October in the battles for the factories. We've done a LOT of research on this but unfortunately I don't think there are any definitive answers as so many of the German records were destroyed and the russians wouldn't know the difference....

There likely would have been Ausf F/8 at Stalingrad to replace losses. Production of Ausf F stopped in August 1942 and production on Ausf F/8 began September 1942 and ran until December 1942. The 6th army was not cut off until about November 20, 1942.

So you know the Sig 33 was brand new at that time. Done some research on them? Could it be your 2nd piece of armour??

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Those scanned color paint chips are from Tomas Chory's book (http://www.auradesign.eu/CCWH_en.htm) and they aren't totally representative of the ones in the book which are sprayed samples from the RAL institute. One has to be careful when looking at small samples like this as well since the amount of light reflected by such a small surface is less than a full size object and the sample can appear undully dark.

I think we have pretty much exhausted this topic because we seem to be running out of concrete info? Maybe there is some better info in the Island of Fire book about Ausf F vs Ausf F/8 and what camo they may have had.? It is the only book I know of that got into the minutia of the battle that directly and intimately involved those stug units.

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

There likely would have been Ausf F/8 at Stalingrad to replace losses. Production of Ausf F stopped in August 1942 and production on Ausf F/8 began September 1942 and ran until December 1942. The 6th army was not cut off until about November 20, 1942.

So you know the Sig 33 was brand new at that time. Done some research on them? Could it be your 2nd piece of armour??

Terry

Agreed on all above and yes of course we are fully aware of the Sig 33B and have researched them. It was in fact specifically designed to help break the deadlock at Stalingrad and no Stalingrad range worth its salt would be complete without it. So it very well just might be our next piece of armor, you'll just have to wait and see! If we do produce it, though, I hope we can sell more of them than were actually made!

 

[fmethorst]

Thanks for an interesting discussion guys!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Thanks for an interesting discussion guys!

Thanks. Let me know how the book ends.

Terry

 

[Blowtorch]

the Sig 33B.... So it very well just might be our next piece of armor, you'll just have to wait and see!

I just soiled myself

 

[Blowtorch]

Yes, if you can find the photo, that would be great because it is an iconic photo and I have heard variously that it was from Summer 1941, 1942 and 1943. From the colour photo it looks to me like a 1943 camo scheme on a dunkelgelb factory base coat like the camo on K&C Whittmann's last Tiger. But the picture is not conclusively clear.

OK, the Kubel photo is in the No. 20 October 1942 issue of Signal which is the second issue for the month of October. And just on the opposite page is a PzIII Company on the Steppe which are definitely all a light color. It's a B&W pic, but it can't just be dust because the spare stowage roadwheels black rubber is still black, and the uniforms of the crew is very very black.

I was once toying with the idea of a Panzer Colors book for Russia 1942 but lost patience with the locations of the sources. Blau panzer imagery is scattered all over the place. The GD div had good photo coverage that year and those photos are in one nice tidy place (ECPA in Paris) and many got used in the RZM book on the GD. The IWM has good photos...the BA/Freiburg has good stuff but is hopelessly disorganized & would need a good two months to go through. Then there are the German divisional histories that have photos from veterans collections. The B&W newsreels of the campaign have good stuff too. Now the new publications from Eastern Europe are bringing newer stuff that is useful...but organizing & tracking down copyright for these images proved to be a pain in the neck. Signal, Die Wehrmacht, Berliner Zeitung, L'Illustration and photo mags of that kind also have neat stuff but again is a pain to work with. Too bad the government doesn't hand out research grants for Panzer Colors.

 

[Vezzolf]

Sorry, but I just can't imagine any collector being "upset" with owning ANY of this....

German Infantry take cover behind a Stug III Ausf F/8 from Abteilung 245 in the Barrikady.

A Stug III Ausf F/8 provides support to German Infantry and Pioneers as they move out against the Commissar's House.


I don't know about any of you, but the scale looks pretty good to me.

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

Matt......I must say.....I have not seen better unless by an expert model builder in 1:35 scale........EXCELLENT models and Figures.....I WANT ONE....Looking forward to their release.....Thank you Vezzolf

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I just soiled myself

Why did you soil yourself? Do you like the s.I.G. 33b or is it my interrogation techniques you admire?

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

Matt......I must say.....I have not seen better unless by an expert model builder in 1:35 scale........EXCELLENT models and Figures.....I WANT ONE....Looking forward to their release.....Thank you Vezzolf

You're very welcome and thank you for the comments. See, as you've apparently seen expertly built 1/35th models and figures, you have a frame of reference for what we're trying to achieve. I fear that the detail on our models and figures might be lost on a lot of people here who just don't appreciate the level of work that goes into them. Perhaps we're going beyond what the market really wants? Maybe we are....or maybe the audience that would truly appreciate our figures and models just aren't on this particular forum for the most part which is a "toy soldier" forum. Our figures and models are just so much more than that....

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

 

[FirstLegion]

Why did you soil yourself? Do you like the s.I.G. 33b or is it my interrogation techniques you admire?

Terry

You're funny Terry. By the way, do you SLEEP?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

You're funny Terry. By the way, do you SLEEP?

Our species does not require sleep, Earthling

Terry

 

[jazzeum]

Good question about sleeping. I was just over in Ireland on business and noticed that when I got up at 530, Terry was still on and was on a couple of hours later

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Good question about sleeping. I was just over in Ireland on business and noticed that when I got up at 530, Terry was still on and was on a couple of hours later

Perhaps you were just dreaming about me

 

[Phantom Warrior]

OK, the Kubel photo is in the No. 20 October 1942 issue of Signal which is the second issue for the month of October. And just on the opposite page is a PzIII Company on the Steppe which are definitely all a light color. It's a B&W pic, but it can't just be dust because the spare stowage roadwheels black rubber is still black, and the uniforms of the crew is very very black.

As Fmethorst said, dunkelgelb could be a light color depending of supply and dilution. It could be difficult in a photo tell a weathered light application of Dunkelgelb from desert colours which are not be all that different.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

After all of the discussion, I came to some conclusions - at least in my own mind.

It is very likely that some stug III Ausf F/8 were at Stalingrad in addition to the Ausf F. While it is possible that the Ausf F/8s may have been painted in desert camo but were diverted from North Afrika to Stalingrad. But given the lateness in 1942, the lack of planned resupply for the AK, the beginning of the use of Dunklegelb in August 1942 prior to it's offical adoption, I believe it is more likely that moast ,if not all Ausf F/8 would have a dunkelgelb base coat. Otherwise a panzer grey base coat. I think desert camo to be the least likely.

Only a good colour photo of an Ausf F/8 (and not an Ausf F which would be more likely due to timing to have desert camo) or a detailed description from someone who was there can make things more clear. The Island of Fire book may do that.

As a result, I would make dunkelgelb as my first choice for the FL Ausf F/8 and Panzer Grey as a distant 2nd choice.

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

After all of the discussion, I came to some conclusions - at least in my own mind.

It is very likely that some stug III Ausf F/8 were at Stalingrad in addition to the Ausf F. While it is possible that the Ausf F/8s may have been painted in desert camo but were diverted from North Afrika to Stalingrad. But given the lateness in 1942, the lack of planned resupply for the AK, the beginning of the use of Dunklegelb in August 1942 prior to it's offical adoption, I believe it is more likely that moast ,if not all Ausf F/8 would have a dunkelgelb base coat. Otherwise a panzer grey base coat. I think desert camo to be the least likely.

Only a good colour photo of an Ausf F/8 (and not an Ausf F which would be more likely due to timing to have desert camo) or a detailed description from someone who was there can make things more clear. The Island of Fire book may do that.

As a result, I would make dunkelgelb as my first choice for the FL Ausf F/8 and Panzer Grey as a distant 2nd choice.

Terry

Oh sleepless wonder....

I can see how you came to this conclusion with one exception. Where does it state that the Stugs in Russia painted in the DAK colors were ones that were originally destined for Africa? My impression is that they purposely chose this color for southern russia because the color of the landscape in southern russia in the steppes was more appropriate to a tan camouflage than it was to panzer grey. This would be backed up in that they officially changed the color of all armor to a similar base coat from panzer gray later that year. So in my mind the ones sent to russia in DAK colors were always meant for Russia, they weren't diverted. This would further be backed up by the scale of the theaters. The desert was a pimple on the body of German Army in Russia. Make sense?

From where I sit, the only options for coloring are Panzer Grey or the tan color. It's too early for the yellowish color that became the standard. Using the DAK colors in southern Russia in 1942 was the transitional period between early Panzer Grey and what was later to become the standard for all german AFV's....

Food for thought.

Regards,
Matt

 

[Harrytheheid]

Sorry, but I just can't imagine any collector being "upset" with owning ANY of this....

German Infantry take cover behind a Stug III Ausf F/8 from Abteilung 245 in the Barrikady.

A Stug III Ausf F/8 provides support to German Infantry and Pioneers as they move out against the Commissar's House.


I don't know about any of you, but the scale looks pretty good to me.

Regards,

Matt
First Legion Ltd

Oh Maaaaaaan. I just saw these photo's. Wow - you sure you didn't renovate an old Stug and employed some re-enactors for this photoshoot. Now that would be a pretty good con if ever I saw one.


Cheers
Harry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Oh sleepless wonder....

I can see how you came to this conclusion with one exception. Where does it state that the Stugs in Russia painted in the DAK colors were ones that were originally destined for Africa? My impression is that they purposely chose this color for southern russia because the color of the landscape in southern russia in the steppes was more appropriate to a tan camouflage than it was to panzer grey. This would be backed up in that they officially changed the color of all armor to a similar base coat from panzer gray later that year. So in my mind the ones sent to russia in DAK colors were always meant for Russia, they weren't diverted. This would further be backed up by the scale of the theaters. The desert was a pimple on the body of German Army in Russia. Make sense?

From where I sit, the only options for coloring are Panzer Grey or the tan color. It's too early for the yellowish color that became the standard. Using the DAK colors in southern Russia in 1942 was the transitional period between early Panzer Grey and what was later to become the standard for all german AFV's....

Food for thought.

Regards,
Matt

This brings us back to the beginning of the discussion about evidence that any significant numbers of vehicles and especially the Stug III Ausf F/8 were painted in DAK colours vs the schwartzgrau which was still the official factory basecoat or more likely dunkelgelb which came into use early, prior to its official adoption in February 1943. Yes, only a small number of DAK bound armour was diverted to Barbarossa and some AFVs meant for Russia were deliberately painted DAK colours. Certainly the DAK colours were deliberately used for armour to Crete, Greece and Army Group South in the Causasus. We are hoping the book Island of Fire would give us some details on camo and clear photos.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

Actually the book that gives the best pictures (although in B&W) is "Angriff: The German Attack on Stalingrad in Photos" (Jason D. Mark).

I thought I'd throw another curve ball into the whole mix after coming across this picture:

In this one it really looks as if the Stug has two different colors applied. Look to the area around the Balkenkreuz.

This led me to some pictures from the ""Angriff" book depicting field improvised camouflage:

Improvised camouflage was the name of the game initially in North Africa.

While I was looking at some color DAK pictures I came across a couple good ones.

While this Kubelwagen is heavily covered in dust an idea of the underlying color can be surmised from the tops of the doors. This appears to be a relatively dark yellow/brown. My guess would be RAL 8000

In this second picture the color can be seen along the tops of the doors and inside the vehicle. This color appear lighter than the previous picture so perhaps it is RAL 8020 or perhaps it is simply more faded.

Lastly here is one more picture of a long barreled Stug in Stalingrad: