Leave K&C Alone... (2 Viewers)

[Cicero]

A "what if" collection would be nice...I have always wondered what Benjamin Franklin would look like carrying a thompson submachine gun.

Sure - then why not just put Betsy Ross in a negligee.....I think we need to be a tad more judicious about or "what ifs" haha ^&grin

I love the attached picture tho...

 

[Cicero]

each to their own. Nobody is asking for perfection as its never going to happen. Massive difference in what I and others talk about. Blatantly wrong issues, made up sets and everything else seen wrong colour wrong unit markings wrong location for a release should not happen. It is IMO harder to get these things wrong than it is to get them right.This is the hobby for me, I like most things but, that does not mean that we should accept everything released as great fine if you do but, with a membership of 3,000 its all about different opinions and ways in which we address items. you just seem happy with the set released and not about what it should look like and that's great for you. Others have different expectations and we are all free to voice them and discuss what we like and dislike.
Mitch

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Hello Friends,

While I am a recent member, I have read a great deal of recent posts and the first thing that came to mind was "what the hoo-haa?" It occurs to me, that if one does not like a product, or questions it's authenticity/value, one....shouldn't purchase it. GREAT SCOTT!!! DO WE HAVE RATIONAL THOUGHT!!!!

Rather than spend all our time attacking a fantastic company that revolutionized the modern toy soldier market (a tribute to the company's brilliant ownership) lets spend our time appreciating one another and sharing our fantastic purchases....

Check this beaut out!!! The detail, the drama, the out-right symbolism -glorious...

This piece will add so much to my seasonal scenes, I can't wait to put it out this upcoming December. I really think this is the most underrated collection K&C has produced.

Happy Collecting/Hunting Gentlemen!!!

I agree with you 100% that if something is produced at the retail level, if you don't like it....Don't buy it. Why carry on ranting about the brand and the owner ?K&C makes so many great products but one small detail that some may not personally like gets scrutinized to no end. Given the sheer volume of
new products that gets released, new products month after month the brand is doing one heck of a job ........:salute:: :salute:: :salute::

 

[Phantom Warrior]

View attachment 134219

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

 

[fmethorst]

As noted, to each their own in regards to personal taste and level of tolerance for inaccuracy.

I would like to point out that King & Country boxes have "Authentic Hand-Made History" printed on them. While the term does offer a level of ambiguity, use of the words authentic and history does imply a basis on reality rather than fantasy. Now even with these words there is wiggle room, much like movies will use terms such as "based on true events" and "inspired by true events". That said, I don't think it is unreasonable for customers to have certain expectations for a product marketed with words such as authentic and history.

Much like the Collectors Showcase scale issue it comes down to delivering the product that is advertised for me. If you say 1:30 scale then I should be able to measure it and determine whether it is in my level of tolerance. If you say authentic and history I should be able to go to the historical record and again, determine whether it is in my level of tolerance.

Since this is a forum to discuss toy soldiers it strikes me as the appropriate venue for collectors to discuss the good, bad and ugly of the hobby we all enjoy. Insisting on an artificial one mindedness towards the good is highly oppressive, and while it may make some feel good, leaves many marginalized. The thing I look for in conversation is not "does the other person agree with me? If no, what's wrong with them?" it's "Is the discussion respectful and rational?". We may agree to disagree, and that's fine, or one of us may be given pause for thought, and that's also fine. The point is we're exchanging ideas which is healthy as opposed to pretending to all agree on one accepted idea.

Frank

 

[Panzer ace]

As noted, to each their own in regards to personal taste and level of tolerance for inaccuracy.

I would like to point out that King & Country boxes have "Authentic Hand-Made History" printed on them. While the term does offer a level of ambiguity, use of the words authentic and history does imply a basis on reality rather than fantasy. Now even with these words there is wiggle room, much like movies will use terms such as "based on true events" and "inspired by true events". That said, I don't think it is unreasonable for customers to have certain expectations for a product marketed with words such as authentic and history.

Much like the Collectors Showcase scale issue it comes down to delivering the product that is advertised for me. If you say 1:30 scale then I should be able to measure it and determine whether it is in my level of tolerance. If you say authentic and history I should be able to go to the historical record and again, determine whether it is in my level of tolerance.

Since this is a forum to discuss toy soldiers it strikes me as the appropriate venue for collectors to discuss the good, bad and ugly of the hobby we all enjoy. Insisting on an artificial one mindedness towards the good is highly oppressive, and while it may make some feel good, leaves many marginalized. The thing I look for in conversation is not "does the other person agree with me? If no, what's wrong with them?" it's "Is the discussion respectful and rational?". We may agree to disagree, and that's fine, or one of us may be given pause for thought, and that's also fine. The point is we're exchanging ideas which is healthy as opposed to pretending to all agree on one accepted idea.

Frank

Great post Frank.

I would like to point out that products from in every category of the consumer realm have sayings or slogans on their packaging that leave room for ambiguity. For example, my wife uses a product with the words "Age Correcting Serum" on the bottle. Now, I am not a doctor but I am pretty sure she is the correct age and she does not need her age corrected. Furthermore, she uses this serum as directed and yet she has not turned 18 (if that is what it is meant to do). My point is that slogans, even the ones that use the term 'authentic', lend themselves to ambiguity and purchasing a product based on this information is up to the consumer and their interpretation thereof.

Size, speed weight etc., are quantitative and can be backed up by facts and/or measurements.

Finally, I think most of us on the forum want to have discussions and debates about toy soldiers. Too often though these discussions go beyond that and often dissipate into full blown personal attacks and petty barbs. No one wants a rah rah section for each manufacturer, but no one wants an MMA style forum where a discussion about a tank actually becomes a tank battle with insults serving as the ordinance.

 

[Panzer ace]

So there is a tradeoff between historical accuracy and creativity? I prefer history to be more accurate and less made up. If more creativity is wanted, how about a range of Hitlers' Secret Weapons, or Never Produced Prototypes.

Terry

Terry:

Best avatar I have seen in a long time!

 

[IONA]

A "what if" collection would be nice...I have always wondered what Benjamin Franklin would look like carrying a thompson submachine gun.

I nearly choked on my beer :salute::{bravo}}
This is what is needed SOME FUN BACK IN THE FORUM
Cheers made my crappy day a bit better
Scott

 

[Rob]

Bloody hell.....you step out into the garden to build a wall and come back to this!

First off a warm welcome to the forum Cicero, good to have you aboard the good ship Treefrog.:salute:: With the very greatest respect to you my friend your post though very well meant may be viewed as a little childish if you don't mind me saying so. I get it like this. It matters not if you are a) a flag waver like me or b) a rivet counter or c) plain old anti K&C i ask you honestly, does ANYTHING ANYONE says on this forum make the slightest difference to what you buy or think?? NOT ONE IOTA MY FRIEND NOT ONE IOTA!:smile2: If I say oh this tank is cool I'm getting it, not one person is going to ring their dealer and say 'Rob's getting one put me down for two'! If someone says to me 'Oh the left hand sprocket on the right rear flange manifold was not on there until 3.15pm April 30th 1945, am I still going to get it...of course I am . If we try and stifle all reasonable questions and debate we come across as one of the more lunatic fringe might think in that all discussion is stifled. The other thing is that once you have been around a while it becomes quite easy to see who is raising a reasonable point and who has an agenda. People with agendas will often throw a personal insult at Andy or a collector or a dealer, you will often see people with genuine points just don't do that. Or you will see them try and jibe at other collectors etc. As soon as you get used to this you learn to zone them out as you kind of know what they are going to say before they say it, if that makes sense!

Enjoy what you collect , don't concern yourself with what others think unless it's your wife or Kelly Brook and most of all enjoy this wonderful hobby, at this highly enjoyable forum amongst the many many real people who I am proud to call friends:salute::

Hope you enjoy it here

Rob

 

[Cicero]

Bloody hell.....you step out into the garden to build a wall and come back to this!

First off a warm welcome to the forum Cicero, good to have you aboard the good ship Treefrog.:salute:: With the very greatest respect to you my friend your post though very well meant may be viewed as a little childish if you don't mind me saying so. I get it like this. It matters not if you are a) a flag waver like me or b) a rivet counter or c) plain old anti K&C i ask you honestly, does ANYTHING ANYONE says on this forum make the slightest difference to what you buy or think?? NOT ONE IOTA MY FRIEND NOT ONE IOTA!:smile2: If I say oh this tank is cool I'm getting it, not one person is going to ring their dealer and say 'Rob's getting one put me down for two'! If someone says to me 'Oh the left hand sprocket on the right rear flange manifold was not on there until 3.15pm April 30th 1945, am I still going to get it...of course I am . If we try and stifle all reasonable questions and debate we come across as one of the more lunatic fringe might think in that all discussion is stifled. The other thing is that once you have been around a while it becomes quite easy to see who is raising a reasonable point and who has an agenda. People with agendas will often throw a personal insult at Andy or a collector or a dealer, you will often see people with genuine points just don't do that. Or you will see them try and jibe at other collectors etc. As soon as you get used to this you learn to zone them out as you kind of know what they are going to say before they say it, if that makes sense!

Enjoy what you collect , don't concern yourself with what others think unless it's your wife or Kelly Brook and most of all enjoy this wonderful hobby, at this highly enjoyable forum amongst the many many real people who I am proud to call friends:salute::

Hope you enjoy it here

Rob

Rob,

I have to say I laughed through most of the post because it was humorously true - this is one of the reason's why my friends were asking me to join the forum for the sheer enjoyment and jovial posting that occurs. It's great to share work, and maybe my post was a little too strong, but I really think that general humor and silliness can add to the discussion and turn a "controversial" topic (for whatever reason) and make it lighthearted.

Cheers to you friend!:salute::

 

[Blowtorch]

A select few members constantly berating certain aspects of the hobby make it more difficult for members to post their opinions on the forum or show off their collection for fear of reprisal. Let us end the toy soldier terrorism!!!

I only read K&C, CS, Figarti, TG, & FL regularly here & have no idea what you are talking about. Either I have missed something or you are very sensitive.

 

[Mitch]

best post by far for years
Mitch

As noted, to each their own in regards to personal taste and level of tolerance for inaccuracy.

I would like to point out that King & Country boxes have "Authentic Hand-Made History" printed on them. While the term does offer a level of ambiguity, use of the words authentic and history does imply a basis on reality rather than fantasy. Now even with these words there is wiggle room, much like movies will use terms such as "based on true events" and "inspired by true events". That said, I don't think it is unreasonable for customers to have certain expectations for a product marketed with words such as authentic and history.

Much like the Collectors Showcase scale issue it comes down to delivering the product that is advertised for me. If you say 1:30 scale then I should be able to measure it and determine whether it is in my level of tolerance. If you say authentic and history I should be able to go to the historical record and again, determine whether it is in my level of tolerance.

Since this is a forum to discuss toy soldiers it strikes me as the appropriate venue for collectors to discuss the good, bad and ugly of the hobby we all enjoy. Insisting on an artificial one mindedness towards the good is highly oppressive, and while it may make some feel good, leaves many marginalized. The thing I look for in conversation is not "does the other person agree with me? If no, what's wrong with them?" it's "Is the discussion respectful and rational?". We may agree to disagree, and that's fine, or one of us may be given pause for thought, and that's also fine. The point is we're exchanging ideas which is healthy as opposed to pretending to all agree on one accepted idea.

Frank

 

[jbonzo1]

I must admit, I have to agree with Peter on this. A select few members constantly berating certain aspects of the hobby make it more difficult for members to post their opinions on the forum or show off their collection for fear of reprisal. Let us end the toy soldier terrorism!!!

Wow.

 

[Desertkiwi]

When people are repeatedly told how 'wrong' something is they can get the impression that are being told that they are 'fools' for purchasing something they enjoy.

!00% spot on Peter, thank you for posting what lies at the heart of the issue:salute::

 

[bridport]

Can you all please calm down!!! Toy soldiers are NOT life. They are rather interesting and expensive PLAYTHINGS for us history buffs. However, if they are central to your existence, then I fear it is time to seek help... But do not seek it on this forum....

Now, I'd like to see some Fallschirmjager in September, either Carentan of Ardennes, - both would be welcome....

 

[Poppo]

Poppo,

When I saw the name Cicero I was thinking about the famous Roman / Italian and that it might indicate an interest in Roman times.

That is Cicero the Roman philosopher, politician, lawyer, orator, political theorist, consul and constitutionalist.

I learnt all about him at my school in England as he was particularly important in Ceasars time and ended up getting murdered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero

A para from Wiki

While Cicero the humanist deeply influenced the culture of the Renaissance, Cicero the republican inspired the Founding Fathers of the United States and the revolutionaries of the French Revolution.[71] John Adams said of him "As all the ages of the world have not produced a greater statesman and philosopher united than Cicero, his authority should have great weight."[72] Jefferson names Cicero as one of a handful of major figures who contributed to a tradition “of public right” that informed his draft of the Declaration of Independence and shaped American understandings of "the common sense" basis for the right of revolution.[73] Camille Desmoulins said of the French republicans in 1789 that they were "mostly young people who, nourished by the reading of Cicero at school, had become passionate enthusiasts for liberty".[74] Jim Powell starts his book on the history of liberty with the sentence: "Marcus Tullius Cicero expressed principles that became the bedrock of liberty in the modern world." Legitimate government protects liberty and justice according to "natural law." "Murray N. Rothbard praised Cicero as 'the great transmitter of Stoic ideas from Greece to Rome. ... Stoic natural law doctrines ... helped shape the great structures of Roman law which became pervasive in Western Civilization." Government's purpose was the protection of private property.[75]

Perhaps he is not as well known as I thought.

Regards
Brett

Thank you, as an italian I know who "Cicerone" was......But for me the short term " Cicero" reminds me the best german spy of ww2....

 

[Panzer ace]

Thank you, as an italian I know who "Cicerone" was......But for me the short term " Cicero" reminds me the best german spy of ww2....

I watch way too many movies. Cicero will always remind me of Maximus' servant in Gladitor (played by Tommy Flanagan) who had this great exchange with Russel Crow:

Maximus: You don't find it hard to do your duty?

Cicero: Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to.

 

[Jack]

When something is 'inaccurate' or even 'made up' people have a right to point out that fact. They also have a right to not purchase those products.

Blanket statements like 'K&C makes inaccurate and blatantly wrong figures' are not helpful. It beats the drum over old issues and glosses over the fact that K&C does a significant amount of research on their products and it shows!

People are free to 'accept' whatever they wish. It is not the job of a few to dictate what others can like.

The issue is not so much the criticisms but the sheer reptitiveness of some of them. I could get into a thread on American football and write 'why all the stoppages' which to someone who watches Aussie Rules which has three rules and no one understands two of them is a logical enough question. Its when over breakfast I make the same criticism on a thread, repeated at lunch and then once more at dinner. Then when someone says if you do not like American football stay out of the thread, I reply that man is endowed by his Creator with certain inalienable rights and I am merely exercising one of them. Then I start a thread 'Is this the end of American football' , or in a discussion of ice hockey I add 'At least its better than American football lol'. I firmly believe that people use 'errors' to highlight the depth of their perceived knowledge. I remember a line from 'Frasier' when he comes home and tells Daphne "I went to the most magnificent restaurant ... just one little problem'. She replies 'Oh good ... just the way you like it'. For some the errors are just the way they like it.

 

[jazzeum]

Australian rules "football" has rules? I thought the only rule was to bash one another. That's why I figured Howard is the way he is {eek3}

I guess I better run the other way when I see him in the Windy City :wink2:

 

[uksubs]

As noted, to each their own in regards to personal taste and level of tolerance for inaccuracy.

I would like to point out that King & Country boxes have "Authentic Hand-Made History" printed on them. While the term does offer a level of ambiguity, use of the words authentic and history does imply a basis on reality rather than fantasy. Now even with these words there is wiggle room, much like movies will use terms such as "based on true events" and "inspired by true events". That said, I don't think it is unreasonable for customers to have certain expectations for a product marketed with words such as authentic and history.

Much like the Collectors Showcase scale issue it comes down to delivering the product that is advertised for me. If you say 1:30 scale then I should be able to measure it and determine whether it is in my level of tolerance. If you say authentic and history I should be able to go to the historical record and again, determine whether it is in my level of tolerance.

Since this is a forum to discuss toy soldiers it strikes me as the appropriate venue for collectors to discuss the good, bad and ugly of the hobby we all enjoy. Insisting on an artificial one mindedness towards the good is highly oppressive, and while it may make some feel good, leaves many marginalized. The thing I look for in conversation is not "does the other person agree with me? If no, what's wrong with them?" it's "Is the discussion respectful and rational?". We may agree to disagree, and that's fine, or one of us may be given pause for thought, and that's also fine. The point is we're exchanging ideas which is healthy as opposed to pretending to all agree on one accepted idea.

Frank

I'm away on holiday but what a spot on post , best close the thread now