New Releases for September 2018 - The Second World War (3 Viewers)

Just a curious observation: I have seen this photo several times on various internet sites regarding F4F-3 Wildcats. In every photo, this particular Wildcat is described as being on the hanger deck of the USS Enterprise and not on the USS Saratoga. Date of when photo was taken is never included in the description. When did VF-3 transfer from the SARA to the Enterprise? Also, I am starting to think that the all gray SARA-02 would be a more appropriate pre-war Wildcat to display on the SARA . . . of course I have pre-ordered SARA-01. Perhaps Moe or Lancer can shed some light on this. Just call me old and confused {eek3}

:smile2: Mike

Mike, before I proceed, let's "cross our T's and dot our I's."

Which pic are you alluding to?

I want to assume that you're referencing the last one posted:

attachment.php


Is that the one?

I ask because the models are from the same squadron, possibly the same ship, and we've got one on a hangar lift and one on a hangar deck!;)

-Moe
 
Mike, before I proceed, let's "cross our T's and dot our I's."

Which pic are you alluding to?

I want to assume that you're referencing the last one posted:

attachment.php


Is that the one?

I ask because the models are from the same squadron, possibly the same ship, and we've got one on a hangar lift and one on a hangar deck!;)

-Moe

Yes that is the photo. When I have found this photo on various internet sites, its always been described as an F4F-3 Wildcat on the hanger deck of the USS Enterprise. I have found one photo identified as the hanger deck of the Enterprise dated October 28, 1941. I am beginning to think that the photo was misidentified as the Enterprise instead of the SARA??? Do a search for the photo and you will see what I mean. For example (1st and 2nd photos from the left in 3rd row): https://ww2db.com/photo.php?source=&list=search&foreigntype=A&foreigntype_id=6

The photo of 3-F-9 BuNo 3982 on the hanger lift is always identified as being on the SARA in Oct 1941 . . . . No question in my mind about that.

:smile2: Mike
 
Yes that is the photo. When I have found this photo on various internet sites, its always been described as an F4F-3 Wildcat on the hanger deck of the USS Enterprise. I have found one photo identified as the hanger deck of the Enterprise dated October 28, 1941. I am beginning to think that the photo was misidentified as the Enterprise instead of the SARA??? Do a search for the photo and you will see what I mean. For example (1st and 2nd photos from the left in 3rd row): https://ww2db.com/photo.php?source=&list=search&foreigntype=A&foreigntype_id=6

The photo of 3-F-9 BuNo 3982 on the hanger lift is always identified as being on the SARA in Oct 1941 . . . . No question in my mind about that.

:smile2: Mike

Mike, let me offer two possibilitiesn, neither of which I can prove...

The first is that the caption on the official Navy pic is wrong, either the ship or the date. Instead, I’d offer the possibility that BOTH pics that I mentioned, the one on the elevator and the one on the hangar deck, of different planes, were taken within days or hours of each other, on Saratoga, in October 1941.

The other is that the pic was taken following the reassignment of VF-2, replacing VF-3, to Lexington prior to the Coral Sea operation. VF-3 had gone onboard Lex following the torpedoing of Saratoga in January. The swap took place because VF-2 still had Buffaloes. Nothing difficult to understand about that!

Lundstrom cites BuNo 3973 as first going on Enterprise in mid-December and departing in March, apparently upgrading to F4F-4 for the Tokyo Raid. It next appears on the Lexington bound for Coral Sea. However, VF-2 took twenty F4F-3 from VF-3 as substitutes for their less desirable F4F-3A. Because of this, 3973 could absolutely have been assigned to VF-3 before the swap.

The one other hint is the plane’s livery. It lacks the red and white tail stripes that were applied to the type in an attempt to limit fratricide shortly after the war began. That makes me think that the pic was taken between between October and February 1941.

Thoughts or insights?

-Moe
 
Mike, just a few more words on the paint schemes...

The overall gray paint scheme directive went into effect on 26 February 1941.

The two-color, blue-gray-upper and light-gray-lower surfaces directive was effective 13 October 1941.

The addition of the tail stripes was a wartime measure as directed 23 December 1941 and was largely complied with by the end of January.

3973 was NOT on Enterprise’ status report of 27 November 1941, first appearing there on the 8 December docs.

3973 landed on the Yorktown after Lexington was hit and survived Coral Sea.

After Coral Sea, replacement aircraft were F4F-4.

That’s all from the Lundstrom book.

-Moe
 
Mike, just a few more words on the paint schemes...

The overall gray paint scheme directive went into effect on 26 February 1941.

The two-color, blue-gray-upper and light-gray-lower surfaces directive was effective 13 October 1941.

The addition of the tail stripes was a wartime measure as directed 23 December 1941 and was largely complied with by the end of January.

3973 was NOT on Enterprise’ status report of 27 November 1941, first appearing there on the 8 December docs.

3973 landed on the Yorktown after Lexington was hit and survived Coral Sea.

After Coral Sea, replacement aircraft were F4F-4.

That’s all from the Lundstrom book.

-Moe
Great info, Moe. Thanks for taking the time to post it. Lundstrom is indispensable. -- Al
 
Thanks for the info Moe. I have convinced myself that the caption on the photo in question is in error and that BuNo 3973 is shown on the hanger deck of the Saratoga, especially since the photo was supposedly taken on 28 Oct 1941. I did receive a very nice email from John concerning my questions and confusion. Below is what he said and my response back along with 3 of the 5 images he attaached. The two images that I couldn't get to download to the forum are images of BuNo 3982 (overall non-specular light gray) from page 8 "Flight Deck: US Navy Carrier Operations, 1940-1945", by Al Adcock, Squadron Signal Publications 2002, and BuNo 3973 (blue gray/light gray camo scheme) page 9 of same reference. Both pictured as they were on the SARA in Oct 1941.

RE: SARATOGA WILDCATS
Thu, Aug 30 2018 8:26 AMFrom: mestell@charter.net
To: jjdesigns@netvigator.com
Attachments Print

Good morning John. Thank you very much for the information and the images. After some research yesterday I am convinced that the two photos showing BuNo 3973 and 3-F-14 have been incorrectly identified as being on the hanger deck of the Enterprise and should have been the Saratoga. I have learned that VF-6 was on the USS Enterprise and never VF-3. I believe that over the years this error was not spotted and has been copied repeatedly on various web sites regarding the history of the F4F-3 Wildcat. As far as the propeller blade cuffs being silver or not, I have seen photos both ways and is not a concern at all for me. I am perfectly comfortable with my thoughts on this and I am very much looking forward to collecting SARA-01 which depicts BuNo 3973 as it was on the SARA in October 1941. Once again, you have done a marvelous job creating a beautiful and accurate model.

All the very best . . .
Mike Estell

-----------------------------------------

From: "John Jenkins"
To: mestell@charter.net
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday August 29 2018 11:44:19PM
Subject: SARATOGA WILDCATS

Hi Mike

Hope you are well?
Many thanks again for participating in the JJD 2nd AA Event, and congratulations on winning a prize.
One of the Singapore collectors has also brought your questions about the Saratoga Widcats to my attention.
I thought I would help the discussion by adding some research notes.

I have attached the reference pictures for both the SARA-01 and the SARA-02 models.
These were both taken from the book “WINGS OF THE FLEET” The Aviation Workshop Publications Ltd.
Both are referenced as USS Saratoga VF-3.
I also attach the pictures(photographs) from the book.
It does show 3973, but mentions it is on the USS Enterprise? This is based mainly on a part held by the petty officer in his hands that bears the number 3973, but it is extremely hard to make out.
It does look like I should have painted the Propellor blade covers silver?

Not sure why or if one of the pictures is not correct?

The book also references that their information comes from p9, “Flight Deck: US Navy Carrier Operations 1940 1945” by Al Adcock, Squadron Signal Publications 2002.
I do not have this book. If anyone has this I would be interested to know what it brings to light.

I also have another picture of the USS Enterprise hanger deck, which I have attached. This I make out as 3-F -14.

Looking forward to what everyone digs up!

Best regards

john

F4F-3 Wildcat being assembled on USS Enterprise 28 Oct 1941.jpg

F4F-3_Bu._No._3982_VF-3.jpg

F4F Saratoga.jpg
 
This is a great thread, with lots of really interesting info being exchanged. I salute everyone's attention to detail regarding this subject. Got me to pull my copy of 'Wings of the Fleet' out just to read it myself. Reading stuff like this just makes my day.:salute:: -- Al
 
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Here are the pages from “Flight Deck: US Navy Carrier Operations 1940 1945” by Al Adcock, Squadron Signal Publications 2002:

The book refers to 3973 as being on Saratoga.
 

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All,

I was the culprit who mentioned the possibility that the photo in question was of the F4F that John modeled his blue painted version on.
I think JJD makes the most accurate, and true to facts efforts of any manufacturers possibly could, as to their products.
and I, in no way think the lack of silver prop sleeves on the blue painted F4F is a detriment to it's accuracy or desirability! this is the smallest of elements possible, the Oct 1941 photo shows us just how close to the appearance of the actual Wildcat JJD got!

It is entirely possible that the photo was taken AFTER a black sleeved prop set was replaced, or just before one was put on. these suffered terribly during operations.
leaving the model as painted if absolutely accurate!

I have ordered the Blue F4F, and cannot wait for it to be added my collection!
Thank you John Jenkins Designs, I applaud your efforts for realism and accuracy. you are actually the closest I've seen to the impossible goal of exactly right. the Wildcat is 99%.
 
Here are the pages from “Flight Deck: US Navy Carrier Operations 1940 1945” by Al Adcock, Squadron Signal Publications 2002:

The book refers to 3973 as being on Saratoga.

Thank you so very much Moe for providing the definitive photo proof that the picture in question of BuNo 3973 was on the hanger deck of the SARA and not on the Enterprise. How the error was made will be a mystery but I am very happy that my curiosity and questions have been thoroughly answered. As Al stated above, great thread and the exchange of information was over the top. Now gentlemen, prepare for takeoff . . .
:smile2: Mike
 
Here are the pages from “Flight Deck: US Navy Carrier Operations 1940 1945” by Al Adcock, Squadron Signal Publications 2002:

The book refers to 3973 as being on Saratoga.
Gonna have to track this book down now. -- Al
 
I just ordered the next to last available model of three major retailers of the Sara-01 Wildcat pre-order. A 3-6 month wait for the next production run. {sm3}

Special thanks to Julie! :salute:: Chris
 
I just ordered the next to last available model of three major retailers of the Sara-01 Wildcat pre-order. A 3-6 month wait for the next production run. {sm3}

Special thanks to Julie! :salute:: Chris

GOOD NEWS, CHRIS!!!
I'm picking up mine in Chicago ... looking forward to adding them to my US NAVY WWII Pacific collection.

--- LaRRy
 
GOOD NEWS, CHRIS!!!
I'm picking up mine in Chicago ... looking forward to adding them to my US NAVY WWII Pacific collection.

--- LaRRy

Larry, let me know what you think. The Corsair is a beauty and think the Wildcat will be the same. Chris
 
I just ordered the next to last available model of three major retailers of the Sara-01 Wildcat pre-order. A 3-6 month wait for the next production run. {sm3}

Special thanks to Julie! :salute:: Chris

Chris, did TF indicate when the new sets might reach them?

-Moe
 
I thought that we would see the Stug III by now.....Maybe in Oct....I hope
 
Check out the pic of the Moto acft tug on the JJD Treasure Hunt thread. Very cool, and more items to come. ^&grin Hope to see some carts with ordnance. Chris
 
Check out the pic of the Moto acft tug on the JJD Treasure Hunt thread. Very cool, and more items to come. ^&grin Hope to see some carts with ordnance. Chris

Julie will forgive me if I slip a link in here:

attachment.php


-Moe
 
NEW RELEASES FOR SEPTEMBER 2018
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS

View attachment 236294

The Grumman F4F Wildcat is an American carrier-based fighter aircraft that began service with both the United States Navy and the British Royal Navy in 1940, where it was initially known by the latter as the Martlet.
The F4F was Grumman’s first monoplane fighter design and was to prove to be one of the great naval fighter aircraft of World War 2.
In 1939 Grumman were successful in obtaining a Navy order for 54 F4F-3’s. The RAF also received 81 F4F-3’s which were named the Martlet I.
The initial deliveries to the US navy were in December 1940, with the first of the planes going to the USS Ranger, and USS Wasp.
These were the only carriers which had the F4F-3’s when war broke out.

View attachment 236295

First used in combat by the British in the North Atlantic, the Wildcat was the only effective fighter available to the United States Navy and Marine Corps in the Pacific Theater during the early part of World War II in 1941 and 1942; the disappointing Brewster Buffalo was withdrawn in favor of the Wildcat and replaced as units became available. With a top speed of 318 mph (512 km/h), the Wildcat was outperformed by the faster 331 mph (533 km/h), more maneuverable, and longer-ranged Mitsubishi A6M Zero. However, the F4F's ruggedness, coupled with tactics such as the Thach Weave, resulted in a claimed air combat kill-to-loss ratio of 5.9:1 in 1942 and 6.9:1 for the entire war.
Lessons learned from the Wildcat were later applied to the faster F6F Hellcat. While the Wildcat had better range and maneuverability at low speed, the Hellcat could rely on superior power and high speed performance to outperform the Zero. The Wildcat continued to be built throughout the remainder of the war to serve on escort carriers, where larger and heavier fighters could not be used.


View attachment 236296
SARA-01
THE SECOND WORLD WAR,
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS,
GRUMMAN F4F-3 WILDCAT,
BuNo3973, FIGHTING SQUADRON THREE(VF-3),
USS SARATOGA (CV-3), OCTOBER 1941
(13pcs)

By late 1941 nearly all of the colourful squadron markings were either gone entirely or existed as quite small examples close by the cockpit area. VF-3’s famous “Felix The Cat” emblem is thus reduced to a 6” diameter circle forward of the cockpit on BuNo 3973.

View attachment 236297

View attachment 236298
I picked up the wildcat in the light blue markings from Treefrog at the OTSN, and I can only say, in my personal opinion, it is the finest model plane I have ever seen in the hobby. There are two sets of machine gun covers, so you can display the plane with the machine guns and ammunition belts visible or covered. The landing gear attaches simply but sturdily with a magnet and pin, and there is a second set of landing gear in the up position so you can display the aircraft in flight. The flaps move, and the cockpit canopy slides open and closed. 😎😎😎😎😎
 

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