London (1 Viewer)

gus macrae said:
Its the police's fault, well thats what the pundits always say, they either do too much or not enough, and whatever they do its wrong anyway. Thank God I retired two years ago, so its no longer my fault Having previously been in the same situation as the cops in London have been in over the past few nights, I think a lot of them will be feeling FEAR and FRUSTRATION. Fear that they might get injured and frustration that they probably wont get the order to get in among the rioters. The hierarchy in most Police Forces in Britian are now so frightened of the PC lobby, that it will take a very brave chief constable to shout CHARGE!!
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I don't and never would blame the Police for this. Its not the Police who are setting fire to buildings , looting etc. I have nothing but admiration for those men and women in blue putting themselves in danger night after night up against these morons, god speed and keep safe every one of them.


Rob
 
That Charge may come from all the army lads dressed a police on the streets tonight!!!!!! or, the many hundereds from different forces who won't really care what happens as its not their force area!!!!! Get it sorted out and support the police.
Mitch

gus macrae said:
Its the police's fault, well thats what the pundits always say, they either do too much or not enough, and whatever they do its wrong anyway. Thank God I retired two years ago, so its no longer my fault Having previously been in the same situation as the cops in London have been in over the past few nights, I think a lot of them will be feeling FEAR and FRUSTRATION. Fear that they might get injured and frustration that they probably wont get the order to get in among the rioters. The hierarchy in most Police Forces in Britian are now so frightened of the PC lobby, that it will take a very brave chief constable to shout CHARGE!!
Click to expand...
 
I believe in a number of European countries during riotous situations, the police have a BATON ORDER, or something similar. When it is given, the police charge the rioters and basically beat the living daylights out of as many roiters as they can get their hands on, or batons too. After the remaining rioters disperse the police then just pick up the pieces of the one's left behind and arrest them. This is an order that many British football fans have found out about to their cost. There may be a similar type of instruction or order available to the forces on mainland Britain, but no High ranking police officer or politician in this country will have the bravery to give that order, because then you would have an army of "peaceful protesters" paraded on TV along with their publicists and lawyers, political figures and media personalities (ala Livingston and Howe) screaming police brutality. Unfortunately that will probably happen anyway.
 
I'm all for the water cannon/baton charge method right now. Things have gone too far and these people can't be allowed to destroy innocent lives. So let them have it, because I guess this isn't the time for niceties...
Oh yeah, and I guess Brad has a point, history does repeat itself, enough trouble might bring another law, order and progress hero to save and command us all, beyond our basic freedoms...
As these things are happening everywhere and looking worse (France etc. and don't all Western large suburban areas look predictably the same...) , economic crisis or no economic crisis but certainly a much deeper and far more serious values crisis, maybe the Western civilization is past its prime, possibly since the 50's or 60's, and decaying (just like the Roman society once did till the Empire was gone...). Another 80 or 100 years and it'll be possibly gone. Maybe my son will be unfortunate enough to still be around...{eek3}.


Paulo
 
If memory serves, after George Harrison's would-be assassin was arrested, the guy's mother had the gall to blame "the system." I don't pretend to know current British politics, but I do know that good people do not deserve to have THEIR lives overturned by mob rule, the members of whom conveniently blame "the system." :mad::mad:
 
Interesting article "Riot Control Tactics and Crowd Management Techniques"

http://staffpatrol.wordpress.com/2007/06/11/riot-control-tactics-and-crowd-management-techniques/

If government is too pc and can not protect people from the riot mob, people should take this matter in their own hands...in the US where a lot of business owners carry the guns, riots could face a "different challenge" as it happens many times before ... a situation in New Orleans after Katrina is a good example...
 
Mostly quiet in London last night but serious rioting in Manchester and some in Birmingham . It appears 16,000 Police on duty in London may have paid off. On a much happier and uplifting note, it's great to see communities in London, Liverpool and Birmingham coming out onto the streets armed with brooms and shovels and clearing up the mess, shows real spirit and a defiance of the idiots involved in mass destruction.

The Police are also making hundreds of arrests, many of those who have been traced through social networking sites and security cameras and who no doubt thought they'd got clean away with it.....until that early morning bang on the door,Ha ha ha !

Rob

Rob
 
Mostly quiet in London last night but serious rioting in Manchester and some in Birmingham . It appears 16,000 Police on duty in London may have paid off. On a much happier and uplifting note, it's great to see communities in London, Liverpool and Birmingham coming out onto the streets armed with brooms and shovels and clearing up the mess, shows real spirit and a defiance of the idiots involved in mass destruction.

The Police are also making hundreds of arrests, many of those who have been traced through social networking sites and security cameras and who no doubt thought they'd got clean away with it.....until that early morning bang on the door,Ha ha ha ! ^&grin^&grin{bravo}}^&cool

Rob
 
As an ex Royal Hong Police Officer I have great support and sympathy for the Police in the UK at the moment.

What I find particularly interersting is the response and use of varying degrees of force by the Police to prevent such activities. This article is interesting http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-police-debate-tactics

I was the commmander of a full time riot platoon (Police Tactical Unit) for 8 months, 3 months of which was full time training. A
platoon consisted of 4 sections : Arrest with shields & batons (8), Smoke (tear gas) (8), Wooden baton shells (8) and
Shotgun section (6 with Shotguns and 2 with AR 15's - shotguns to be aimed at legs),. + 9 in the Platoon HQ with an Orderley with an AR15. 4 platoons to a Company and 6 such Companies available and based at the Riot Training School and in Police Regions.

Each Police District also had it's own company it could form if more were needed (from men recently in the full
time Company). For example Hong Kong Island could deploy 5 from it's own resouces plus its resident full time Company.

The use of force was basically escalated as needed and all documented by recorder and camera. I have always
been amazed at images of riots in the UK where petrol bombs have been used against the police. Our training
was emphatic that if a person was about to throw a petrol bomb at the police then the accepted response was
to instruct one of the three AR15 guys (always the best shots) to shoot him. One the target was clearly identified
by the Commander the AR15 officer knew it meant shoot to kill. That was 30 years ago. Probably by now the
order would be to invite him back to the station for a cup of tea.

I remember when I was under PTU training the Brixton riots were going on. We were in the Officers Mess seriously
discussing (or fantasising ?) about being deployed to the UK as the UK forces at that time had very little training or equipment.

The RHKP became "Royal" after it's very successful performance during serious riots in 1967. When I was there it
was considered more of a para-military type police force and there was extensive planning for various events.
The most significant riots involved detainees in Vietnamese camps and some were very serious. One PTU Company
acheived notoriety in the press, after a major riot in a camp, by making a T Shirt with the words Whackety Whack Don't Come
Back with appropriate image. I can't recall wooden baton shells ever having to be used.

One of the most well known incidents took place in 1989. There were legitimate protests in Hong Kong due to the
Tiananman Square incident in China. Some elements decided to take advantage and the PTU was deployed.
In one main shopping area (Nathan Road) some guys decided they were going to loot some shops. A good friend
was in charge of the local CID and took his guys into the armoury and issued them with long batons. He then led
them in a baton charge and did some serious whacking of the looters. Not in any manual I ever saw but very effective.
Hard to imagine a police officer attempting such a thing any more as too much PC and lack of support.

If you click on the Telegraph link earlier it was an article where the Home Secretary was saying it was innappropriate to use water cannon and anyway there are none in the UK as they are in N Ireland ! She was talking about policing by "consent". Is it any wonder with a leader like that that the situation has got out of control so quickly.

I googled London riots and there have been 10 in the past 20 years so I would guess the Met should be the most
experienced and most prepared Police in the world at handling such matters.

Anyway apologies for going on. Would be interested to hear from any other police or ex police and some of the
legal guys about what sort of force should or could be used against for example guys breaking into a bank or shop
and looting etc.

Anybody know what riot equipment a Met riot unit would have ?. I don't recall seeing tear gas being used so far.

Regards
Brett
 
Just heard on the radio that British PM going to give go ahead for Police to use wooden shells. Well it has been 4
days now.

Apparently Commissioner of Met has to authorise it before police can use them. As a mere Inspector I had these
available and could use these or an AR15 as long as I could justify it. No wonder the UK Police has lost control.
 
The problem is the tendency to lean away from the idea of a police "force" to the notion of a police "service". The PC, Health and Safety, and Human Rights brigade have tied their hands to such an extent that they are unable to do the job properly. The political parties are all running around trying to score off each other with accusations of mis-management, every jobsworth with an agenda is interfering, the looters are all screaming "racism" and "police brutality" if they are even shouted at by the officers and the victims are in danger of being sued if they raise a finger to defend themselves. We need to stop having Public Enquiries over every time a policeman is involved in a violent action and let them do their job properly. If necessary declare Martial Law, read the Riot Act and bring the Army in. At the very least it might be useful in getting our lads out of Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq. Trooper
 
The balancing act between service and force is important as many of the calls the police get are derived from a need to facilitate a service and not enforce laws. This debate has raged within the police and academics for many years. The pivotal issue in this country is policing by consent and, the fact now that when public disorder affects whole cities then the police seem to have the consent of the majority to come down hard on the groups who are causing this at the moment.

The catalyst was the death of the black chap I note the early comments from the IPCC which, I don't really like as an organisation (David Wadham was a member of a group notoriuos for actions against the police in the seventies)saying it looks like the police had no legal right to open fire have as usual instigated the local communities who hole no respect for the police or authority to cause disorder. Thats the reason we see London Burning and, then all the other half heads copy around the country.

I think instead of issuing officers to fire plastic rounds which, the Met has in its arsenal the use of the armoured cars so well used in Northern Ireland should become an regular use. I would rather see water cannon used as its far more all encompassing than single rounds fired at a crowd. I note brett mentions the HKP well, its very different policing the capital than the colonies and, one only has to watch the Hong Kong Beat (an old documentary series I have on policing HK) to see the issues and, the way we policed HK

Its now up to the courts to give the maximum sentences for these offences than a slap on the wrists. I have always said similarly, that the first numpty carrying a knife etc that say got 15 years knife crime would drop within days.
Thankfully no decent people were killed or seriously injured
Mitch
 
Mitch said:
The balancing act between service and force is important as many of the calls the police get are derived from a need to facilitate a service and not enforce laws. This debate has raged within the police and academics for many years. The pivotal issue in this country is policing by consent and, the fact now that when public disorder affects whole cities then the police seem to have the consent of the majority to come down hard on the groups who are causing this at the moment.

The catalyst was the death of the black chap I note the early comments from the IPCC which, I don't really like as an organisation (David Wadham was a member of a group notoriuos for actions against the police in the seventies)saying it looks like the police had no legal right to open fire have as usual instigated the local communities who hole no respect for the police or authority to cause disorder. Thats the reason we see London Burning and, then all the other half heads copy around the country.

I think instead of issuing officers to fire plastic rounds which, the Met has in its arsenal the use of the armoured cars so well used in Northern Ireland should become an regular use. I would rather see water cannon used as its far more all encompassing than single rounds fired at a crowd. I note brett mentions the HKP well, its very different policing the capital than the colonies and, one only has to watch the Hong Kong Beat (an old documentary series I have on policing HK) to see the issues and, the way we policed HK

Its now up to the courts to give the maximum sentences for these offences than a slap on the wrists. I have always said similarly, that the first numpty carrying a knife etc that say got 15 years knife crime would drop within days.
Thankfully no decent people were killed or seriously injured
Mitch
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Now Rob he was innocently sitting in a vehicle with a illegal firearm. Minding his own business I am sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm
 
damian said:
Now Rob he was innocently sitting in a vehicle with a illegal firearm. Minding his own business I am sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm
Click to expand...

I bet he was!:wink2:

Just watched a great report on the BBC. It focussed on the work of prosecutors who've been working through the night (and tonight) to prosecute these morons. The reporter said how he'd seen a stream of regretful and sorrowful accused pass through. One guy , a Primary School worker (!) was charged with burglary, pleaded guilty and could expect six months inside from the Magistrates court . However , the prosecutor said the riot was such a factor in the crime that it made it much more serious so despite pleading guilty he was sent to Crown court for sentencing....where he can expect a much longer sentence!

Not so much fun now is it, enjoy your Holiday at Queen Liz's ' Hotel' !^&grin{bravo}}

Rob
 
Mitch,
Good point on the vehicle. I had never heard of the Jankel armoured vehicle before so did some googling.
This page had a good summary and image/role of the Jankel.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-use-plastic-bullets-lid-Londons-looters.html

and the company has a web page.

Looks like a great piece of kit. However I suspect there is not enough of them particularly outside London (I think Met may only have 13 but not 100% sure). There is no water cannon in UK mainland (although might be on the way now).

We had Saracens when I was trained but they were more for show than anything and very slow. Replaced by Saxon and now Benz Unimog APC. Platoon had Landrover and 2 trucks and later vans. Wikipedia has great info and images of PTU and HKP vehicles.

I showed my age by mentioning wooden shells as that link also shows the bullets now are plastic. When firing wooden shells it would have been 8 at a time at the legs of the crowd. Depending upon how close they were it might break legs. The idea is to intimidate the rioters and get them to run away if the gas has not done that. Those injured can be arrested.

Regarding your comment "its very different policing the capital than the colonies". Hong Kong is
mainly an urban environment and any riot was most likely to take place in very similar type streets to those in London (ie. many shops, banks, high buildings etc). A major difference is that in HK the population density would be far greater than anywhere in London/UK. The Division I worked most in was Mong Kok which is in the Guiness Book of Records for highest population density in the world (I enjoyed working there as never bored). However a very significant point and advantage compared to London is that there were no ethnic problems (apart from say when two different navy's were in town and might clash {sm4}). Another factor is that if people had been drinking they would very rarely have a go at a police officer. Any riot or crowd control problem was usually because bad elements were taking advantage of the situation. All officers carry guns which is a deterrent in itself.

The HK Police were totally independent of any UK control. Officers joining from UK would have to go through training just like everybody else. My intake had 10 ex UK cops including one who was an ex Sgt Instructor from a Scottish Police Academy.

You mentioned HK Beat which I have not seen since when it was made (about 1978). It was banned in HK and the videos were highly sought after !!! As you might expect a few guys got into trouble over things shown in the series. One episode featured a European Inspector using a chemical mace on a person and he got into a lot of trouble. One of the best bits I can remember was the Chinese Detective Inspector interviewing a robber. He did not assault him but stroked his chin and his manner was quite intimidating. That Detective went on to become one of the most well known for his success. However you might be interested to know he committed suicide with his revolver several years later as he had stolen a lot of money from case exhibits to cover his gambling debts. Some episodes of Cops were made in late 1990's but have not seen them. There was a terrible UK TV series made in the 1980's called Yellowthread Street and not seen that since then.

Anyway it seems the public are rallying round and helping clean up and and arrests of rioters being made. I don't think the rioters realise how many cameras are around in the UK. Hopefully the police get on top of it and all quietens down.

Regards
Brett
 
From The Guardian paper

"David Cameron has pledged that a "fightback is under way" against the rioters and announced that plans are now in place for water cannon to be available to police at 24 hours' notice".

Slight problem with that brilliant idea. 24 HOURS NOTICE !!!

So either Police have to know 24 hours in advance where to put it or tell the rioters to stay in same place for 24
hours or have them come back.

A classic.

A letter to the Editor in my local paper today was from a guy who had lived in N Ireland. He said he had
seen plastic bullets being used very well in getting a mob to disperse.

Total lack of guts by the leadership (political and police) on this matter. Seem more concerned about the fact
plastic bullets have never been used before in UK than the actual chaos going on.

IMHO.

Regards
Brett
 
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