KUR010 Ferdinand #501 (1 Viewer)

[Mastercom10]

Number 501 was one of the most photographed Ferdinand by the russians during the battle of Kursk.
We are lucky to have many wartime photos showing it from all sides, so we can notably compare the real camo scheme and markings with the FL model.
A short historical story : on 13 July 1943, Ferdinand #501 of s.Pz Jg Abt 654 ( commander Oberleutenant Wilde ) became
disabled in a minefield in the area of Ponyri station (so, no more combat action after 13th July !).
As usual, FL model has a very attractive painting and weathering job.
And finally, the muzzle brake of the barrel is not systematically all blackened.
I'm not saying it can't exist but the majority of wartime photos that I have been able to see don't show a blackened muzzle brake.
It's a shame that several brands systematically do this; perhaps an "artistic view" ?.
Just a little remark about the running gear : it seems to me that the space between the wheels is a little small, but that may be due to the way the photos are taken.

 

[Warrior]

Yeah, we sure are lucky.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Hunter Rose]

And finally, the muzzle brake of the barrel is not systematically all blackened.
I'm not saying it can't exist but the majority of wartime photos that I have been able to see don't show a blackened muzzle brake.

Solid black muzzle brakes did exist. There's plenty of photographic evidence of black muzzle brakes on factory fresh KwK 40 and StuK 40 cannons of Stug IIIs and Panzer IV, especially in the late 1942 to late 1943 timeframe. The black muzzle brakes are usually paired with a cannon barrel finished in grey lacquer paint.

 

[FirstLegion]

*Yawn*

 

[Mastercom10]

Solid black muzzle brakes did exist. There's plenty of photographic evidence of black muzzle brakes on factory fresh KwK 40 and StuK 40 cannons of Stug IIIs and Panzer IV, especially in the late 1942 to late 1943 timeframe. The black muzzle brakes are usually paired with a cannon barrel finished in grey lacquer paint.

Compared to the majority of wartime photos that I have seen, I remain convinced that there are more "unblackened" muzzle brakes than "blackened" ones (and the same for the guns without muzzle brakes).
Besides, it would be more accurate to say "darkened" because blackening will only occur if the paint burns and is certainly not due to a layer of soot.
The smoke alone will not blacken the muzzle, especially since smokeless powder was used, as in WWII ( no more black powder ! ).
Dark color on barrels and/or muzzle brakes could be due to the following reasons :
-unpainted replacement parts : german barrels were usually supplied in a heat-resistant dark grey primer.
- winterwash white camo : painted when the canvas muzzle brake was on.
- regular gun maintenance : oil stains from barrel cleaning solvents.
- extreme heat of the propellant gas during firing : blowback sometime burning away the paint.
It should be noted that this dark color is not only black but could be also dirty brown or grey.
In fact, on models, systematically blackening is an artist touch that has been propulgated by modellers for years to add depth to the gun barrel.
And it is obvious that many modellers and collectors prefer "eye catching" effect to historical reality.

 

[Hunter Rose]

Mastercom,

You stated "And finally, the muzzle brake of the barrel is not systematically all blackened."

Your statement is false. It does not matter to me if you believe me or not. I was attempting to educate the forum on a fact that not many people seem to know. I made no claims they were the majority or how widespread black muzzle brakes were.

Please re-read what I wrote below.

"Solid black muzzle brakes did exist. There's plenty of photographic evidence of black muzzle brakes on factory fresh KwK 40 and StuK 40 cannons of Stug IIIs and Panzer IV, especially in the late 1942 to late 1943 timeframe. The black muzzle brakes are usually paired with a cannon barrel finished in grey lacquer paint."

Here's a picture of them on Stugs at the factory:

 

[Mastercom10]

Hunter Rose,

How aggressive your answer is !.
I want only to share information in a simple way of friendly discussions.
But I see that it bothers some people who perhaps consider themselves to be the supreme knowledge for "educate" the forum.
What I stated " and finally the muzzle brakes of barrels are not systematically all blackened" is absolutely not false.
But you, you are talking about tanks in factories whose barrels are still in heat-resistant dark grey primer ( what I say in my previous post )
because they are not yet been painted in basic camouflage color.
Me, on the other hand, I am talking about tanks on the battlefield whose barrels and muzzle brakes are not systematically
blackened by gunfire.
And all this to just highlight the fact that brands wrongly represent , for "artistic" touch, their models with almost always blackened
muzzle brakes ( and also end of barrels).
Me too, it does not matter to me at all if you believe me or not, wartime photos prove it.

 

[Panzer ace]

Mastercom,

You stated "And finally, the muzzle brake of the barrel is not systematically all blackened."

Your statement is false. It does not matter to me if you believe me or not. I was attempting to educate the forum on a fact that not many people seem to know. I made no claims they were the majority or how widespread black muzzle brakes were.

Please re-read what I wrote below.

"Solid black muzzle brakes did exist. There's plenty of photographic evidence of black muzzle brakes on factory fresh KwK 40 and StuK 40 cannons of Stug IIIs and Panzer IV, especially in the late 1942 to late 1943 timeframe. The black muzzle brakes are usually paired with a cannon barrel finished in grey lacquer paint."

Here's a picture of them on Stugs at the factory:

View attachment 349349

Hunter:

As always I appreciate and respect your knowledge.

-Jason

 

[Hunter Rose]

Hunter:

As always I appreciate and respect your knowledge.

-Jason

You are quite welcome sir.

 

[Hunter Rose]

Mastercom,

My reply was not intended to be agressive, merely direct and factual.

The grey barrels and black muzzle brakes in the picture I post are not waiting to be painted. That is how they left the factory and went into combat: black finished muzzle brakes with grey heat resistant lacquer painted cannon barrels.

It feels that we are talking about two different things, so I will leave the discussion.

Cheers.

 

[fmethorst]

I'm not a fan of the trend for manufacturers to release models with full black muzzle brakes. I suspect that in most cases manufacturers are trying to simulate carbon buildup due to muzzle blast. I'm not saying some didn't come from the factory with a black muzzle brake as Hunter Rose alluded to, I just think if the intention is to simulate carbon buildup, it's way overdone. A small amount of carbon is fine.

 

[OzDigger]

Yes, firing does tend to blacken the barrel end, and it's worth noting that some of the barrels pictured have covers on the end to keep out dust etc.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Number 501 was one of the most photographed Ferdinand by the russians during the battle of Kursk.
We are lucky to have many wartime photos showing it from all sides, so we can notably compare the real camo scheme and markings with the FL model.
A short historical story : on 13 July 1943, Ferdinand #501 of s.Pz Jg Abt 654 ( commander Oberleutenant Wilde ) became
disabled in a minefield in the area of Ponyri station (so, no more combat action after 13th July !).
As usual, FL model has a very attractive painting and weathering job.
And finally, the muzzle brake of the barrel is not systematically all blackened.
I'm not saying it can't exist but the majority of wartime photos that I have been able to see don't show a blackened muzzle brake.
It's a shame that several brands systematically do this; perhaps an "artistic view" ?.
Just a little remark about the running gear : it seems to me that the space between the wheels is a little small, but that may be due to the way the photos are taken.

I'm mystified why this even matters? What am I missing here? Please enlighten, as I'd like to understand your reasoning and view point?

Wartime photos only show a tiny glimpse in time.

I don't collect FL due to price, however enjoy viewing their products and really liked their latest Ferdinand.

 

[wayne556517]

Happy to read his research and appreciate the time he has put into it, if only some manufacturers did as well (Not saying FL hasn't just a comment) I really like this beast, and I am trying to work out a way to buy one.

 

[Mastercom10]

Mastercom,

My reply was not intended to be agressive, merely direct and factual.

The grey barrels and black muzzle brakes in the picture I post are not waiting to be painted. That is how they left the factory and went into combat: black finished muzzle brakes with grey heat resistant lacquer painted cannon barrels.

It feels that we are talking about two different things, so I will leave the discussion.

Cheers.

Hunter,

I will also add before ending the discussion that I am agree with you on the fact that some tanks left the factory with the gun /muzzle brake still in heat-resistant dark grey primer,
like the photo you attached ( I 've also attached a photo of an Hetze in 1944).
But I remain convinced , given the numerous wartime photos, that it is not the majority of cases.
And I think, for obvious concealment reasons, that on the battlefield a camo paint would be as soon as possible applied on most tank barrels.
Cheers.

 

[Mastercom10]

I'm mystified why this even matters? What am I missing here? Please enlighten, as I'd like to understand your reasoning and view point?

Wartime photos only show a tiny glimpse in time.

I don't collect FL due to price, however enjoy viewing their products and really liked their latest Ferdinand.

Personally, I find that brands exaggerate the blackening of the barrels and muzzle brakes and it is a shame that this
is done systematically on all models.
It is more of an artistic touch than the reality of things in regard of numerous battlefield wartime photos.

 

[OzDigger]

I suspect the trend of blackening of the barrel end/muzzle brake on prebuilt collectable models follows the trend amongst the plastic modelling community. Personally as a past model builder and painter I find this subject (somewhat) interesting but can understand that others do not.

I think there is to much 'blackening' of the tank muzzles, same with gun muzzles on fighter aircraft models, however I agree it can add to the 'look'. It's well documented that German tank barrels were finished with a heat resistant coating, black and/or dark grey, same with the Muzzle brake that was screwed onto the barrel. However we know that the tank barrel was often subsequently over painted with camouflage colours, white washed etc, this overpainting often included the muzzle brake. We also know that the barrels were often covered temporarily during assembly and subsequently with a custom made cover (usually canvas) in field use. Consequently you see a wide variety of barrel and muzzle brake 'colours' in WW2 photos and films however I note completely black barrel ends in field use are in the minority and 'backening' was certainly not obligatory.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Happy to read his research and appreciate the time he has put into it, if only some manufacturers did as well (Not saying FL hasn't just a comment) I really like this beast, and I am trying to work out a way to buy one.

I'm with you mate, its a great model.

 

[Hunter Rose]

For the history of the Ferdinand, it always gets a bad wrap for poor performance at Kursk. But the reality was a little different. Hilary Louis Dole gave an excellent synopsis.

Basically, he said the Ferdinand’s effectiveness came down to the tactics of which unit employed it . The s.Pz.Jg.Abt 653 was previously an experienced Stug unit, and used the same tactics of using good concealment and firing positions, attacking from ambush as much as possible. Consequently, they were very effective.

On the other hand, he 654th was previously a Panzerjaeger unit, and the Ferdinand was their first experience with armor. The 654th felt the new Ferdinand was impervious, and drove it around the battlefield as such, treating it like an unstoppable tank and generally using poor tactics. They suffered much higher losses and were less effective as a result.

 

[Mastercom10]

For the history of the Ferdinand, it always gets a bad wrap for poor performance at Kursk. But the reality was a little different. Hilary Louis Dole gave an excellent synopsis.

Basically, he said the Ferdinand’s effectiveness came down to the tactics of which unit employed it . The s.Pz.Jg.Abt 653 was previously an experienced Stug unit, and used the same tactics of using good concealment and firing positions, attacking from ambush as much as possible. Consequently, they were very effective.

On the other hand, he 654th was previously a Panzerjaeger unit, and the Ferdinand was their first experience with armor. The 654th felt the new Ferdinand was impervious, and drove it around the battlefield as such, treating it like an unstoppable tank and generally using poor tactics. They suffered much higher losses and were less effective as a result.

Yes, that's actually it :

- s. pz Jg Abt 653 : 13 Ferdinands were written off between 5-27 July 1943 out of a total of 45.

- s. pz Jg Abt 654 : 26 Ferdinands were written off between 5-27 July 1943 out of a total of 44.

And 502 kills for both Abteilung.

(I really like books from H.L. Doyle who is an excellent author about german WWII tanks ).