OFFICIAL Firefly Photos (4 Viewers)

[Rob]

True, the Jadgtiger and other turret-less AFV's are relatively easy to isolate if immobilized. Not the same with a Tiger and other heavy tanks with turrets. As long as their turret can traverse they can give anyone within range a bad hair day, especially over open terrain.

It must have been desperate inside those things, knowing you were immobilized and being hunted.In the case of the Jagdtiger i think as many were destroyed by their own crew than by enemy action.

Rob

 

[Rob]

The tracks and rear armor/engine compartments were vulnerable to 17 pdr, 76 mm AT rounds and even bazookas. Sounds like a simple question but the answer is very complex. It depends not only on the gun but very much on the type of projectile being used, and especially for solid shot, the range.

Side skirts on Panzer IVs, sandbags on Shermans and bed springs on T-34s were to reduce the effect of shaped charge AT rounds by igniting the charge so far from the tank armour, the molten jet would not be long enough to penetrate into the interior of the tank. These measures were not effective against a high velocity solid AT round at 500 - 1000 metres.

The composition of the armour and the slope also affected the rounds effectiveness. Sloped armour could actually deflect shots at certain speeds and angles of impact. And some high velocity rounds went so fast, especially at close range, they were known to shatter on impact and not penetrate the tank armour.

Terry

And didn't the Germans pinch the idea of sloping armour on the Panther from their experiences with the T34.Its funny,when you look up close at the welding on a T34 it looks pretty poor,but what Tank overall.They really went for quality not looks!

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

It must have been desperate inside those things, knowing you were immobilized and being hunted.In the case of the Jagdtiger i think as many were destroyed by their own crew than by enemy action.

Rob

Revisit Frank's numbers earlier on this thread. Of 223 Panthers lost over a several month period, 96 (43%) were from allied fire and 103 (46%) were from the crews destroying or abandoning their tanks.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Revisit Frank's numbers earlier on this thread. Of 223 Panthers lost over a several month period, 96 (43%) were from allied fire and 103 (46%) were from the crews destroying or abandoning their tanks.

Terry

This was perhaps mainly due to track damage or running out of fuel?.I'm guessing the German War machine could ill afford to lose Panthers in such a manner.

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

This was perhaps mainly due to track damage or running out of fuel?.I'm guessing the German War machine could ill afford to lose Panthers in such a manner.

Rob

or engine failure, or transmission failure or driving the tank into a spot it couldn't drive out of. Despite Oz comment that even an immobilized tank could rotate it's turret, not so well if the engine wasn't running through failure or lack of fuel. And how many crew would sit in an immobilized tank out in the open, good field of fire or not. Being able to shoot and scoot was vital. One or two rounds would give away their position, even if it was a concealed position, and time for artillery or aircraft to be called in.

Terry

 

[Rob]

or engine failure, or transmission failure or driving the tank into a spot it couldn't drive out of. Despite Oz comment that even an immobilized tank could rotate it's turret, not so well if the engine wasn't running through failure or lack of fuel. And how many crew would sit in an immobilized tank out in the open, good field of fire or not. Being able to shoot and scoot was vital. One or two rounds would give away their position, even if it was a concealed position, and time for artillery or aircraft to be called in.

Terry

Didn't the Tiger have either a slow rotating turret or cranked operated turret?.I thought its slow traverse was one of the few setbacks with the Tank?

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Didn't the Tiger have either a slow rotating turret or cranked operated turret?.I thought its slow traverse was one of the few setbacks with the Tank?

Yes, slow. It required 15 seconds for a 360 degree turn or 5 -6 seconds for a 90 degree turn. And if the drive motor went down, 750 turns of a hand crank were needed to accomplish the same 360 turn or almost 200 turns for a 90 degree turn. A Sherman tactic when there was no way out was to outflank a lone Tiger at close range using speed to move into a rear firing position faster than the turret could rotate.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Yes, slow. It required 15 seconds for a 360 degree turn or 5 -6 seconds for a 90 degree turn. And if the drive motor went down, 750 turns of a hand crank were needed to accomplish the same 360 turn or almost 200 turns for a 90 degree turn. A Sherman tactic when there was no way out was to outflank a lone Tiger at close range using speed to move into a rear firing position faster than the turret could rotate.

Terry

Now i never knew that!.Thank you Terry.That must have been a very nervous game though,trying to stay one jump ahead of that 88.Wow said it before say it again,you sure needed some globes to crew those Shermans.

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Now i never knew that!.Thank you Terry.That must have been a very nervous game though,trying to stay one jump ahead of that 88.Wow said it before say it again,you sure needed some globes to crew those Shermans.

Rob

Keep in mind, it was a nervous game for the Tiger crew too. The 88 had to traverse ahead of the Sherman and fire at a zig zagging fast moving tank at 300 - 500 yards - and there was usually more than 1 Sherman, some trying to go around the other side. The Tigers tried to keep a long distance against massed T-34 attacks taking them head on in the wide open steppes. The shorter distances in western European terrain made Tiger stand-off shooting more difficult to achieve.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Keep in mind, it was a nervous game for the Tiger crew too. The 88 had to traverse ahead of the Sherman and fire at a zig zagging fast moving tank at 300 - 500 yards - and there was usually more than 1 Sherman, some trying to go around the other side.

Terry

And of course one of those Zigzagging Shermans could just well be the Firefly with the big sting!

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

And of course one of those Zigzagging Shermans could just well be the Firefly with the big sting!

Rob

The 17 pdr would not need to get all the way around to a rear shot position even against a Tiger, especially at 500 yards. Besides, tank tactics (British and Canadian) often had the Sherman 75mm and troops advancing, backed up by the long range Firefly often in a concealed support position. The Fireflys did not usually lead the attack. Even though the German doctrine was to shoot the Fireflys first, because of how they were used, Firefly losses were no higher than for those of the 75 mm Shermans. Likely the reason that Ekins got the 3 tigers closest to him was probably because his was the only Firefly in A Company. He repeatedly moved out of cover, fired a side shot at a Tiger reversed into cover, reloaded, and repeated this action. I think he took 4 shots to get the 3 Tigers.

Terry

 

[lancer]

Thanks guys thats all very interesting.Theres no doubt the 'Taxi ranks' of Typhoons had a huge impact in Normandy,i can't honestly think the Germans would be so cautious in moving their precious armour if there wasn't a real threat from the Air.I think we can agree that although not accurate, a hit from one of these rockets would be enough to destroy or disable a Panther or Tiger I.

I for one am very thankful to those Allied Pilots whose very presence in the air over Normandy struck fear and terror into the hearts of German Tank crew and severely limited their movements on the ground.Even the mighty Tiger had a weapon to fear.


Rob

The threat of air attack was more than just the threat to the tanks. The damage done to support vehicles, supplies, and, most importantly, personal, was every bit as crucial as taking out a tank. Armor units are only as effective as their logistical support lets them be. The air attacks crippled movement and the logistics and thus proved more crucial than just knocking out a few tanks. Rob is right. Those ground attack pilots are owed a lot more credit than they have received compared to their more glamorous brothers who flew a little higher in the sky. -- lancer

 

[Rob]

The 17 pdr would not need to get all the way around to a rear shot position even against a Tiger, especially at 500 yards. Besides, tank tactics (British and Canadian) often had the Sherman 75mm and troops advancing, backed up by the long range Firefly often in a concealed support position. The Fireflys did not usually lead the attack. Even though the German doctrine was to shoot the Fireflys first, because of how they were used, Firefly losses were no higher than for those of the 75 mm Shermans. Likely the reason that Ekins got the 3 tigers closest to him was probably because his was the only Firefly in A Company. He repeatedly moved out of cover, fired a side shot at a Tiger reversed into cover, reloaded, and repeated this action. I think he took 4 shots to get the 3 Tigers.

Terry

And for a relative novice that was some shooting.Weren't the Tigers advancing in a line at some speed,surely if they had any idea Ekin and co were there they would have engaged them.I remember Ekin saying how scared he was to advance out of the Orchard to fire at a Tiger,there we have a young man,only previously fired practice rounds,advancing against three of the most famous Tank in the World,the things we asked these young men to do is amazing.

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

And for a relative novice that was some shooting.Weren't the Tigers advancing in a line at some speed,surely if they had any idea Ekin and co were there they would have engaged them.I remember Ekin saying how scared he was to advance out of the Orchard to fire at a Tiger,there we have a young man,only previously fired practice rounds,advancing against three of the most famous Tank in the World,the things we asked these young men to do is amazing.

Rob

Actually, the most famous tank was over 1000 metres away over the crest of the field.

And yes, he had to hit moving targets.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Actually, the most famous tank was over 1000 metres away over the crest of the field.

Terry

So its even MORE amazing Ekin hit it!

This is going to run and run isn't it!

I guess we'll never know,we should go over to France and film our own docu,putting our own evidence and arguments forward.As i once saw a History programme entitled 'The History of Dung' i'm sure they'd buy it!

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

So its even MORE amazing Ekin hit it!

This is going to run and run isn't it!

I guess we'll never know,we should go over to France and film our own docu,putting our own evidence and arguments forward.As i once saw a History programme entitled 'The History of Dung' i'm sure they'd buy it!

Rob

That would be a trip. Perhaps in the Spring?

Terry

 

[Rob]

That would be a trip. Perhaps in the Spring?

Terry

Next year we are hoping to do Normandy and Florida.I hear theres a chance a Canadian Sherman caught up with Wittman in 'Its a small world after all' ride and all hell broke loose!!

Rob

 

[Blowtorch]

So while i've got the attention of so many of the forum experts,i hope you'll indulge me again.Apart from a bomb or rocket from the air,did the Allies have a weapon capable of taking out a Jagdtiger?.

Rob

flamethrower
Calliope

 

[Blowtorch]

.Does anyone know if the 17pounder or 76MM could penetrate the front of the Panther.

Rob

17 pounder firing APCBC could penetrate a Panther frontal

turret @ 1600 yds
mantlet @ 2500 yds
glacis @ 0 yds
hull @ 400 yds

76mm likewise

turret @ 700 m
mantlet @ 100 m
glacis @ 0 m
nose @ 0 m

Sherman 75 (0,0,0,0)
Cromwell/Churchill 75 (0,0,0,0)
T34/85 (500,0,0,0)
JS2/JSU122 (1500, 500, 0, 100)

Panther attacking JS2 (800, 400, 600, 1000) which makes the JS2 the war's main contender against a Panther by a wide margin

 

[Rob]

17 pounder firing APCBC could penetrate a Panther frontal

turret @ 1600 yds
mantlet @ 2500 yds
glacis @ 0 yds
hull @ 400 yds

76mm likewise

turret @ 700 m
mantlet @ 100 m
glacis @ 0 m
nose @ 0 m

Sherman 75 (0,0,0,0)
Cromwell/Churchill 75 (0,0,0,0)
T34/85 (500,0,0,0)
JS2/JSU122 (1500, 500, 0, 100)

Panther attacking JS2 (800, 400, 600, 1000) which makes the JS2 the war's main contender against a Panther by a wide margin

Hey thanks very much,its kind of you to go to the trouble of writing that out,its very interesting.

Rob