Reflections and thoughts on "P" (2 Viewers)

[jazzeum]

Lol lol - it's not often Sting finds his way into the forum.

Though Rob and I once did a whole series of posts where we had to use the title of a Status Quo song without anybody noticing.

Yes, where is Rob? Too bad we haven't heard from him much lately.

Brad

 

[Eazy]

Yes, where is Rob? Too bad we haven't heard from him much lately.

Brad

Spoke to him last week he's ok - just recharging his posting batteries I think!

 

[jazzeum]

James,

Give him my best please.

Brad

 

[uksubs]

---

Here's my feelings:

Ok so K&c Does mahogany warbirds which could be considered premium and as they continue to produce them it is obvious there is a large collector base for these....HOWEVER THIS GETS ME:

Remember what happened in the last months of 2012, Andy announced the discontinuation of the Arnhem range. If there was a large collector base for Market Garden where the premium series could prosper then why did Andy announce the discontinuation of the series. Why did he not just continue to produce MG figures.

He choose to discontinue the range (only he will know why) But then when all the collectors including myself made an uproar then he announced that he had changed his mind!

Now we are seeing premium figures (P) in the MG range which was due discontinuation just 4 months ago. If Andy felt the MG range was popular then why did he announce the discontinuation?

Then when bringing out new releases he brings the P figures out using that range as what seems like a test. If there were not enough buyers when it was MG then what are the chances of this increasing when they are MG(P)

Just seems too backward to me! Unless Andy saw the responses to the discontinuation and spent the last few months thinking of how he could use this to his advantage? I can't see how the release of P figures can be justified when everything that has hapened in relation to the MG range is taken into account?

For those of you who I have lost in the spiel, here's a timeline.

Around 2007/8 Andy annouces new MG Range - Forum is filled with excitement
In August/September of 2008 (I think) 16 odd figures are released with 2 vehicles
The Next year another 5 figures and an artillery piece are released.
Almost a year passes then Poles are released
Then a large gap almost 2 years then final releases are made (unknown to collectors)
Another year or maybe 2 then in The final quarter of 2012 we are told that arnhem is discontinued (Why? We may assume Andy thought this range was not popular enough)
The following week see countless threads about Arnhem/MG
Then Andy comes back and announces he had a meeting with whoever his main staff are and has planned for 20 new figures or so
April 2013 and the figures come out but are of the 'Premium' range

Now between cancelling the range and bringing new figures out, we must assume that Andy had a change of heart?

So the range went from being not very collectable to a range where only collectors who can afford high costs can collect?

Maybe Andy is fed up with Market Garden and wants it to end so is making the figures dearer to limit collectors purchasing them?

Who knows, I look forward to hearing his responses but!:smile2:

Scott

Scott you Maybe onto something mate :wink2: think we may be paying top $ as there not a great seller from what Brett said before

 

[_FLYNN_86]

if the production numbers where a lot lower for this new range I might be willing to buy them. But until I see them up close and we find out for sure where this p thing is going I will keep my money in my pocket. Prices of new models are rising all the time and they never seem to hold there price in the secondary market. I've seen sets going on ebay for £20 below what the person has paid for it. I know you should only buy what you like and makes you happy but I also like to think they would hold there value but for general releases it doesn't seem to be the case. I hope they are limited production numbers because then it would justify paying £55 each. Also seems odd this line was being discontinued last year but is now being used as p guinea pig. Would really like to hear a bit more from Andy about this.

Liam

 

[cnq]

if the production numbers where a lot lower for this new range I might be willing to buy them. But until I see them up close and we find out for sure where this p thing is going I will keep my money in my pocket. Prices of new models are rising all the time and they never seem to hold there price in the secondary market. I've seen sets going on ebay for £20 below what the person has paid for it. I know you should only buy what you like and makes you happy but I also like to think they would hold there value but for general releases it doesn't seem to be the case. I hope they are limited production numbers because then it would justify paying £55 each. Also seems odd this line was being discontinued last year but is now being used as p guinea pig. Would really like to hear a bit more from Andy about this.

Liam

Yes the good old days of high prices in secondary market is over. Unless the item is rare, you're not going to get your money back when decide to sell your collections for whatever reason.

 

[_FLYNN_86]

Maybe I might wait a year and see what pops up on ebay

 

[HistoryfortheAges]

Yes the good old days of high prices in secondary market is over. Unless the item is rare, you're not going to get your money back when decide to sell your collections for whatever reason.

Very valid point!

The secondary market will be the place to pick-up the collectibles you want at lower prices in the coming years and there will be a lot to choose from. Current retail prices for some of the toy soldier companies out there are now outrageous for your average collectors and even collectors with the financial resources... {eek3} Companies will have to price compete with their own products dumped on eBay or other auction sites in coming years... {eek3}{eek3}{eek3} ... and it will be interesting how that turns out... {sm2}

 

[Firebat]

Actually you've hit on a good point- I'd have been way more interested in these figures if they were dynamic action poses and not poses standing around with binoculars and making tea.

It is incredible how opinions can drastically differ......I love K&C non action poses, as a diorama builder they make for interesting scenes. K&C has done the best job of any manufacturer in this area. Alex

 

[IONA]

Yes the good old days of high prices in secondary market is over. Unless the item is rare, you're not going to get your money back when decide to sell your collections for whatever reason.

You dont get your money back on the really rare sets either in the UK
The market in UK is dead
Scott

 

[The Military Workshop]

---

Scott you Maybe onto something mate :wink2: think we may be paying top $ as there not a great seller from what Brett said before

Neil,
Not sure where you got that comment from. My comment earlier in this thread regarding Para sales was as follows :

Neil - TG paras and Germans etc are cheaper than K&C. However I sell more of K&C. An obvious reason for this would be they have the item available for me to order for much longer periods (in some cases 4-5 years, obviously there must be a cost in this as mentioned by Brad elsewhere). TG Para paint scheme quite different to K&C and in my view do not mix well with K&C. Of all the TG items I have got my Para figures have not been one of the popular ones (I got more Foreign Legion and 24th Foot).

Brett

 

[uksubs]

Brett I think it was from a post last year that you said MG range was not a great seller mate ^&confuse also there still a lot of dealer still holding the stock which would back this up don't you think .

 

[The Military Workshop]

Brett I think it was from a post last year that you said MG range was not a great seller mate ^&confuse also there still a lot of dealer still holding the stock which would back this up don't you think .

Neil,
If it was from a post last year I would guess it was mid year when the whole Arnhem thing was being discussed. By that time any Arnhem figures would have been released for a few years already. Based on other newer items available I would not expect older figures to be selling as well. This is because all regular collectors had already had plenty of time to collect all.

I have no idea about other dealers stocks. I have seen forum members comment on dealers stock levels in the past. Any such stock level is the responsibility of the dealer and not K&C. If a dealer is overstocked on current Arnhem figures then somewhere he has misjudged the market. With a product that has been around for years and which can still be ordered he must have over ordered. I have done this myself with a few items from different brands but nothing to do with K&C. In some cases I have got too many, others not enough and in the case of one recent item
(not K&C) I got none as I was too slow to order and was sold out well before release.

I would say that with the new figures at $55 the older Arnhem figures still available from dealers are a bargain. If I was a dealer holding too much older stock I would be pointing that out to potential new collectors.

Based on current feedback from my collectors these new Arnhem figures are going to be above average K&C sellers (this is based purely on pre orders - harder to tell over the long term).

Brett

 

[Rob]

Lol lol - it's not often Sting finds his way into the forum.

Though Rob and I once did a whole series of posts where we had to use the title of a Status Quo song without anybody noticing.

^&grin

That was a laugh wasn't it mate!^&grin Trying to get 'Roll Over Lay Down' into a sentence on a TS Forum was a tall order though!!^&grin:wink2:

Rob

 

[arnhem44mad]

The forum won't let me view page 10????

 

[lancer]

The forum won't let me view page 10????

Same here. I tried earlier this AM and couldn't get in. -- Al

 

[marco55]

Same here.
Mark

 

[pugio]

So far I'v bought most of the 7th Cavalry figures, some in triplecate, intending to do a diarama on a shelf. I was very pleased with the sculpts, painting, etc. as I mentioned on another thread. Then came the Indians. I like what they look like, painting, sculpts, etc but the price is a little high. I will suck it up and probably by them all, but I would have felt a lot better about Mr. Andy and K&C If he would have mentioned before anyone bought the cavalry figures that there was going to be a rather large increase in price on the Indians. I'v already starting this series, and want to finish it. After that, it's good bye K&C, have a nice life. There's that old saying, "Fool me once, ...........

 

[Rob]

Have not been fully involved in this topic as kind of just sat back and read other peoples views instead, but now I have quite a few of these 'P' figures I have to say I really like them and think there is indeed a difference in the painting. The faces to put it simply do seem more realistic to me and the uniform painting sharper somehow. However what I appreciate most is the fact that despite the increases in realism they still go very nicely indeed with the previous releases from the Arnhem range. I still have a few to get but I am a happy collector:salute::

Rob

 

[ivanmoe]

The subject of price as regards "collectible toys" has a tendency to become emotional at times. This may be true because so many of us lived through a sort of collector's golden age, one when discretionary incomes were high, our national currencies were strong, and the cost of Chinese manufactures was VERY low. Suffice it to say, it's no fun getting the rug pulled out from under ones purchasing regime, just because there's been a sea-change in the relationship between maker and buyer. These facts acknowledged, It's still awfully easy to become sullen when confronted with the new economics of collecting, but that's just where we are, IMHO.

To take some of the edge off of the conversation, and some of the heat off of this, or that, TS manufacturer, I'm going to post some quotes from William Liu, a representative of Hobby Master, a maker of collectible model airplanes. In doing so, I acknowledge that TS and toy model airplanes are distinctly different products. Because of that, I'd be wrong to draw too strong a correlation between the two. However, I believe that TS makers are in much the same staits as the makers of model airplanes. All that I ask is that our readers keep an open mind, and be willing to accept any parallels that may exist between the two endeavors.

First, on the biggest challenge facing Hobby Master:

The biggest challenge is costing including the rise of salaries and inflation in mainland China. Also the structural change of the Chinese economy poses a big challenge for us. Manufacturing is receiving less support from the government today.

Second, in response to complaints about quality control in his products:

QC is a problem for most manufacturers indeed. Stability of the labour force is a big questions for us. We see the turnover rate as very high in the factory. We always wish to maintain a higher standard of finished products. Resources have to be provide for a stronger QC team and we will see what can be done.

Third, in response to complaints about the quality of camo and other paint to HM models:

We need to discuss with the engineering department. Mottle pattern tends to be more realistic but it requires skilled labour hand spraying the pattern. It can be done but the scrap rate will be higher. We need to check whether it can be done in an acceptable level.

and:

We have been using FS and color charts but this has to be toned down a bit when applying onto a model. Otherwise, everything will look too dark. But we can provide some standard color to the production team and indeed this is what we are doing now. But production control is another matter.

Fourth, in regard to some of the quirkier flaws that show up in models, ones that could easily be remedied were the master properly scrutinized before production began:

This is relating to a much larger question indeed. Collectors expect their models to be as realistic as possible (and this certainly involves more time and cost). However, manufacturing wishes to fully utilize factory resources (not leaving anything idling).

Fifth, on the business environment associated with toy manufacturing:

The latest news around our area is that a model factory (producing automobiles and military) that used to employ around 4,000 people but has closed last month. It was down to around 300 people before closing and leaving quite some debt unsettled.

Sixth, on the possibility of new molds from HM or it's offspring Skymax:

We probably won’t see too many moulds from either Hobby Master or SkyMax given the return and investment problem. Indeed, we don’t have any plans for a new SkyMax’s mould yet.

Finally, on the future of finished models like those produced by Hobby Master:

I would just want to mention one final word about finished diecast models. It will become more and more difficult as times go on. This is reflected by the ever rising prices of older models. Production is getting harder than ever before. With higher selling prices we can only maintain reasonable profits to keep running today. So support from the collectors is very important.

Sound pretty glum, wouldn't you say? Well, venerable old Corgi is in trouble, yet again, also. The "Pooch" lost a million bucks last year, and dumped their Chinese supplier, apparently in self-defense, at a cost of $600K. This against a backdrop such that many, many QUALITY model manufacturers have gone out of business in the last five years. It's tough out there, gentlemen, very, very tough.

In closing, I'm absolutely obligated to state that the quotes above were garnered from the darn-near impenetrable innards of the DAF diecast forum. I'd post a link to the whole interview, but the way that the manuscript was formatted and linked to the forum makes it impossible to do so. Still, thanks to the folks who conducted and published the interview, regardless of it's somewhat peculiar restrictions on access.

-Moe