House Bill HR 7608 - For History Majors, this is not good (1 Viewer)

tdubel

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I am posting this not as a political debate, but for historical context. I think this is wrong, but this is the latest bill that has made it to the Senate for approval and it will effectively remove ALL Confederate Statues that are located on National Park Lands. Again, for the sake of history, this is wrong, so this would have the NPS remove the Virginia Memorial Statue at Gettysburg National Park. IMO how anybody with any sense thinks this is ok, is ludicrous. It also includes all Works, Items, Artifacts, etc, it is really overboard. Here is the text:

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]H.R. 7608. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Otherwise,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sections 441, 442, and 443 are the following:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]funding prohibition for confederate flags[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sec. 441. [FONT=&quot]None of the funds made available to the National Park Service by this Act may be used for the purchase or display of a Confederate flag with the exception of specific circumstances where the flags provide historical context as described in the National Park Service memorandum entitled ‘‘Immediate Action Required, No Reply Needed: Confederate Flags’’ and dated June 24, 2015.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]removal of confederate commemorative works[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sec. 442. [FONT=&quot]Notwithstanding any other provision of law or policy to the contrary, within 180 days of enactment of this Act, the National Park Service shall remove from display all physical Confederate commemorative works, such as statues, monuments, sculptures, memorials, and plaques, as defined by NPS, Management Policies 2006, §9.6.1.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]inventory of assets with confederate names[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sec. 443. [FONT=&quot]Within 90 days of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of the Interior shall submit to the Committee on Appropriations an inventory of all assets under the jurisdiction of the Department of Interior with Confederate names.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In addition to these sections, there are other references to Confederate symbolism within this bill. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sec. 130. [FONT=&quot]None of the funds appropriated in this Act for a military construction project, as defined by section 2801 of title 10, United States Code, for fiscal year 2021 may be obligated, expended, or used to construct a project located on a military installation bearing the name of a confederate officer, except in the case that a process to replace such names has been initiated.[/FONT][/FONT]


This was my point of many threads ago that we are running amok with pc and cancel culture, this is nuts. It also means that statues of Grant, Washington and anybody else are fair game.
 
I am posting this not as a political debate, but for historical context. I think this is wrong, but this is the latest bill that has made it to the Senate for approval and it will effectively remove ALL Confederate Statues that are located on National Park Lands. Again, for the sake of history, this is wrong, so this would have the NPS remove the Virginia Memorial Statue at Gettysburg National Park. IMO how anybody with any sense thinks this is ok, is ludicrous. It also includes all Works, Items, Artifacts, etc, it is really overboard. Here is the text:

H.R. 7608. Otherwise,Sections 441, 442, and 443 are the following:
funding prohibition for confederate flags
Sec. 441. None of the funds made available to the National Park Service by this Act may be used for the purchase or display of a Confederate flag with the exception of specific circumstances where the flags provide historical context as described in the National Park Service memorandum entitled ‘‘Immediate Action Required, No Reply Needed: Confederate Flags’’ and dated June 24, 2015.
removal of confederate commemorative works
Sec. 442. Notwithstanding any other provision of law or policy to the contrary, within 180 days of enactment of this Act, the National Park Service shall remove from display all physical Confederate commemorative works, such as statues, monuments, sculptures, memorials, and plaques, as defined by NPS, Management Policies 2006, §9.6.1.
inventory of assets with confederate names
Sec. 443. Within 90 days of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of the Interior shall submit to the Committee on Appropriations an inventory of all assets under the jurisdiction of the Department of Interior with Confederate names.

In addition to these sections, there are other references to Confederate symbolism within this bill. Sec. 130. None of the funds appropriated in this Act for a military construction project, as defined by section 2801 of title 10, United States Code, for fiscal year 2021 may be obligated, expended, or used to construct a project located on a military installation bearing the name of a confederate officer, except in the case that a process to replace such names has been initiated.


This was my point of many threads ago that we are running amok with pc and cancel culture, this is nuts. It also means that statues of Grant, Washington and anybody else are fair game.

They're wiping clean the slate of history. Pandemic aside, l think we've seen the last of Civil War re-enactments. Portrayals of the CSA will simply not be permitted. Too bad, seeing the re-enactment of the Battle of Bull Run as a young boy instilled a life long study of the ACW. Chris 9
 
They're wiping clean the slate of history. Pandemic aside, l think we've seen the last of Civil War re-enactments. Portrayals of the CSA will simply not be permitted. Too bad, seeing the re-enactment of the Battle of Bull Run as a young boy instilled a life long study of the ACW. Chris 9


I know, it is sad. I wish we would take the view like Europe did regarding WW2. They display it warts and all so that everyone can remember and learn. Additionally, if you have not been to the US Holocaust museum, I highly recommend it. It is a sober reminder and is somber. It also goes into great detail regarding the climate in Germany as well as all of the "Nazi Players". It doesn't glorify Heydrich, it simply portrays the facts about him in great detail. It is important to understand all of it.

I wish this view was given to the Confederacy. In my own mind, all this does is further the theoretical Lost Cause which is NOT what you want people to grasp on to. I equate it to the so called gun bans, the best way to sell more guns is to ban them, same with flags, etc etc etc.

I am of the opinion that our nation will never learn, as I have posted many times and many places - we are truly a nation of Dummies at critical times.

TD
 
History will show the union victory was easy and they evidently weren’t fighting anyone!!!!
 
The real cause of the aggression and the many tensions preceding the war was that the great and modern northern capital wanted to appropriate the south which was still an agricultural and archaic economy, exactly as it did a few years after the civil war, giving freedom to the frontiersmen to colonize the west, accelerating the genocide of the Indians (while the southerners wanted to grant the lands of the west upon payment of the conquered territories).

The ex-post reason for slavery is just an excuse to justify the economic and political destruction of the southern states. The proof is that the north had been attacking the southerners for some time for whatever reason, even in parliament, and in no way did they want to help the south to resolve the now unacceptable institution. Further proof of the Northern bad faith was that the freed slaves were not compensated !! They were left to their fate, without homes, money or work to fill the ghettos in the northern cities. In the southern cities there were never ghettos.

It seems ridiculous to me today 's persistence to blame the south through Hollywood films, television, politics .... Angry attacks for events that took place 150 years ago!

As a European I do not understand the politically correct pushed to a level of puritan fanaticism and hypocrisy, the systematic deformation of history for political purposes worthy of totalitarian regimes of decades ago.
 
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How’s this not political?

My whole point is that this is taking it too far from a historical viewpoint, this is not about political parties. I think it is sad that it is buried in an appropriations bill. I think anbody who appreciates history should be against this. Today it is Confederate monuments, tomorrow it will be the founding fathers amd more the next day. End of day most people collect toy soldiers as a study of history, will they be banned next?
My other point of posting this was information to the board as i would imagine most people care about this
 
Those who forget the past are bound to repeat it.In some ways it is our own fault as we let a small loud minority dictate what ever they want.We expect our leaders to keep this kind of stuff in check but they have absolutely no backbone to stand up to the pc crowd.
Mark
 
Those who forget the past are bound to repeat it.In some ways it is our own fault as we let a small loud minority dictate what ever they want.We expect our leaders to keep this kind of stuff in check but they have absolutely no backbone to stand up to the pc crowd.
Mark

Mark, I think its being left up to us old folks to stand up to the 'Woke' crowd these days. Most politicians are too worried about offending someone.

Society seems to be at war with itself. As they say divide and conquer, old against young, black against white......

Being offended doesn't mean your right, but for some bizarre reason we're allowing a minority to try and change history or re-write it.

I've just watched the body cam footage of the George FLOYD incident. Now doesn't that give a different perspective to what was really going on?

Interesting how the BLM movement and main stream media have gone quiet when confronted with a fuller picture and the fact FLOYD was drugged out of his head.

PS. Like your new Avatar.
 
Quick note here, I really didn't post this to start any debate or opinions. It was posted as information that I thought may be useful to readers on this forum of what was going on that I believe could affect our preservation of history. I do fear that if this passes, it is only the beginning.

Tom
 
The real cause of the aggression and the many tensions preceding the war was that the great and modern northern capital wanted to appropriate the south which was still an agricultural and archaic economy, exactly as it did a few years after the civil war, giving freedom to the frontiersmen to colonize the west, accelerating the genocide of the Indians (while the southerners wanted to grant the lands of the west upon payment of the conquered territories).

The ex-post reason for slavery is just an excuse to justify the economic and political destruction of the southern states. The proof is that the north had been attacking the southerners for some time for whatever reason, even in parliament, and in no way did they want to help the south to resolve the now unacceptable institution. Further proof of the Northern bad faith was that the freed slaves were not compensated !! They were left to their fate, without homes, money or work to fill the ghettos in the northern cities. In the southern cities there were never ghettos.

It seems ridiculous to me today 's persistence to blame the south through Hollywood films, television, politics .... Angry attacks for events that took place 150 years ago!

As a European I do not understand the politically correct pushed to a level of puritan fanaticism and hypocrisy, the systematic deformation of history for political purposes worthy of totalitarian regimes of decades ago.



Just curious, does Italy have statues of Mussolini in public spaces? Does France have statues of Marshall Petain in public spaces?


Your quote "the ex-post reason for slavery is just an excuse to justify the economic and political destruction of the southern states" has been overwhelmingly discredited by historians.

As far as saying "in Southern cities there were never ghettos" is really bending the truth with semantics. I traveled the South in the late 60's and African Americans lived in segregated communities
with inferior schools, neglected health facilities and voter suppression. Segregation, discrimination, redlining and outright violence in both the North and South keeps minorities in "ghettos" or
what we call today...slums, inner cities, high crime areas, run down, tenements and underserved communities..........


Interesting to get a European perspective on our PC and racial issues.













It is interesting to get a European perspective on our Civil War and race relations but I would be careful to use multiple sources and actual first hand accounts from those who were the victims.
 
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Guys,
I am going to ask again to all on this thread, this was posted as an informational post only from a historical perspective. I don't want this to turn into a debate on the Civil War, its not at all the point.

The point is that history should be preserved, warts and all and I do not think it is right, just or fair what is in this bill. I would hope (and historians have loudly from what I read) and continue to hope that common sense will prevail here and monuments will not be removed from National Battlefield Parks. There is zero reason to do this. The slippery slope will see all leaders on both sides of this conflict assaulted by revisionist history. You have already seen it in the violent toppling of statues in public places that has occurred.

Again, this came from Sons of Union Veterans of which I am a member. They are speaking out nationally on this and hopefully other groups will too. My point is this is running amok and if you want to preserve history, speak up!

If the threads continue to debate the beaten horse of causes, I will ask Pat to step in, delete the posts and just leave up the FYI post in the beginning.

TD
 
This is some input from the NPCA (National Parks Conservation Association ) on H.R. 7608.

The bill prevents NPS from spending money on buying or displaying a Confederate flag (Sec. 441) “with the exception of specific circumstances where the flags provide historical context.” While we applaud the committee’s concern about such an important issue, it is our understanding that NPS does not spend any of its funds on the purchase or display of Confederate flags. The agency does allow for visitors to national cemeteries to place small Confederate flags at the graves of Confederate soldiers, but any costs associated with the placement of these flags are covered by private citizens. Given that standing policy, this provision appears unnecessary.

Likewise, the bill mandates that within 6 months, NPS “shall remove from display all physical Confederate commemorative works, such as statues, monuments, sculptures, memorials, and plaques, as defined by NPS, Management Policies 2006, §9.6.1” (Sec 442). NPCA commends the committee’s concerns on this important topic and supports the removal of works that do not contribute to the historical understanding of the site in which they are placed. However, because the significance of this issue requires a deliberative and inclusive process, we believe the committee should consider funding a commission that includes scholars and historic preservation expertise, among others.

The bill requires the Secretary of the Interior to submit to Congress "an inventory” of all assets bearing Confederate names under the agency’s jurisdiction (Sec 443). We applaud the committee’s concern with this important issue. In addition, NPCA supports Rep. McEachin’s legislation (H.R. 7550) to authorize the Secretary of the Interior to conduct an inventory and review of Confederate monuments on federal lands; we support this approach.

- My understanding of the Bill is that Confederate Monuments are in no danger within battlefield parks because they obviously ''contribute to the historical understanding of the site in which they are place.''

 
Guys,
I am going to ask again to all on this thread, this was posted as an informational post only from a historical perspective. I don't want this to turn into a debate on the Civil War, its not at all the point.

The point is that history should be preserved, warts and all and I do not think it is right, just or fair what is in this bill. I would hope (and historians have loudly from what I read) and continue to hope that common sense will prevail here and monuments will not be removed from National Battlefield Parks. There is zero reason to do this. The slippery slope will see all leaders on both sides of this conflict assaulted by revisionist history. You have already seen it in the violent toppling of statues in public places that has occurred.

Again, this came from Sons of Union Veterans of which I am a member. They are speaking out nationally on this and hopefully other groups will too. My point is this is running amok and if you want to preserve history, speak up!

If the threads continue to debate the beaten horse of causes, I will ask Pat to step in, delete the posts and just leave up the FYI post in the beginning.

TD

I wouldn't stress too much TD, this topic highlights a growing concern for all of us.
 
This is some input from the NPCA (National Parks Conservation Association ) on H.R. 7608.

The bill prevents NPS from spending money on buying or displaying a Confederate flag (Sec. 441) “with the exception of specific circumstances where the flags provide historical context.” While we applaud the committee’s concern about such an important issue, it is our understanding that NPS does not spend any of its funds on the purchase or display of Confederate flags. The agency does allow for visitors to national cemeteries to place small Confederate flags at the graves of Confederate soldiers, but any costs associated with the placement of these flags are covered by private citizens. Given that standing policy, this provision appears unnecessary.

Likewise, the bill mandates that within 6 months, NPS “shall remove from display all physical Confederate commemorative works, such as statues, monuments, sculptures, memorials, and plaques, as defined by NPS, Management Policies 2006, §9.6.1” (Sec 442). NPCA commends the committee’s concerns on this important topic and supports the removal of works that do not contribute to the historical understanding of the site in which they are placed. However, because the significance of this issue requires a deliberative and inclusive process, we believe the committee should consider funding a commission that includes scholars and historic preservation expertise, among others.

The bill requires the Secretary of the Interior to submit to Congress "an inventory” of all assets bearing Confederate names under the agency’s jurisdiction (Sec 443). We applaud the committee’s concern with this important issue. In addition, NPCA supports Rep. McEachin’s legislation (H.R. 7550) to authorize the Secretary of the Interior to conduct an inventory and review of Confederate monuments on federal lands; we support this approach.

- My understanding of the Bill is that Confederate Monuments are in no danger within battlefield parks because they obviously ''contribute to the historical understanding of the site in which they are place.''



The Sons of Union Veterans as well as several preservation groups are up in arms about it because it should not even be a part of the legislative process. The National Parks, especially the battlefields all have a review process that they follow to the letter of the law when it comes to any new exhibits, monuments, etc. For example, you cannot donate a collection in any shape or format without going through an excruciating process where in the end, they accept about 5% of what is offered. There is zero need to involve the Congress in anything like this regarding the National Parks. You will not find a historian anywhere who commented in favor of this. Like I said before, if this passes, the next bill will include language that questions Columbus, Washington, Jefferson, Adams, etc.

I think I remember on here comments regarding I was crazy for even suggesting stuff like this, well, the last time I looked - Columbus was in the Inner Harbor in Baltimore, Grant has fallen in numerous areas, etc etc etc.

Here is my only political statement if you call it that - there is ZERO reason for current politicians to muck with our Nation's history to further their current aspirations.
 
This will probably be my only post on the topic but here is a blog post from Kevin Levin, who runs one of the most well known and read civil war blogs, Civil War Memory:

Protect and Interpret Confederate Monuments on Civil War Battlefields

http://cwmemory.com/2020/08/07/prot...federate-monuments-on-civil-war-battlefields/

I also direct you to the article by Professor Gary Gallagher:

Leave them Standing: Confederate Monuments must Remain at Gettysburg to Help Interpret the Civil War’s Causes and Consequences

https://www.historynet.com/leave-th...jXhqp3f_qTSTZu1G5eHjuFKUfXa7_qsnsMCqbh-OeAXrY

If you wish to have another interminable civil war discussion, I invite you to start another thread.
 
This is absolutely unbelievable.

The three most popular spots on the Gettysburg battlefield are;

3.) Little Round Top
2.) The angle/high water mark
1.) The Virginia monument/spot where Pickett's Charge stepped off from

Can't tell you how many times I've stood along the stone wall at the angle and looked across the battlefield and off in the distance, you can see the Virginia monument with Lee sitting on top of it, it's an incredibly moving sight.

As an American, it saddens me to think of how many AMERICANS died crossing that field, yes, they are southerners, but Americans, the ACW was Americans killing Americans, the whole thing is tragic and sad.

I'm not into protesting/picketing/going to rallies, but as God is my witness, if there is a protest in Gettysburg over this, count me in.

Those Confederate monuments belong on that battlefield, it's not a park in downtown anytown USA, it's on government property in a NPS park, a former battlefield.

You'd have to be a fleabrain to find monuments on a battlefield offensive; where on Gods earth do you draw the line.

You draw it here.

Try to take those statues down and see what happens.

IF it does happen, I'll never step foot in Gettysburg again.

This sickens and disgusts me.
 
This will probably be my only post on the topic but here is a blog post from Kevin Levin, who runs one of the most well known and read civil war blogs, Civil War Memory:

Protect and Interpret Confederate Monuments on Civil War Battlefields

http://cwmemory.com/2020/08/07/prot...federate-monuments-on-civil-war-battlefields/

I also direct you to the article by Professor Gary Gallagher:

Leave them Standing: Confederate Monuments must Remain at Gettysburg to Help Interpret the Civil War’s Causes and Consequences

https://www.historynet.com/leave-th...jXhqp3f_qTSTZu1G5eHjuFKUfXa7_qsnsMCqbh-OeAXrY

If you wish to have another interminable civil war discussion, I invite you to start another thread.

Thanks Brad, having read both of these previously, they are good discussions. As I said, my point is not about the cause of the War, it is about the information that this is out there and IMO is scary to leave these decisions to modern day politicos whose only care is their reelection. This is one of those things where I actually believe civil lobbying activities are worthwhile.

TD
 
This is absolutely unbelievable.

The three most popular spots on the Gettysburg battlefield are;

3.) Little Round Top
2.) The angle/high water mark
1.) The Virginia monument/spot where Pickett's Charge stepped off from

Can't tell you how many times I've stood along the stone wall at the angle and looked across the battlefield and off in the distance, you can see the Virginia monument with Lee sitting on top of it, it's an incredibly moving sight.

As an American, it saddens me to think of how many AMERICANS died crossing that field, yes, they are southerners, but Americans, the ACW was Americans killing Americans, the whole thing is tragic and sad.

I'm not into protesting/picketing/going to rallies, but as God is my witness, if there is a protest in Gettysburg over this, count me in.

Those Confederate monuments belong on that battlefield, it's not a park in downtown anytown USA, it's on government property in a NPS park, a former battlefield.

You'd have to be a fleabrain to find monuments on a battlefield offensive; where on Gods earth do you draw the line.

You draw it here.

Try to take those statues down and see what happens.

IF it does happen, I'll never step foot in Gettysburg again.

This sickens and disgusts me.

I'm with George 100%. My favorite regiments from the Civil War are the 14th Brooklyn (Red Legged Devils), the 39th New York (Garibaldi Guard) and the 79th New York (Highland Guard). The first two of these regiments saw considerable action at Gettysburg, and it has become one of my favorite places to visit with my son. The men who gave their last full measure on that battlefield deserve to be remembered, and taking down the confederate statues will cheapen the Gettysburg experience for everyone. If there is a protest, I will happily join George in standing against this politically correct stupidity.
 
I'm with George 100%. My favorite regiments from the Civil War are the 14th Brooklyn (Red Legged Devils), the 39th New York (Garibaldi Guard) and the 79th New York (Highland Guard). The first two of these regiments saw considerable action at Gettysburg, and it has become one of my favorite places to visit with my son. The men who gave their last full measure on that battlefield deserve to be remembered, and taking down the confederate statues will cheapen the Gettysburg experience for everyone. If there is a protest, I will happily join George in standing against this politically correct stupidity.


A priceless pic would be both you and George in 11th MS Uniforms or 4th VA Uniforms standing in Defiance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just kidding. Long story short, I think we all appreciate this in my words assault on our history. I was at least happy to see this being raised by the Sons of Union Veterans, ironically Sons of Confederate Veterans so far crickets ............................:( As usual, the Union is more organized, some things about history never change!!!!:)

TD
 

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