Is first legion edge cutting. (1 Viewer)

This is the type of thread that is absolutely useless......Everyone knows by now that all collectors have their opinion as to what they like best and you will never change their mind, so why bother. I see some posts here that to me are abusrd....but that is just me. I have started threads like this myself so I am also guilty....No more...Waste of time. Alex

Gentle Friends,

And,...with Alex's comment above, it is time to turn down the heat and bring this discussion to a close.

Alex makes the point that we all have our preferences and we tend to stick to them. However, civil critique can introduce new factors that can alter perceptions of our favored products. Unfortunately, disrespectful debate only serves to more deeply entrench us in a fierce and sometimes insulting defense of our favorites.

This topic has been debated numerous times with a similar result. As Alex states, no one changes their preferences. It is time to allow each of us the privilege of enjoying what we most prize and to do so without the negative judgement of others. So, take a deep breath, enjoy your personal preferences, count your blessings during this holiday season, and let the tension of this thread melt away.

This thread is closed until further notice.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat
 
After further review by the mods...

There is no reason that we cannot have a thread talking about FL quality, but every time one is started it leads to deletions and infractions.

We have reopened the thread to allow the conversation to continue. Anyone who is not able to discuss this in a civil manner will be infracted and banned from the thread.

Remember, those who disagree with you are not stupid...they just have a different opinion.
 
We do not have this my stuff is better than your stuff discussions on the glossy threads;

Of course NO, they all look the same, a little toy with no details that shines, no need to debate about this..

Some people prefer matte...others prefer glossy, so yes, some people WOULD wish to debate this. There actually is quite a bit of variety among glossy companies.

So...once again I'll say...putting down what others collect is 'out of bounds.'
 
In response to Simmo’s question whether FL is edge cutting… I think they have certainly bought something new to the TS market.

Firstly, I think their approach to ranges is different. In an area like Naps I think that, whereas other manufacturers have largely stuck with Waterloo and even then to high profile units, FL is covering the Napoleonic era with Nassau, Prussia, Bavaria etc. Equally with the Crusaders (the only line I collect) they focused on the Fall of Acre, whereas the Third Crusade with Lionheart and Saladin is seen as better known. The Renaissance line is another bold and different venture.

Secondly, I think the detailing and painting for figures is better quality than a number of other manufacturers. For the Naps etc there are multiple figures to create a diverse firing line or square. That said I do not collect their Naps because I have a large KC collection that I am happy with. When I decided to get a Crusader line going I opted for FL over KC. As the price of KC increases it is near FL; the FL crusaders looked bigger than their other ranges; and as space becomes an issue, I have opted for a less is more and gone for a more detailed, painted product. However, I do agree that some of the faces look somewhat repetitive though on the Stalingrad line. Also, when it comes to AFV’s I think that Figarti and JJD are producing products that give FL a good run for their money.

This is what I like about FL...


P1030015.jpg


Gazza
 
Good to see this thread reinstated , as adults we should be able to discuss these things without
throwing the toys from the pram as it were :)

Rob
 
Good to see this thread reinstated , as adults we should be able to discuss these things without
throwing the toys from the pram as it were :)

Rob

Well said Rob I collect in the theme of Crusaders from both KC & FL and they are both
AWSOME !!!
 
This is the type of thread that is absolutely useless......Everyone knows by now that all collectors have their opinion as to what they like best and you will never change their mind, so why bother. I see some posts here that to me are abusrd....but that is just me. I have started threads like this myself so I am also guilty....No more...Waste of time. Alex

In fairness it was started by someone relatively new to the range who was simply making a personal assessment.

First Legion sells a product at a premium price on the premise that the quality compromise it makes compared to high end Russian matte figures is less than the competition. If a potential customer does not value the differentiators or is unable to detect them then it makes no sense to pay the premium. Also, if photorealism was the only factor driving people's interest in this hobby no one would collect glossies. Since this is clearly not the case we can assume people get their enjoyment from a variety of factors.
 
In fairness it was started by someone relatively new to the range who was simply making a personal assessment.

First Legion sells a product at a premium price on the premise that the quality compromise it makes compared to high end Russian matte figures is less than the competition. If a potential customer does not value the differentiators or is unable to detect them then it makes no sense to pay the premium. Also, if photorealism was the only factor driving people's interest in this hobby no one would collect glossies. Since this is clearly not the case we can assume people get their enjoyment from a variety of factors.

And that is why there is no "best" manufacturer. It depends on the collectors preferences on quality and price. Some collectors even collect figures in the same range from more than one manufacturer or prefer one manufacturer for a particular range and a different manufacturer for another range. So when someone says my manufacturer rules - that's nonsense unless they mean it is the best manufacturer for his preferences and not for the entire buyer market - which is usually what is meant. And trashing a manufacturer's product is essentially telling people that buy from that manufacturer that they have made a foolish choice.

Terry
 
Well said Rob I collect in the theme of Crusaders from both KC & FL and they are both
AWSOME !!!

Cheers mate

And that is why there is no "best" manufacturer. It depends on the collectors preferences on quality and price. Some collectors even collect figures in the same range from more than one manufacturer or prefer one manufacturer for a particular range and a different manufacturer for another range. So when someone says my manufacturer rules - that's nonsense unless they mean it is the best manufacturer for his preferences and not for the entire buyer market - which is usually what is meant. And trashing a manufacturer's product is essentially telling people that buy from that manufacturer that they have made a foolish choice.

Terry

Good points. It's all in the eye of the beholder at the end of the day . :smile2:

Rob
 
Terry just nailed it

Even though I collect only FL and russian figures there are some FL figures I prefer and some much less, from one range to another and within one range :

From what I like the most to what i like the least in FL figures I own

Naps Mounted personalities
Naps french old guards
Naps Gordons
Naps prussians
Samurais
Naps Nassau
AWI
Naps chasseurs
Naps russians
Naps french cavalry
Naps brit guard
WWII
Saracens

And this order changes all the time depending on the mood of the day when I visit my museum

Alex
 
Interesting to see the words 'sculpting' and 'painting' used many times throughout this thread, with a view to establishing what makes a superior figure.

My view is that both the painting and sculpyting (if people are using this as a generic term) can be divided up in to a lot more areas.

Whilst some of the high end Russian figures are quite obviously incredibly detailed (and I could only dream of achieving anything close to this level), there are a number of things I would look at re the paint work.

Brightness / colour - Whilst acepting that some of the colours used on K&C (and more recently CS) are brighter than they would have been in the field, I actually like this approach. Having shelf after shelf of boring Dirty Khaki, Olive Drab and Field Grey doesn't necessarily make for an attractive display.

Detail - The detail on a lot of the FL figures is very neatly done. I sometimes feel that too much detail can be a negative thing however. The painting of things like fingernails and sometimes teeth, doesn't look right on small figures (Figarti, for instance).

Shading - Although sometimes a bit hit and miss, Figarti's shading is IMO the best of the current reasonably priced figures (I use the word reasonably, very loosely!) Many of the other manufactiurers use a more simple (not suprising, given the numbers that are turned out) two tone approach to shading.

Outlining - Obviously, K&C use this to accentuate the details of the sculpt. Sometimes this works better than others, but there are many figures out there that have no outlining and this can make the figure appear very bland.

I would also break sculpting down further.

Detail - How defined are the features on the figure, facial, equipment, weapons, hands etc.

Anatomically correct (believable) poses - Figarti have fallen foul of this in the past. They have some very wooden figures amongst their releases (although some are a lot better than others) . FL, I would say have also got a fair few 'that don't look natural poses' amongst their releases. K&C and TGM tend to look fairly natural, although some of the poses by K&C can be repetative.

Proportionality - How does the equipment, uniform etc look on the figure. K&C rifles - too fat, TGM rifles - too skinny, FL WWII helmets - too small etc

Faces - Each manufacturer seems to have a broad style (or several styles). Early Figarti WWII faces were all clones of Ernest Borgnine (excuse the spelling), K&C seem to have one sculpter doing a particular range so the faces within that range are very similar (eg, the FJ series), FLs WWII, as has been mentioned previously on this thread - detailed, but many are very similar. CS are likewise, with the gaunter look

Clothing / uniform - how the creases et al in the uniform are portrayed, from the very creased of CS to some of the less obvious and more subdued from other manufacturers

But,
after all that is said, what makes a 'must have' figure for me, is neither the painting or the sculpting. It is now mainly down to the pose. I like the action figures, and the ones that get my money are those that actually look like they're in action, rather than holding a weapon for the camera. And for my money, there are 2 brands that stand out in this field. Thomas Gunn and Conte.

Conte have led the way (IMO!) in consistently turning out all out action poses right from their first WWII releases, through the Spartans and on in to present day, with leaping Zulus and hammer wielding barbarians.

TGM have done likewise. Take the FJ kneeling MP40 and FG42 poses (and the latest SS officer with the MP40) - they actually look like they're firing the weapon. The Para sentry, foot on crate - that, looks realistic.

Now with Conte, I make sacrifices in terms of painting (generally), but the kid in me wants the action poses that they produce.

With all of these manufacturers, I don't think anyone of them has got the complete package (at least not to my mind), and I view this selection process as to where a collectors priorities lie. Mine are with the pose, others are more concernd with a high level of detailed painting.

As to the original question (for anyone still awake after reading these ramblings), are FL 'cutting edge'? My humble opinion is no, they're not, but they do produce figures generally that are of a high standard in most of the above areas. They charge slightly more (but not a huge amount over current prices) which allows them to get more of these factors to a high standard.

Can't remember where I was going with this post........^&confuse{sm2}
 
Hi Simon,

I think you just posted an excellent critique of some of the comparative strengths and deficits of a variety of popular manufacturers. I also think your conclusion is based on a carefully considered, reasonably objective, and comprehensively reviewed series of respectfully presented observations. Further, I appreciate the care you have taken to indicate that each manufacturer produces figures worthy of the admiration of collectors whose preferences match the strengths of the various products.

Thank you for taking the time to compose and post your observations. I have enjoyed reading your post and I have enjoyed considering your thoughts on the issue.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :smile2:
 
Wow, Simon,
never thought you could write a post that long ^&grin
Not only very long but also very good in my opinion.
Thanks for this well written post, although all the ice in my drink has melted while reading it :rolleyes2: ^&grin
Konrad
 
Interesting to see the words 'sculpting' and 'painting' used many times throughout this thread, with a view to establishing what makes a superior figure.

My view is that both the painting and sculpyting (if people are using this as a generic term) can be divided up in to a lot more areas.

Whilst some of the high end Russian figures are quite obviously incredibly detailed (and I could only dream of achieving anything close to this level), there are a number of things I would look at re the paint work.

Brightness / colour - Whilst acepting that some of the colours used on K&C (and more recently CS) are brighter than they would have been in the field, I actually like this approach. Having shelf after shelf of boring Dirty Khaki, Olive Drab and Field Grey doesn't necessarily make for an attractive display.

Detail - The detail on a lot of the FL figures is very neatly done. I sometimes feel that too much detail can be a negative thing however. The painting of things like fingernails and sometimes teeth, doesn't look right on small figures (Figarti, for instance).

Shading - Although sometimes a bit hit and miss, Figarti's shading is IMO the best of the current reasonably priced figures (I use the word reasonably, very loosely!) Many of the other manufactiurers use a more simple (not suprising, given the numbers that are turned out) two tone approach to shading.

Outlining - Obviously, K&C use this to accentuate the details of the sculpt. Sometimes this works better than others, but there are many figures out there that have no outlining and this can make the figure appear very bland.

I would also break sculpting down further.

Detail - How defined are the features on the figure, facial, equipment, weapons, hands etc.

Anatomically correct (believable) poses - Figarti have fallen foul of this in the past. They have some very wooden figures amongst their releases (although some are a lot better than others) . FL, I would say have also got a fair few 'that don't look natural poses' amongst their releases. K&C and TGM tend to look fairly natural, although some of the poses by K&C can be repetative.

Proportionality - How does the equipment, uniform etc look on the figure. K&C rifles - too fat, TGM rifles - too skinny, FL WWII helmets - too small etc

Faces - Each manufacturer seems to have a broad style (or several styles). Early Figarti WWII faces were all clones of Ernest Borgnine (excuse the spelling), K&C seem to have one sculpter doing a particular range so the faces within that range are very similar (eg, the FJ series), FLs WWII, as has been mentioned previously on this thread - detailed, but many are very similar. CS are likewise, with the gaunter look

Clothing / uniform - how the creases et al in the uniform are portrayed, from the very creased of CS to some of the less obvious and more subdued from other manufacturers

But,
after all that is said, what makes a 'must have' figure for me, is neither the painting or the sculpting. It is now mainly down to the pose. I like the action figures, and the ones that get my money are those that actually look like they're in action, rather than holding a weapon for the camera. And for my money, there are 2 brands that stand out in this field. Thomas Gunn and Conte.

Conte have led the way (IMO!) in consistently turning out all out action poses right from their first WWII releases, through the Spartans and on in to present day, with leaping Zulus and hammer wielding barbarians.

TGM have done likewise. Take the FJ kneeling MP40 and FG42 poses (and the latest SS officer with the MP40) - they actually look like they're firing the weapon. The Para sentry, foot on crate - that, looks realistic.

Now with Conte, I make sacrifices in terms of painting (generally), but the kid in me wants the action poses that they produce.

With all of these manufacturers, I don't think anyone of them has got the complete package (at least not to my mind), and I view this selection process as to where a collectors priorities lie. Mine are with the pose, others are more concernd with a high level of detailed painting.

As to the original question (for anyone still awake after reading these ramblings), are FL 'cutting edge'? My humble opinion is no, they're not, but they do produce figures generally that are of a high standard in most of the above areas. They charge slightly more (but not a huge amount over current prices) which allows them to get more of these factors to a high standard.

Can't remember where I was going with this post........^&confuse{sm2}
Good fair post
 
And that is why there is no "best" manufacturer. It depends on the collectors preferences on quality and price. Some collectors even collect figures in the same range from more than one manufacturer or prefer one manufacturer for a particular range and a different manufacturer for another range. So when someone says my manufacturer rules - that's nonsense unless they mean it is the best manufacturer for his preferences and not for the entire buyer market - which is usually what is meant. And trashing a manufacturer's product is essentially telling people that buy from that manufacturer that they have made a foolish choice.

Terry

I collect from a variety of manufacturers, matte and gloss, just can´t seem to focus or to be faithful to one of them^&grin... And yes some ranges are better done by a manufacturer than by another...

Paulo
 
[We do not have this my stuff is better than your stuff discussions on the glossy threads;

Of course NO, they all look the same, a little toy with no details that shines, no need to debate about this..

Olá Rodrigo, I have to respectfully disagree on this one. If you take a look at a John Firth gloss painted figure (connoisseur gloss that's what I call it), a Britains Redcoats figure, a Tommy Atkins Jacobite Rebellion figure or an Imperial Productions figure you'll surely find a lot of shining detail:wink2:. Those will certainly look different than old Britains, Dorset or Alexanders Toy Soldiers, both in sculpting and painting, which doesn't mean that simpler figures don't have a special traditional toy soldier charm about them...

Paulo
 
Very interesting post from Sir Simon if I may make so bold. I also believe its not always so cut and dried in these things. I think First Legion have made some great figures , an example of this were some of their Stalingrad figures, especially the kneeling or crouching sets that I thought excellent. On the other hand I thought the crew of their artillery piece too static and lacked the action that Simon was talking about, its swings and roundabouts , good and not so good etc. TG have made some superb FJ's and continue to do so, am I as keen on their Naughty forties stuff, not so much. Difficult to make blanket statements about companies I find, other than that they maybe your own particular fave.

Rob
 
Interesting points Simon but I don't think they addressed the points about cutting edge. Does TG fall into that category? Not at all. Their game plan is to be a mini K & C, hardly innovative. They're just trying to fill parts of the market that they think K & C has missed, and not as well in my opinion. On the other hand, as I mentioned previously, FL has successfully brought Russian style painting to the ts world, so much so that Aeroart feels threatened by them. That is true innovation: doing something others haven't done before.

Your post is a good primer on what makes a good figure but that is not what Simmo originally asked.
 
Some people prefer matte...others prefer glossy, so yes, some people WOULD wish to debate this. There actually is quite a bit of variety among glossy companies.

So...once again I'll say...putting down what others collect is 'out of bounds.'


Hey Brad, any comments on this remark. He makes my case. We do not have this my stuff is better than your stuff discussions on the glossy threads, or Figarti Threads or the CS threads. Do you see a pattern here...This is a constant pissing contest between the members of 2 mfg. factions and not some social class warfare. Liberal mumbo jumbo to smoke screen the original point. As to my wallet, I can handle any TS purchases I so choose as worth it. It is not I who constantly presents F/L as an elitist company for elitist collectors. All these type of threads are designed to justify the high prices of this particular mfg. in the minds of those who choose to collect them, whether we are told constantly that they are the best painted, best sculpted and all other companies should just close their doors now. Also, I might want and probably could buy that high priced sports car, but I would not, just to say I had one in order to embarrass others who do not. Michael


Michael highlighted this point here and I wasn’t thinking to put nobody down; it was only my thoughts on glossy...and I still thinking that they all look the same, it doesn’t matter if is Zulu War, or Durbar series. If you collect them, good for you, I do respect that, I have goods friends that collect lots of glossy, and wouldn’t not stop me to say to them as I say here, that for me it is only small soldiers that has little detail that shine too much...
I do not see any reason to start to cry about this...

Critique is the lifeblood of improvement....{eek3}
 

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