Muslims Murder British Soldier in London today... (2 Viewers)

[Martin Tabony]

In answer to your question, no the UK is not the only 'unarmed' police force in the world. We here in NZ are unarmed but have ready access to firearms in our frontline vehicles, plus Tasers, pepper spray, baton etc.

It may be difficult to comprehend and I understand your thoughts, but not every country is comfortable about their police force's openly carrying firearms.

As for an unarmed officer arriving on the scene looking like a coward, I would have to disagree with you on that. Yes he does have limited tactical options and he'd have to be keen taking on those two, but there are plenty of things he or she could do to assist the situation.......it all comes down to your training, using the tools you have and showing some initiative.

There will be a full enquiry but so far the opinion of those that were there seems to be that the response was, to wait around the corner until armed officers arrived!
Photos of one of the murderers are now being shown with him along side Amjad Chaudhry, a well known hate preacher!

Martin

 

[Desertkiwi]

While it is not necessarily the answer to everything it allows people to protect themselves, and in many cases to protect or intervene for others.

While an in-depth discussion would be a diversion, these thugs would not likely have lasted very long in any town in Texas, and even if an armed police response is prompt they ate always going to arrive after the fact. The fact is police are not protectors because they cannot be everywhere at once to do so. They are an investigative, custodial and reporting agency for the courts.

Here in the U.S. the places where people carry firearms concealed or openly there are less street assaults and things like home invasions.

In this case, the British public being almost completely disarmed - and even being discouraged from self protection - the root problem is a political and cultural problem.

I'm really not interested in getting involved in a gun debate and out of respect I don't think it is the time or place to do so either.

 

[Desertkiwi]

There will be a full enquiry but so far the opinion of those that were there seems to be that the response was, to wait around the corner until armed officers arrived!
Photos of one of the murderers are now being shown with him along side Amjad Chaudhry, a well known hate preacher!

Martin

Thanks for the update Martin, it's much appreciated. I'd imagine it was the standard 'cordon and contain' set up, until they had suitable numbers in place. That of course takes time and then there were all the civilians walking about and in close proximity to the offenders. It's a tough one for the bosses and the lads on the ground, because they really wouldn't have known what they were dealing with.......at least no one else was hurt or injured.

Despite the time delay and the terrible circumstances I think the police did well and displayed a great deal of restraint & courage.

 

[RPZ]

I'm really not interested in getting involved in a gun debate and out of respect I don't think it is the time or place to do so either.

I agree, and said as much. But the question was raised.

The long and the short of it is that most European countries will be more vulnerable to this kind of thing.

One other observation though is that the surrounding people stood and watched this and did nothing. While a meat clever or big knife is intimidating, apparently it did not scare some who filmed it, and no one seemed to think about getting some big stick, pipe or other imprinting standoff weapon and knock these guys out of action.

As it is this unsuspecting soldier was a dead man from the getting. That is not just sad - it is shameful.

 

[Desertkiwi]

I agree, and said as much. But the question was raised.

The long and the short of it is that most European countries will be more vulnerable to this kind of thing.

One other observation though is that the surrounding people stood and watched this and did nothing. While a meat clever or big knife is intimidating, apparently it did not scare some who filmed it, and no one seemed to think about getting some big stick, pipe or other imprinting standoff weapon and knock these guys out of action.

As it is this unsuspecting soldier was a dead man from the getting. That is not just sad - it is shameful.

I don't disagree with most of what your saying here, but I think you'll find most multi-cultural countries have become increasingly vulnerable to this type of violence, I think it's referred to as the 'enemy within'. The Brits are very good at dealing with domestic terrorism and have had to cope with at it for decades, however the 'lone wolf' scenario is incredibly hard to combat........and of course the police and other security agencies have to work within the confines of the law, unlike their adversaries.

As for the whole 'stand around and not get involved' mentality that's been the source of many social studies and sadly is very common. I'm with you, it's shameful & frustrating, especially when you watch the behaviour of the crowd.

 

[Mitch]

I think we should not condemn police officers or the public as I have seen in writings on news storyboards etc. We are talking here as if we have ever lived in a society where people are not afraid or want to get involved. Believe me it takes some strength both physically and mentally to tackle a person or two who have attacked one person and are armed with weapons so, I would not expect members of the public to get involved nor do I expect police officers faced with the information that someone is possibly equipped with a firearm also to do other than await armed response. A 22 inch baton and a stab proof vest is no defence.

I would imagine that its easy to say get a weapon and take them down from a computer but, reality is different the threat was actually low level as these individuals had done what they wanted one victim to grab the headlines and effect their cause. There was no threat to the civilians they had done what they wanted and then wanted to verbally accessorise it to the world watching for maximum effect.

The issues are the complete lack of ability of any city to prevent these when we face an enemy who is on a different level mentally, ideologically etc to us. We believe the fighting is done by chaps in uniform in a traditional sense on battlefields many miles away but, it seems we have learned a lot from the Irish issue but, in another, very little. The gloves really have to come off in the fight we face today as traditional methods are not working. Nothing will ever be able to stop a handful of intent persons from deciding today we will attack with a knife someone in the street.

Large scale attacks may be a rarer occurrence as these almost sneak attacks, strike and run if you wish seem to cause greater fear.
Mitch

 

[damian]

I agree, and said as much. But the question was raised.

The long and the short of it is that most European countries will be more vulnerable to this kind of thing.

One other observation though is that the surrounding people stood and watched this and did nothing. While a meat clever or big knife is intimidating, apparently it did not scare some who filmed it, and no one seemed to think about getting some big stick, pipe or other imprinting standoff weapon and knock these guys out of action.

As it is this unsuspecting soldier was a dead man from the getting. That is not just sad - it is shameful.

It is not like vicious killings etc do not happen in your country.

 

[Martin Tabony]

As Mitch has said it doesn't appear that civvies were in any immediate danger, they were waiting for the police so they got what they wanted! It's always going to be a problem when we have to stay inside the law. These people could easily be "disappeared" but if you start down that road it's very hard to come back.
Hopefully this will be a wake up call though. What do they think of the multicultural experiment now!

Martin

 

[Mitch]

I had this issue over the right to defend yourself and others from attack before with an English member. Its often made out that because we don't have the right to arm up like an extra from a Arnie movie or Rambo that we English cannot defend ourselves or others. Its just not the case.

As with other civilised countries we are entitled to defend ourselves under Statutory and common law. What you have to remember is that each case is based upon its merits of the proportionality of violence and threat you were exposed to.

Its all in how you respond and the amount of violence one uses. Nobody could in this situation just arm themselves with a bar etc and go and batter the assailant. I think regardless of the attack if there was no threat to yourself and the incident was over then it would place you on somewhat shaky ground to use self defence as a defence. If you saw the attack and grabbed the first thing say this metal bar mentioned and got stuck in then I would think no Jury in this country would convict you of any crime.

We certainly are not discouraged from self defence etc it just has to be proportional. A case that is always brought up in relation to this was a farmer who had been burgled a number of times and shot dead one of the burglars on one occasion. The hysterical among our society when this chap was jailed immediately said we lived in a society where we could not defend ourselves. The problem was this Guy shot the youth in the back as he was running away so, the threat was non existent and excessive. It was the case that had he shot the lad coming towards him he would never have got a custodial sentence.

We can defend ourselves we just like to make sure we actually do it properly and in a gentlemanly fashion!!
Mitch

While it is not necessarily the answer to everything it allows people to protect themselves, and in many cases to protect or intervene for others.

While an in-depth discussion would be a diversion, these thugs would not likely have lasted very long in any town in Texas, and even if an armed police response is prompt they ate always going to arrive after the fact. The fact is police are not protectors because they cannot be everywhere at once to do so. They are an investigative, custodial and reporting agency for the courts.

Here in the U.S. the places where people carry firearms concealed or openly there are less street assaults and things like home invasions.

In this case, the British public being almost completely disarmed - and even being discouraged from self protection - the root problem is a political and cultural problem.

 

[Martin Tabony]

The "Angels of Woolwich"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...slaughtered-soldier.html?ICO=most_read_module

 

[Ruggles]

Yes it is a concern about the time delay for an armed response to such an incident, but I fail to see how allowing civilians to carry concealed handguns helps the situation.

As stated not the place for a debate, this story is is far beyond gun control issues IMO. I do not have a vested instead in gun laws in the U.K. just in the U.S. and in Texas in particular.

No way to tell for sure what would have occurred if this was in the heart of a Texas city. All I would say is that if it did and someone wanted to intercede they could have at least had the right to be armed to do so. All hypothetical after that IMO.

 

[Desertkiwi]

The "Angels of Woolwich"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...slaughtered-soldier.html?ICO=most_read_module

Thanks for posting this Martin.
Cheers

 

[Scott]

As stated not the place for a debate, this story is is far beyond gun control issues IMO. I do not have a vested instead in gun laws in the U.K. just in the U.S. and in Texas in particular.

No way to tell for sure what would have occurred if this was in the heart of a Texas city. All I would say is that if it did and someone wanted to intercede they could have at least had the right to be armed to do so. All hypothetical after that IMO.

We already know what 4 Americans flying out of New Jersey did with a snack cart.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Putting the gun control debate to the side, and returning to the theme of the thread, I can only extend my deepest sympathy to the loved ones of the young soldier, murdered on his own home soil by extremists. It is incredibly sad that so many appalling acts are committed by fanatics who repay the education, benefits, freedoms and open-mindedness of Western nations like the United States and Great Britain, who permit them to immigrate and give them every opportunity to succeed, with murder, mayhem and hatred. I also emphasize "fanatics", not Muslims. I have many friends who are Muslims, none of whom are fanatics. Fanatics come in all religions, nationalities, political philosophies, etc. Whenever a person becomes so fanatical that he or she believes his or her beliefs permit them to indiscriminately take the lives of others, they have lost their humanity, and become the kind of monsters capable of this type of evil act.

 

[wadepat]

Gentle Friends,

Unquestionably, the savage murder in the UK of Drummer Lee Rigby arouses the strongest of emotions in all of us. When such an event occurs, our passions soar to great heights and we are tempted to respond most aggressively. To experience these emotions is most human.

However, at times, the discussion in this thread treads on thin ice. To merge opinions of political issues such as gun control, entitlements, etc. with expressions of disbelief, shock, and anger that results from senseless acts can violate the rules of the forum. Also, posting comments that can be interpreted as insensitive can further inflame our emotions and cause undesirable consequences within this thread. Please exercise caution in what you post. It would be a shame to have to close it.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat