Lynchings in the US in 19th & 20th centurys (2 Viewers)

[wadepat]

Gentle Friends,

It is time to sit back, take a deep breath, and allow your blood pressure to return to normal. The intensity of this discussion has been growing and the conversation needs to remain calm, civil, and respectful. Otherwise, some moderator intervention may be required. Your help in keeping this forum peaceful is greatly appreciated.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[mikemiller1955]

Gentle Friends,

It is time to sit back, take a deep breath, and allow your blood pressure to return to normal. The intensity of this discussion has been growing and the conversation needs to remain calm, civil, and respectful. Otherwise, some moderator intervention may be required. Your help in keeping this forum peaceful is greatly appreciated.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

Thanks for the warning Pat...I'm through...

ps...glad to have you as a moderator now...

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

Gentle Friends,

It is time to sit back, take a deep breath, and allow your blood pressure to return to normal. The intensity of this discussion has been growing and the conversation needs to remain calm, civil, and respectful. Otherwise, some moderator intervention may be required. Your help in keeping this forum peaceful is greatly appreciated.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

Why Pat you have a very gentle and firm way about you. You say what you have to say calmly and clearly and make your point without standing on any toes. Very big well done here mate. Is your last name WADE by any chance. You remind me of my father and the way he talked. Simmo.

 

[Rutledge]

Lets be clear. There is just as much -if not more - racism in the northern states as in the south. This is something I have experienced in person.

I was raised and grew up in the south but have LIVED, as an adult, in three different northern states. Living somewhere is ALOT different than passing through or visiting.

There was plenty of racial bias in the northern states. It might have been expressed differently, or mainfested itself more subtley, but it was clearly there. No doubt about it. It amuses me up when someone from the north gets on their high horse about their racial benevolence.

The city where I live, Atlanta, the unofficial capital of the south, is known in some circles as the "black mecca". How can that be?

Also, for those who really know their history, much of the great wealth of Boston was built on the importation of slaves from Africa.

Blacks are much more integrated into society in the south. Up north you will find most places are still very much racially segregated - by choice. From my experience LIVING in the north, people are quick to criticize the south for its so-called backwardness. Meanwhile they remain blind to their own biases which are an inherent part of their society.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Gentle Friends,

It is time to sit back, take a deep breath, and allow your blood pressure to return to normal. The intensity of this discussion has been growing and the conversation needs to remain calm, civil, and respectful. Otherwise, some moderator intervention may be required. Your help in keeping this forum peaceful is greatly appreciated.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

I don't know Pat but I fail to see any breach of civility or respect? In fact, the temperature seems pretty tepid to me. All involved are being polite and actually providing support for their views. How much better can a discussion of history be?

 

[Jay]

Okay, to revisit this. I was at no point denigrating the current South. You have clearly misunderstood. My point was that there is no difference now between the North and South in racial attitudes, both good and bad. (btw, I live in the Plains in a town you'd never have heard of) but I'm been in every state in the Union, went to school in Boston and served in California, and about 15 other countries) My 'amazement" if you will, would be no different if I were to travel to Eastern Germany now and not see Soviet tanks, for example. One can be amazed in a good way. Maybe amazed was not the best choice of words. Pleased? Reflective? Not sure what would have been a better choice. There probably is one
Yes, I was pleased to see the integration and acceptance there.
Yeah there are segregated communities all over the US, including the South. 9th Ward comes to mind. And like most large and small cities in the US there are black neighborhoods and white neighborhood. There was, and may still be overt Racism in the North, but Jim Crow laws existed in the South, Texas being part of it The North had issues, and still does, and so does the US. An awful lot of people have no use for our current president ONLY because he is black. You may not hear that in your circle, but you know that it is true.
But generally the South has come a very long way. That doesn't mean they grew up or were the little child. But an awful lot of the change there was not voluntary. It actually took Federal troops to force integration.
I'm not sure why you think I'm criticizing the current South, I'm doing anything but. Nor am I being patronizing. My point was and is, the South has come a very long way in 40 some years. You know that is true. And that is good.

 

[Combat]

............................................................................................................

My point about smoking was to be tolerant of others rights as long as they are done in a responsible manor.

America has things in it's past that were certainly horrible, as does every nation. We cannot change the past, we can only control the present.

I sort of agree with your principle, but that is one terrible example since smoking actually has a harmful effect not only on the people who choose to smoke but anyone who is around them. In addition, think of the monetary cost to society from the health impact of smoking. That's billions of dollars in insurance money that non-smokers have to pay to provide health care to people who choose to smoke.

 

[Peter Reuss]

The lovely posts about France have been moved to this thread:

https://forum.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24453

 

[tdubel]

Okay, to revisit this. I was at no point denigrating the current South. You have clearly misunderstood. My point was that there is no difference now between the North and South in racial attitudes, both good and bad. (btw, I live in the Plains in a town you'd never have heard of) but I'm been in every state in the Union, went to school in Boston and served in California, and about 15 other countries) My 'amazement" if you will, would be no different if I were to travel to Eastern Germany now and not see Soviet tanks, for example. One can be amazed in a good way. Maybe amazed was not the best choice of words. Pleased? Reflective? Not sure what would have been a better choice. There probably is one
Yes, I was pleased to see the integration and acceptance there.
Yeah there are segregated communities all over the US, including the South. 9th Ward comes to mind. And like most large and small cities in the US there are black neighborhoods and white neighborhood. There was, and may still be overt Racism in the North, but Jim Crow laws existed in the South, Texas being part of it The North had issues, and still does, and so does the US. An awful lot of people have no use for our current president ONLY because he is black. You may not hear that in your circle, but you know that it is true.
But generally the South has come a very long way. That doesn't mean they grew up or were the little child. But an awful lot of the change there was not voluntary. It actually took Federal troops to force integration.
I'm not sure why you think I'm criticizing the current South, I'm doing anything but. Nor am I being patronizing. My point was and is, the South has come a very long way in 40 some years. You know that is true. And that is good.

I think a better point to make is the Country has come a long way. I am not sure if it is the tone of your posts or what, but and I say this in sincerity, they come across as a knock to the South. I consider myself a Southerner and to this day we continue to fight this misperception. Not all of our Daddy's owned slaves and didn't want to integrate the schools, the voices of certain areas were louder than the silent majority.

TD

 

[Jay]

I think a better point to make is the Country has come a long way. I am not sure if it is the tone of your posts or what, but and I say this in sincerity, they come across as a knock to the South. I consider myself a Southerner and to this day we continue to fight this misperception. Not all of our Daddy's owned slaves and didn't want to integrate the schools, the voices of certain areas were louder than the silent majority.

TD

Wow, yours is tough to respond to. Once again,, my point was never to knock the South, simply an academic observation of how much things have changed. And yes, even Maryland had issues with integration. And,your point about not everyone's grandfather owning slaves is certainly valid, or for that matter not everyone being in favor of segragation.
But, and as much as your closing quote is certainly historic, and given a forum dealing with military, certainly one that many units would like to emulate, given the topic , he might not be the best choice to quote during this discussion.

 

[tdubel]

Wow, yours is tough to respond to. Once again,, my point was never to knock the South, simply an academic observation of how much things have changed. And yes, even Maryland had issues with integration. And,your point about not everyone's grandfather owning slaves is certainly valid, or for that matter not everyone being in favor of segragation.
But, and as much as your closing quote is certainly historic, and given a forum dealing with military, certainly one that many units would like to emulate, given the topic , he might not be the best choice to quote during this discussion.

Jay,
I notice you chose to point out the Forrest quote. This is another misperception, you (and I am not mocking here, this is general) need to really research the General. Yes he owned slaves, Yes he was a founder of the original KKK. NO, he was not in favor of lynching slaves, burning crosses, and all that other poppycock the idiots in the white sheets tend to spew. The original KKK was a group formed by Southerners who opposed Northern reconstruction in a non violent manner. When it turned to violence and the beginning of spewing racial hatred, Forrest disowned the Klan and ran as far away from it as he could. He was a true Southern patriot who believed in States rights and wanting to be left to govern alone. Did you know that some of his former slaves fought along side him in the War, not as slaves but as free men, they chose to fight with him. Again, there is a lot more to Bedford than what the bs propaganda history books say. Contrary to maligned opinion, he was not the Evil Emperor. I attribute a lot of that garbage to Sherman's quote That Devil Forrest.....

Back to the thread, I understand what you are saying, but wanted to point out when you group "The South" in this manner, this is why you get that reaction. Modern Southerners who have Southern roots (not the transplants from other parts of the Country) are generally tired of apologizing for something of long ago that had nothing to do with their ancestors. Hence, this is why this reaction occurs.

Actually it is a fascinating phenomenon and is not limited to this board. It is quite interesting the way folks from different parts of the Country interact.

TD

 

[mikemiller1955]

Jay...

Tom is so right about this...

I hate being grouped in any part of the geographical USA that people think lacks in progress or is still catching up...

I hate when people perceive the South as being slow or behind the times...

I have heard political jokes and racial jokes all my life about the South...

I live in the South...I'm a 3rd generation American...I'm proud of where I live...but my grandparents could have picked a Northern state as easily as they picked a Southern...

we never owned any slaves...the first Millers to America were dirt poor...

my daddy used to joke...

"The Millers were so poor...whenever someone sold a slave at the market...they would throw in a Miller for free"...

the image most people have of the South...does not apply to all the Southerners...

 

[Jay]

Jay,
I notice you chose to point out the Forrest quote. This is another misperception, you (and I am not mocking here, this is general) need to really research the General. Yes he owned slaves, Yes he was a founder of the original KKK. NO, he was not in favor of lynching slaves, burning crosses, and all that other poppycock the idiots in the white sheets tend to spew. The original KKK was a group formed by Southerners who opposed Northern reconstruction in a non violent manner. When it turned to violence and the beginning of spewing racial hatred, Forrest disowned the Klan and ran as far away from it as he could. He was a true Southern patriot who believed in States rights and wanting to be left to govern alone. Did you know that some of his former slaves fought along side him in the War, not as slaves but as free men, they chose to fight with him. Again, there is a lot more to Bedford than what the bs propaganda history books say. Contrary to maligned opinion, he was not the Evil Emperor. I attribute a lot of that garbage to Sherman's quote That Devil Forrest.....

Back to the thread, I understand what you are saying, but wanted to point out when you group "The South" in this manner, this is why you get that reaction. Modern Southerners who have Southern roots (not the transplants from other parts of the Country) are generally tired of apologizing for something of long ago that had nothing to do with their ancestors. Hence, this is why this reaction occurs.

Actually it is a fascinating phenomenon and is not limited to this board. It is quite interesting the way folks from different parts of the Country interact.

TD

We'll leave the discussion of Forrest for another time. I don't think at any point I was looking for an apology from "Southerners". Aside from discussing lynchings, whihc were not centuries ago, (which was part of my point) I merely commented on my observation that things were different now in "the South' than they were when I was a boy. I thought that was a good thing, but, generally it was a neutral comment, again, like going back to the old town where you grew up and seeing that they had a Caseys and a Wal-Mart where the apple orchards and Pumps on 14 used to be. Things change.
There was no political opinion or statement behind my comment, just that this was something that couldn't have happened 40 or 50 years ago, ie, whites and blacks eating together like they always had been, and should have been. That's all - no agenda.
That said, I feel that I've 'appologized' or explained my statement enough. Interpret as you will.

 

[Njja]

I sort of agree with your principle, but that is one terrible example since smoking actually has a harmful effect not only on the people who choose to smoke but anyone who is around them. In addition, think of the monetary cost to society from the health impact of smoking. That's billions of dollars in insurance money that non-smokers have to pay to provide health care to people who choose to smoke.

................................................................................................................

A very interesting point about the healthcare costs. Many states chose to accept a yearly payment from the tobacco companies for the "money" the state payed for health care for indigent people. I never saw proof of the money spent, or proof tobacco was the sole cause of the illnesses.

I also never received my share of the recovered money....since my tax dollars went to pay these alleged bills!

Again I am not a smoker, but I believe in a free nation, a man should have the right to chose to have a drink, or a smoke if he likes.

My concern is when "they" may decide I should not have a weapon to defend my family should the need arise.

To many good men died for our freedoms to allow them to be slowly striped away!

 

[Spitfrnd]

The lovely posts about France have been moved to this thread:

https://forum.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24453

I always liked France; except perhaps for Napoleon.

 

[tdubel]

We'll leave the discussion of Forrest for another time. I don't think at any point I was looking for an apology from "Southerners". Aside from discussing lynchings, whihc were not centuries ago, (which was part of my point) I merely commented on my observation that things were different now in "the South' than they were when I was a boy. I thought that was a good thing, but, generally it was a neutral comment, again, like going back to the old town where you grew up and seeing that they had a Caseys and a Wal-Mart where the apple orchards and Pumps on 14 used to be. Things change.
There was no political opinion or statement behind my comment, just that this was something that couldn't have happened 40 or 50 years ago, ie, whites and blacks eating together like they always had been, and should have been. That's all - no agenda.
That said, I feel that I've 'appologized' or explained my statement enough. Interpret as you will.

Happy to discuss Forrest at any time, he's one of the most misinterpreted citizens of history. I understood your point and didn't necessarily disagree, I just was pointing out why you would and did get the reaction you got from folks of the Southern persuasion regarding your presentation. No need to apologize for your point or necessarily presentation in the least. I wanted to merely point out why we react the way we do.

Tom

 

[damian]

I think it best to leave it with the observation that many people do not see General Forrest the same way you do Tom and move on.

 

[jazzeum]

I always liked France; except perhaps for Napoleon.

Does that mean you skip Les Invalides?

 

[valmy33]

I always liked France; except perhaps for Napoleon.

Hello Spitfrnd,

Thanks for your message. i
I don't understand why they're so angry. North or South it's incredible : it was 150 years ago. i'm not sure that this subject must be find on this forum : I'm only here for toy soldiers and nothing else.
For Napoleon, I'm agree with you. If you lookat my pages you can see that I'm not interestedon this decade.
We lost some men in the battles and we fight against Europe and we're hated in some countries (Spain, Russland and many more).

Faithfully
Valmy

 

[Spitfrnd]

Does that mean you skip Les Invalides?

Actually no, it is a dazzlingly beautiful structure. Frankly, my comment about Napoleon was a bit tongue and check. Without Napoleon, there would have been no Sharpe.

Hello Spitfrnd,
Thanks for your message. i

I don't understand why they're so angry. North or South it's incredible : it was 150 years ago. i'm not sure that this subject must be find on this forum : I'm only here for toy soldiers and nothing else.

For Napoleon, I'm agree with you. If you lookat my pages you can see that I'm not interestedon this decade.

We lost some men in the battles and we fight against Europe and we're hated in some countries (Spain, Russland and many more).

Faithfully Valmy

Yes the Civil War thing just keeps on ticking in this country. I only get involved in these discussions generally when someone tries to make the South out as ogres, which is simply not correct. The best I can say is that is was a very sad time in our history.

Interestingly I am very interested in the Napoleonic period and it is the main focus of my figure collection. What I did not like about him was his horrible inclination to waste large numbers of men in battle. Of course, he didn't consider it a waste since he won most of them but let's just say he wasn't exactly frugal with his soldiers. I do see your point though, no doubt those wars made France rather unpopular in most of Europe. Happy collecting.