Good American Commanders (3 Viewers)

So I just started Master of War on George Thomas, and the author's premise is that Thomas was actually better than Grant, Sherman, even Lee. I havent gotten to the war yet but thats what Ive gotten from the intro and up through Lincoln's election. At every point that it can be pointed out, the author shows where Thomas surpassed the other 2, and sometimes Lee.
 
Sounds like it's going to be an interesting book.
Mark
 
So far the big one is that Thomas had one more brevet during the Mexican War than Grant or Sherman and was only one behind Lee and Lee was significantly older. Cant say I buy it yet.
 
I don't remember where I read this but I believe it got some decent reviews. He was not the Rock of Chickamagua for nothing.
 
Col Walter R Jones,,The finest officer I knew and briefly privileged to be his driver,,several sons and sons in law serving as junior officers in Iraq and Afghan. Recently in Arlington

Just to say that an assessment like that from a guy who was there and who knew the officer we are discussing is worth quite a lot in my book. With all due respect to the rest of us arm chair generals we are quick to say so and so was this or that but it is really a bit if a parlor game for most of us.
Thanks Bromhead.
 
Guys

Very interesting and erudite comments on Lee vs Grant and I raise my kepi to you all for keeping it civil as well as intelligent. I deliberately left myself out of the discussion having received many wounds from various Civil War Round Tables where the same discussion unfortunately dissolved into vicious diatribe akin to some of the worst casualties of the war. Another subject that always receives similar reaction is Lincoln himself.

I cannot add anything worthwhile to any of your sterling comments on both commanders except the following which I personally found extremely interesting and valid when analyzing the outcome of the war.

At the start of Grant's Overland Campaign-Longstreet warned Lee that this man Grant would fight them every inch of the way and would be unlike any of the Union Potomac Commanders they had met before (Longstreet was a good friend of Grant's and had introduced him to his cousin Julia who Grant eventually married with Longstreet as best man)
Lee could not remember Grant even though Longstreet told him he had met him during the US/Mexican war. However, Lee recalled a discussion he had with Ewell sometime during the early months of the struggle at a meeting in Davis's White House. He had asked Ewell what he thought of the top brass of the Union army-Ewell replied

"Of McDowell not much, Pope and Hooker can also be discarded, I do not know this young McClellan although he talks well perhaps that is all he will do. But there was one called Grant who I believe has left the army-but if they know and recall this fellow- I would fear him the most!"

Quite prophetic!

Reb
 
Lancer I read Attack and Die and this one, Battle tactics of the Civil War By Paddy Griffith. It was written partly as a response to Attack and Die.
 
Lancer I read Attack and Die and this one, Battle tactics of the Civil War By Paddy Griffith. It was written partly as a response to Attack and Die.
Hi Scott. I read both of these also. I found the Griffith to be the better and more useful book, but I enjoyed the mental exercise of the McWhiney book a lot. It put forth some very interesting ideas that have caused a lot of controversy. I think he made a good case but I also think he used stats that supported his argument instead of presenting a well-rounded case. Numbers can be confusing and easy to bend to one's purpose. Still, I found the book stimulating. I have found I like Griffith in just about all his military writings. -- Al
 
Griffith also put out a soft cover Battle in the Civil War which is in comic book/coloring book format. Sometimes in referring Griffith folks confuse the two.
 
Reb, Ive been searching through my books and a little internet research and I cant seem to find this one little story again:

I had read once that after the war Lee was at church. It was of course a well to do church. When the reverend called for communion the first man to walk to the rail was a black man. This shocked the church goers. But Lee stood up and knelt beside the black man anyways.

I cant seem to find it anywhere but maybe you've heard it before.
 
Reb, Ive been searching through my books and a little internet research and I cant seem to find this one little story again:

I had read once that after the war Lee was at church. It was of course a well to do church. When the reverend called for communion the first man to walk to the rail was a black man. This shocked the church goers. But Lee stood up and knelt beside the black man anyways.

I cant seem to find it anywhere but maybe you've heard it before.

Lee, was one of the finest of Americans, and is an example of what man should strive to be.

Vick
 
Reb, Ive been searching through my books and a little internet research and I cant seem to find this one little story again:

I had read once that after the war Lee was at church. It was of course a well to do church. When the reverend called for communion the first man to walk to the rail was a black man. This shocked the church goers. But Lee stood up and knelt beside the black man anyways.

I cant seem to find it anywhere but maybe you've heard it before.

I heard that story also.
Mark
 
Right on!:cool: I've been wondering for some time if Lee had accepted Lincoln's offer of command how quickly do you think the war have ended?

At the beginning of the war the North was at the disadvantage in a few areas.

First - Jefferson Davis was a man of some substantial previous military service. His time as Secretary of War had been well spent sewing the seeds for a Southern Army. The 2nd Cavalry Regiment for example was a whose who of future Southern stars. Also, Jefferson and his successor had seen to it that large quantities of arms be placed in Southern arsenals.

Second - The first call for volunteers (the majority of the troops at 1st Bull Run) were of the 3 month variety, essentially useless. When Bull Run rolled around many of them were soon closing in on the end of their enlistments and were not all to eager to fight.

While it wasnt a foregone conclusion, at the very least the first few months would go the South's way. Lee being the commander only would have made him the one to get fired, not McDowell.
 
At the beginning of the war the North was at the disadvantage in a few areas.

First - Jefferson Davis was a man of some substantial previous military service. His time as Secretary of War had been well spent sewing the seeds for a Southern Army. The 2nd Cavalry Regiment for example was a whose who of future Southern stars. Also, Jefferson and his successor had seen to it that large quantities of arms be placed in Southern arsenals.

Second - The first call for volunteers (the majority of the troops at 1st Bull Run) were of the 3 month variety, essentially useless. When Bull Run rolled around many of them were soon closing in on the end of their enlistments and were not all to eager to fight.

While it wasnt a foregone conclusion, at the very least the first few months would go the South's way. Lee being the commander only would have made him the one to get fired, not McDowell.


Harris

Excellent synopsis to Vick's question-although only supposition I also believe Lee would have lost First Bull Run if he had been the Union commander based on your evidential analysis and the proven fact that Lincoln would have panicked exactly as he did after the battle and swiftly replaced his offending general which in this scenario would have been Lee.

The communion story is well known and just another addition along with many others that perpetuated the Lee legend following the surrender. He was offered many positions by Northern and Southern entrepreneurs wanting to cash in on Lee's reputation but the old general would have nothing to do with any of them. Instead he accepted the post of superintendent of the tiny Washington College in Lexington Va which had been practically destroyed by Federal artillery. His quiet modesty, his rejection of riches and sincerity of purpose when taking on this role all added to the legend reflected in this quote he made on the first day of his tenure.

"I have a self imposed task which I must accomplish. I have led the young men of the South into battle and have seen them die on the field. I shall devote my remaining energies to training young men in becoming good Americans"

When he first appeared riding Traveller on the streets of Lexington he was mobbed by townsfolk who cheered him with raucous rebel yells. This so disturbed the general that he turned back abruptly and disappeared into the home of a friend. He was determined that he would not lend himself to spontaneous, partisan Confederate rallies while the town was under martial law. He would not seek to revive the Confederacy, nor permit himself to be idolized. Consequently, and apart from his regular church attendances he was hardly seen in public during the next five years as he concentrated on rebuilding the college and adding to it's curriculum which included (of course) engineering.

In the spring of 1870 the Southern people were given one last opportunity to express their devotion to their Confederate hero-and to reveal the depths of their growing pride in the Lost Cause. Lee left Lexington for his only postwar tour accompanied by his daughter Agnes initially to visit the graves of his daughter Annie buried in NC and his father Light Horse Harry Lee in Georgia. But the tour continued onto Florida and everywhere the train travelled throngs of people gathered to pay their respects. But with only one exception Lee declined to speak to those who gathered, some standing silently others waving and cheering as his train halted at the numerous stations along the journey, he said to his daughter Agnes

"Why should they care to see me I am only a poor old Confederate soldier?"

Lee was utterly bemused and failed to understand the emotions of those who strained for a glimpse of his old worn face. But at a stop in Charleston SC on his way home he was unable to deny the massive crowds who gathered, led by patriotic delegations, fire companies, military units and bands. The train was unable move forward due to the thousands of people now lining and blocking the track chanting "General Lee" "General Lee". A worried conductor approached the general who then tried to get his daughter to respond for him, but the excited crowd would not hear of it. Lee finally responded with a few brief words and thank you's, pleading illness, retired back to his carriage. He was exhausted by the time he reached Richmond where he was measured for a statue by the very talented Virginian sculptor Edward Valentine who told the general that he would have to visit Lexington to complete the commission, Lee replied

"Young man you had best make that visit at once"

Lee died two months later.

Reb
 
While looking at this thread and at the same time starting to read Max Hastings' Retribution, I thought about McClellan and MacArthur: McLellan was generally incompetent although Dugout Doug had some victories; and McCellan was honest while MacArthur was venal (he thought only of his aggrandizement, taking an indiscreet loan of $500,000 from the President of the Philippines before WW II). They both, however, had some interesting traits in common: an eye for public relations; MacArthur had an enormous PR machine and both had presidential ambitions. At least McClellan had the decency to wait unti he had left the military. MacArthur was openly running for the Presidency against his boss in 1944.

However, their biggest common trait was their utter contempt for civil authority. They each had no respect for their commanders in chief, two of the greatest Presidents in our country's history; MacArthur making FDR wait when the Joint Chiefs and the President met in Hawaii in 1944 and McClellan's notorious episode of making Lincoln wait to see him and then telling his servants to tell the President that he had gone to bed. I haven't even discussed Dugout Doug's firing by Truman. No one said it quite like McClellan, referring to Lincoln as the "original gorilla." Just this character trait alone renders them unfit to be considered great anything other than great psychopaths.
 
This book Im reading on George Thomas hasnt portrayed Grant to well. Shiloh is used as a prime example to show Grant's lack of military ability. Grant left his lines open to attack despite reports that A.S. Johnston was close by with his army. Grant also left his army in a position to be absolutely routed by having a river behind him.

From this book you could also gather that Grant was actually quite a vain person prone to see personal injustices in others actions.

Master of War (Benson Bobrick)
 

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