king and country tiger 1 wittmann (1 Viewer)

Blowtorch said:
The lower model (turret in the field) is based on a real photo which is on page 183 of the ATB book "Panzers in Normandy". If there is one photo, there are probably more in the file. Email the editor at ATB & I'm sure he will tell you where the file can be located.
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Wittmann_Tiger_007.jpg


This picture was taken by Serge Varin in 1945 when he was cycling down the Caen-Falaise road (route nationale 158). It is apparently the only photo he took to survive.
 
fmethorst said:
Wittmann_Tiger_007.jpg


This picture was taken by Serge Varin in 1945 when he was cycling down the Caen-Falaise road (route nationale 158). It is apparently the only photo he took to survive.
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That is my understanding too - it is the only actual photo of 007 and it shows a tank with zimmerit. But only indirect evidence is available as to whether it had steel or rubber wheels and that evidence is somewhat contradictory but points a bit more towards the tank being a mid-production Tiger. The original point of this discussion was whether the K&C model portrayed as a mid-production Tiger was correct or not.

Terry
 
Your very welcome

And in the first link I sent, the Missing Lynx guys are showing a photo they believe to be the 4th wreck in Wittmann's group & eventually Yann Joualt talks himself out of it...but it is indeed the same wreck as in the aerial. So the 4th tank in that group had rubber. What this all means to you fellows I have no idea. But the geography is correct
 
the chassis no 250802,was taken from a book called "modellers guide to tiger tanks",the list of the tigers modelled comes with the chassis nos of each tiger ,that of course does not mean the compilers of this book are correct,i cannot comment how scientific their research was or how detailed,just thought it may bring some clarity to our discussion,hope this info helps the cause,is there anyway of matching the chassis nos to unit nos?,is there any records from ss101 matching chassis nos to particular tiger id nos ?,that would answer all our questions on 007.
 
Blowtorch said:
In my experience, most American & Brit authors avoid non-English archives.
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I wish to retract this statement. A British author contacted me & assured me that he digs deep into Freiburg & I believe him. And Brits do have a fantastic lineage of historians I must admit.
 
OzDigger said:
Terry, this link may explain the different Tiger I suspension systems more clearly: http://www.alanhamby.com/suspension.shtml
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That's a good article Oz, but I still find it difficult on the old photos to tell the rubber vs steel wheels apart if the shot is from a distance. I tend to look at the configuration of the road wheels to see if there are 18 or 24 with one overlapping the drive sprocket. If there is a closeup shot of the wheels it is no problem. Then I can see the bolt heads? running around the steel wheel.

Terry
 
Let's try to resolve the question of 007's wheels by reference to the photo of 007 and the excellent reference book "DW to Tiger 1"
Many of the roadwheels have been removed from the wreck; in fact I cannot see any remaining roadwheels on the left side. There are silhouettes of roadwheels on the right but they tell us nothing.

The idler wheels are very definitely the smaller 600mm type. According to the book, these were introduced in February 1944 "after the steel wheels".

The steel wheels were introduced, as per the book, on hull #822. A cold-start device was introduced on hull #823. We can clearly see this device in the photo.

A protective ring was added to the hull top starting with hull #850. We can't see this in the photo, but the turret hatch hinge has clearly been modified to clear it. This suggests the turret was built at least close to this point, if not after it.

The external travel lock was dropped from the design, at hull #876. This is not present on 007.

I therefore conclude that 007 falls well within the steel-wheel period.

The next question is what other features it does have. Chronologically, the next things added to the Tiger were the thick roof and monocular gunsight. We cannot see these in the photo. Then comes the smaller muzzle brake, which 007 did not have.

Tiger 009 was also a steel-wheeled command Tiger, and it had the thinner roof and binocular gunsight. Both tanks apparently arrived in the same batch.

David
 
Good post david,full of useful info but still doesnt make the production model of 007 any clearer,this has been debated for years on many forums without success,we need to match the chassis no with tiger 007 to be absolutely sure and if that was possible then it would have already been done ,cant believe that Westernhagen was never photographed with 007,to save all this carry on .
 
forlornhoper said:
full of useful info but still doesnt make the production model of 007 any clearer
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Perhaps I should have stated the conclusions which I thought obvious.
007 had:
  • Steel wheels
  • Turret protector ring
  • Probably the thin roof
  • Small idlers
  • Probably the binocular gunsight
  • Large muzzle brake
  • No grenade launcher in the roof
  • No crane sockets on the turret roof
  • No rear travel lock

and all other features appropriate to a Command Tiger built in March 1944. The only thing I feel uncertain of is the colour of the numerals.

I'd be glad to hear of any proof to the contrary.

David
 
Byrden said:
Perhaps I should have stated the conclusions which I thought obvious.
007 had:
  • Steel wheels
  • Turret protector ring
  • Probably the thin roof
  • Small idlers
  • Probably the binocular gunsight
  • Large muzzle brake
  • No grenade launcher in the roof
  • No crane sockets on the turret roof
  • No rear travel lock

and all other features appropriate to a Command Tiger built in March 1944. The only thing I feel uncertain of is the colour of the numerals.

I'd be glad to hear of any proof to the contrary.

David
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I don't want to get too deep into this because I don't have the same detailed original data that you must have, but from the discussion, the question of steel wheels has not been resolved and the binocular gunsight is more typical of a mid-production Tiger with rubber wheels. Fmethorst and Tullock have some good original data and are more familiar with chassis numbers than I am. They will probably come back to this thread to discuss the new data that you have. Maybe with your knowledge added we can come to some conclusion.

Terry
 
Phantom Warrior said:
I don't have the same detailed original data that you must have
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I don't have original data; Doyle and Jentz tracked that down. I have their book.

Phantom Warrior said:
from the discussion, the question of steel wheels has not been resolved
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The hull of 007 quite clearly displays features that weren't introduced until after the steel wheels became standard; in one case, a whole 50 tanks later.

Phantom Warrior said:
the binocular gunsight is more typical of a mid-production Tiger with rubber wheels.
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Yes, it is. But the binocular gunsight remained in use for about a month after the steel wheels arrived.

Let me add this; there exists a photo of 009, with binocular gunsight, and it has the steel wheels.

David
 
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