Reflections and thoughts on "P" (2 Viewers)

In an earlier thread about pricing someone predicted that at 75.00 per figure prices would stabilize. I thought they were crazy, but at this rate this time next year 75.00 plus is very likely. I really miss the days when you could buy a four figure set for 79.00. They're was nothing like opening that box and pulling the figures out of the foam and pealing that tissue paper off each figure. I really looked forward too that.
 
I think the new Parra figures look great. I like the paint on the camo witch is much better then the old ones. They would not go well together thou . I may get a few . Chris.
 
My 0.02 on this.

I see a company experimenting and exploring new areas with this "P" line. The past year had seen other areas being explored, like Ceremonials, LOA, etc. For a while, there were some dispatches whereby WW2 collectors have no interest in.

So, I would suggest to keep an open mind and see how this evolves. Also, this "P" line may be to attract other new collectors, who are looking for more details, just like when in 2005, there were better sculpts. I see no reason that this MG follows the FL scale since FL is stronger on the ancients.

In the end, the bigger concern and true reality is that the cost of manufacturing in China is going up for something that is labor intensive, whether this is a "P" range or a standard range. The China workers also want a better car and a better house. Unfortunately, the salaries in the rest of the world (where the collectors reside) are not keeping up. If you have a chance to travel to China, please see for yourself.

The scary part is when the China rich start collecting, and soaking up the demand for such products at any price. The only reason stopping this is because of the lack of external knowledge of the world military history as books from Ospreys, Stackpole are mostly in English now. I think that day will come when this gap closes. Perhaps, by then we will be forced to stop collecting.

Rgds,Chris
 
Hi Guys,
Has been an interesting few days of comments on price so I thought I would make mine (make a coffee now !). I now count 5 threads on the Arnhem figure prices. Whilst I do not agree with every point I thought CFM's post was a good one which is why I am posting in this thread.

Below is part of Stephen Chongs report from Andy's comments from the recent West Coast show :
"Unfortunately, costs keep increasing. Despite having more than 1.4 billion people, there is actually a labor shortage in China with few young people willing to do low tech jobs like painting figures. K&C will be celebrating its 30th anniversary, having started in 1983. It started producing in China in 1988. Around that time, a painter earned US$200 to $300 per month and factories had 400 or more painters working double shifts. Now, K&C's biggest factory only has 50 to 60 painters each earning 3 to 4 times more. There has also been drastic increases in raw material and transportation costs (compare cost of gasoline in 1980's to now. But there has also been an increase in quality and variety coupled with customers becoming more demanding".

There were some other interesting comments in that talk that may be more relevant now (worth a look).

Chris Tay just mentioned China costs and I think he would have more knowledge of this than most. I know from talking to my TS suppliers they are constantly talking about changing factories, looking for new ones etc. Obviously they are looking for better value / quality and trying to keep prices down. Some may recall K&C rejecting production runs in the past (ie. some MK's and the larger landing craft). I hope he wont mind me saying but two years ago John Jenkins told me he had personally stood outside a factory with a banner enticing workers with higher pay. As I understand it good painters are highly sought after.

Mid last year I visited Hong Kong and I kept a newspaper supplement on manufacturing in China. There were numerous examples of businessmen running big factories complaining about constant increases in wages and regulations. One I remember was a major baseball cap producer and the business was moving to Bangladesh to escape the constant rises (good luck with the floods and cyclones). Another who had had 10,000 workers in his early years was lamenting the fact he was no longer making good profit and was pretty much running the factory to pay the staff. The common thread was the good old days of cheap China labour had gone. As Chris says Chinese worker pay and benefits are rising far faster than in the western world of the TS collector.

As a K&C dealer my business has a significant interest in K&C making good decisions in such matters as selection/series, figure poses and pricing etc. I remember thinking what was Andy doing when he brought out the Jesus series but some of those figures went on to become very good sellers. My business is "cushioned" by the fact I sell other brands (ie. CS, TG, JJ and BR) and have another totally different side of my business (medals and framing).

My reaction to the price jump of Arnhem and the Indians was also one of surprise as it was more of a rise than normal. I can appreciate the price rises are not welcome by collectors but take a moment to consider it from the other side. For the collector this is a luxury hobby so really the choice is about whether or not you will buy a metal soldier that may have crossed your price level. For Andy/K&C this is a business that affects his livelihood and those of his staff and indirectly the factories and his dealers. He has a lot more riding on this than any collector so I think it safe to assume he gave considerable thought to this pricing change knowing that it would not be popular.

Having dealt with Andy for over 10 years and had many conversations with him I know price has always been an important consideration. From my knowledge he works on a certain percentage on top of the factory price. Whether or not the Arnhem and Indian figures are a significant change in detail I cant comment on at this stage but I am sure the percentage is the same. However here is another way to compare the Armhem figures. Try to imagine going into a TS shop for the first time (ie. never seen a TS before) and you see the Arnhem figures and the two new US Medic sets (2 for $85 so $42.50 each). I think it is clear that the Arnhem figures would require more painting time and hence cost more. On that comparison the $55 is not unreasonable if compared to the Medics.

Some other points to consider. The variety of product now across various brands, historical periods and price points is huge (and lets not forget the UK cottage guys:wink2:). I would like to think I have a good variety of stock across the brands I stock but I think, as a dealer, there is too much variety available. Whilst this may seem good for the collector it may not be as good as you think. Whilst my view might be slightly different to a USA dealer I am sure all dealers are finding there are some series that hardly sell at all. In some cases there have been items I simply did not get in and had no orders for. For a brand that means their successful series has to cover any series that does not sell as expected. A knock on effect of this is that brands are doing smaller production runs (this is quite obvious) and I believe factories would charge more per figure the smaller the runs get.

There have been a few posts I could comment on individually but will cover them here.

a) Gary, who said "who 2 or 3 years ago spent between $400 & $500 a month on K&C to a person that spends about $200 a year (My note : prior to P announcement). Reading all this about the "P" line of figures has just about sealed the deal." Would I be correct in saying you retired within the last two to three years ? If so I think this might explain why you no longer spend such large amounts.

b) Scott (Arnhem mad) who said he is 19 and " how does one expect the hobby to thrive among young people when they'd need to save up for 5 years before buying one figure?". My apologies Scott as young collectors are to be encouraged but I think your comment is a slight exaggeration based on your previous postings about your purchases. I know you do not like the price rises but the fact you can collect such items at 19 suggests to me you have more excess funds than the great majority of 19 year olds. I doubt there are many on this forum who were collecting metal figures at 19.

c) Mitch, there seem to be a few members down here (not quite 37^&grin) who are quite keen to see examples of your expert figure painting.

I know Andy will know and have met quite a few forum members who are now making negative comments about pricing and say they will not buy the figures etc. He will not find it much fun to read them. However I am pretty sure Andy is doing what he thinks is in the best interests of his business and the continued employment of his staff. No doubt some will jump on this comment as somehow being insensitive to their requirement that Andy price his products to their particular budget. The reality is for Andy it is a serious business whereas for collectors it is a hobby. He has more to lose than anybody if he has got it wrong.

As a dealer I hope Andy has got it right and time will tell.
Regards
Brett
 
The Military Workshop said:
Hi Guys,
Has been an interesting few days of comments on price so I thought I would make mine (make a coffee now !). I now count 5 threads on the Arnhem figure prices. Whilst I do not agree with every point I thought CFM's post was a good one which is why I am posting in this thread.

Below is part of Stephen Chongs report from Andy's comments from the recent West Coast show :
"Unfortunately, costs keep increasing. Despite having more than 1.4 billion people, there is actually a labor shortage in China with few young people willing to do low tech jobs like painting figures. K&C will be celebrating its 30th anniversary, having started in 1983. It started producing in China in 1988. Around that time, a painter earned US$200 to $300 per month and factories had 400 or more painters working double shifts. Now, K&C's biggest factory only has 50 to 60 painters each earning 3 to 4 times more. There has also been drastic increases in raw material and transportation costs (compare cost of gasoline in 1980's to now. But there has also been an increase in quality and variety coupled with customers becoming more demanding".

There were some other interesting comments in that talk that may be more relevant now (worth a look).

Chris Tay just mentioned China costs and I think he would have more knowledge of this than most. I know from talking to my TS suppliers they are constantly talking about changing factories, looking for new ones etc. Obviously they are looking for better value / quality and trying to keep prices down. Some may recall K&C rejecting production runs in the past (ie. some MK's and the larger landing craft). I hope he wont mind me saying but two years ago John Jenkins told me he had personally stood outside a factory with a banner enticing workers with higher pay. As I understand it good painters are highly sought after.

Mid last year I visited Hong Kong and I kept a newspaper supplement on manufacturing in China. There were numerous examples of businessmen running big factories complaining about constant increases in wages and regulations. One I remember was a major baseball cap producer and the business was moving to Bangladesh to escape the constant rises (good luck with the floods and cyclones). Another who had had 10,000 workers in his early years was lamenting the fact he was no longer making good profit and was pretty much running the factory to pay the staff. The common thread was the good old days of cheap China labour had gone. As Chris says Chinese worker pay and benefits are rising far faster than in the western world of the TS collector.

As a K&C dealer my business has a significant interest in K&C making good decisions in such matters as selection/series, figure poses and pricing etc. I remember thinking what was Andy doing when he brought out the Jesus series but some of those figures went on to become very good sellers. My business is "cushioned" by the fact I sell other brands (ie. CS, TG, JJ and BR) and have another totally different side of my business (medals and framing).

My reaction to the price jump of Arnhem and the Indians was also one of surprise as it was more of a rise than normal. I can appreciate the price rises are not welcome by collectors but take a moment to consider it from the other side. For the collector this is a luxury hobby so really the choice is about whether or not you will buy a metal soldier that may have crossed your price level. For Andy/K&C this is a business that affects his livelihood and those of his staff and indirectly the factories and his dealers. He has a lot more riding on this than any collector so I think it safe to assume he gave considerable thought to this pricing change knowing that it would not be popular.

Having dealt with Andy for over 10 years and had many conversations with him I know price has always been an important consideration. From my knowledge he works on a certain percentage on top of the factory price. Whether or not the Arnhem and Indian figures are a significant change in detail I cant comment on at this stage but I am sure the percentage is the same. However here is another way to compare the Armhem figures. Try to imagine going into a TS shop for the first time (ie. never seen a TS before) and you see the Arnhem figures and the two new US Medic sets (2 for $85 so $42.50 each). I think it is clear that the Arnhem figures would require more painting time and hence cost more. On that comparison the $55 is not unreasonable if compared to the Medics.

Some other points to consider. The variety of product now across various brands, historical periods and price points is huge (and lets not forget the UK cottage guys:wink2:). I would like to think I have a good variety of stock across the brands I stock but I think, as a dealer, there is too much variety available. Whilst this may seem good for the collector it may not be as good as you think. Whilst my view might be slightly different to a USA dealer I am sure all dealers are finding there are some series that hardly sell at all. In some cases there have been items I simply did not get in and had no orders for. For a brand that means their successful series has to cover any series that does not sell as expected. A knock on effect of this is that brands are doing smaller production runs (this is quite obvious) and I believe factories would charge more per figure the smaller the runs get.

There have been a few posts I could comment on individually but will cover them here.

a) Gary, who said "who 2 or 3 years ago spent between $400 & $500 a month on K&C to a person that spends about $200 a year (My note : prior to P announcement). Reading all this about the "P" line of figures has just about sealed the deal." Would I be correct in saying you retired within the last two to three years ? If so I think this might explain why you no longer spend such large amounts.

b) Scott (Arnhem mad) who said he is 19 and " how does one expect the hobby to thrive among young people when they'd need to save up for 5 years before buying one figure?". My apologies Scott as young collectors are to be encouraged but I think your comment is a slight exaggeration based on your previous postings about your purchases. I know you do not like the price rises but the fact you can collect such items at 19 suggests to me you have more excess funds than the great majority of 19 year olds. I doubt there are many on this forum who were collecting metal figures at 19.

c) Mitch, there seem to be a few members down here (not quite 37^&grin) who are quite keen to see examples of your expert figure painting.

I know Andy will know and have met quite a few forum members who are now making negative comments about pricing and say they will not buy the figures etc. He will not find it much fun to read them. However I am pretty sure Andy is doing what he thinks is in the best interests of his business and the continued employment of his staff. No doubt some will jump on this comment as somehow being insensitive to their requirement that Andy price his products to their particular budget. The reality is for Andy it is a serious business whereas for collectors it is a hobby. He has more to lose than anybody if he has got it wrong.

As a dealer I hope Andy has got it right and time will tell.
Regards
Brett
Click to expand...
Thank you for your summary.......covers a lot of ground and perhaps explains why things are getting dearer and dearer.....I do not collect K&C so I cannot comment ...but I do read different threads and it has struck me Andy has done many good things for this hobby over the years..including supplying TS as requested by many people.......he also has to look after many employee's....people who earn a wage like the rest of us and have families......mortgage's etc......he aint JC.... I dont think it would hurt many forum members to ponder over it for awhile and think of the many problems he is facing and think what they would do in his place...give him a fair go........I dont think he puts up prices for the fun of it......anyway that is my two cents worth....TomB
 
I think some focus is being lost. That is a detailed summary of the industry by Brett. But the issue isn't the rapid rise of figure prices or painter's wages. The issue is the K&C move to a (P) level of quality and price, whether the (P) level is worth the extra money, whether a (P) level is even wanted by K&C collectors, and finally how a (P) level will affect K&C collectors going forward. The move to add a (P) level is a major change for K&C collectors and I wonder if this will be like the "new Coke" strategy was to the loyal base of Coca Cola customers?

Terry
 
I agree with Terry on this and its a little unnecessary to reiterate the Chinese wage demands and costs again as it has little bearing on this issue. Its not down to price rises that these figures are priced as they are and, most of the issues are about the lack of noticeable difference from the figures to recent ones of equally as good detail in relation to the higher charge.

Another point Brett made which shows he is looking at this to support K&C is that when you say lets compare a MG camo figure with a US medic its what you call apples and oranges on here. If you are going to try an evaluate painting difficulty at least speak with someone who knows about this. one is camo and one is plain olive drab the point raised by a few were that the facial detail blending, shading and actual facial detail is as good on the medics and other recent figures as the new P MG.

Comparing camo would have been better if you had at least compared German camo which, is universally acknowledged as the most difficult type of pattern to paint. This would mean the new better facial details on recent German camo figures and the combination of camo patterns would, by your statement, mean they should cost more than the new Arnhem figures but, they do not so, pricing for these constantly poor Chinese we hear about really is not valid here.

Terry hits what the issue is succinctly for a lot of people and, add whether there actually is a noticeable difference with the newer figures and not comparing them to MG releases from 2007/8 which, I await with baited breath that some will do this as proof they are better. I would have expected with the way K&C has progressed since 2007 that the new MG figures would have been better and was always a bit concerned improvements would make new and older not blend anyway.

The crux is the figures are nicely painted but, for me, I don't see the extra work for the cost or, the title. On an aesthetic point we could already begin to say that if these are actually a P set and a higher level why are there still silver dots on the end of binoculars there are techniques to replicate lenses in painting? That's just one point we could talk eyes etc but, it shows what should be addressed if one decides to take painting to another level.

I don't think anyone is actually having a go at K&C here they are just showing concerns at price and for a lot not being able to distinguish the new figures already at production and this apparent step up.

If someone wants to tell me what is the significant upgrade compared to other recent and what I considered well painted figures from K&C then I would welcome the information.
Mitch
 
TomB said:
Thank you for your summary.......covers a lot of ground and perhaps explains why things are getting dearer and dearer.....I do not collect K&C so I cannot comment ...but I do read different threads and it has struck me Andy has done many good things for this hobby over the years..including supplying TS as requested by many people.......he also has to look after many employee's....people who earn a wage like the rest of us and have families......mortgage's etc......he aint JC.... I dont think it would hurt many forum members to ponder over it for awhile and think of the many problems he is facing and think what they would do in his place...give him a fair go........I dont think he puts up prices for the fun of it......anyway that is my two cents worth....TomB
Click to expand...

Well said Tom. I am disappointed about the price increases but i do understand the difficulties that Andy faces in this industry. As you may be aware, i collect K&C and i have also met Andy several times and im sure he would have hated to increase the prices on the new figures. But as Brett and Chris Tay have pointed out, he is running a business which is his bread and butter and he is facing huge price increases in the labour market (finding it hard to keep his skilled workers and having to pay the workers that he has a lot more so they stay) as well as the dramatic price increases in raw materials, transportation costs and lower production runs which also increases the cost of a figure or a vehicle. From a business point of view, if you order larger quantities then naturally the price will be better but if you order less quantities then the cost goes up. I have worked in procurement for over 10 years and it was the same in my business, i got a better price for larger quantities of goods that i ordered and or got manufactured and a not so good of a price for a smaller quantity of goods. These factors along with the increase in detail and quality of the product make it more costly to produce Toy Soldiers. I am only an armchair collector making a statement about why the prices have gone up but from my perspective on things that happen in life, it is usually not just "one thing" that causes something to happen or in this case, the painting on the figures that has caused the price increases, but a multiple number of factors that has caused the prices to increase. It is sad that the price increases are causing distress to collectors and turning some collectors away, but you have to look at the bigger picture and realise that Andy is running a business and a business has to make a profit to be viable.

Tom
 
TomNT said:
Well said Tom. I am disappointed about the price increases but i do understand the difficulties that Andy faces in this industry. As you may be aware, i collect K&C and i have also met Andy several times and im sure he would have hated to increase the prices on the new figures. But as Brett and Chris Tay have pointed out, he is running a business which is his bread and butter and he is facing huge price increases in the labour market (finding it hard to keep his skilled workers and having to pay the workers that he has a lot more so they stay) as well as the dramatic price increases in raw materials, transportation costs and lower production runs which also increases the cost of a figure or a vehicle. From a business point of view, if you order larger quantities then naturally the price will be better but if you order less quantities then the cost goes up. I have worked in procurement for over 10 years and it was the same in my business, i got a better price for larger quantities of goods that i ordered and or got manufactured and a not so good of a price for a smaller quantity of goods. These factors along with the increase in detail and quality of the product make it more costly to produce Toy Soldiers. I am only an armchair collector making a statement about why the prices have gone up but from my perspective on things that happen in life, it is usually not just "one thing" that causes something to happen or in this case, the painting on the figures that has caused the price increases, but a multiple number of factors that has caused the prices to increase. It is sad that the price increases are causing distress to collectors and turning some collectors away, but you have to look at the bigger picture and realise that Andy is running a business and a business has to make a profit to be viable.

Tom
Click to expand...

Well put and I agree with all of it. But as for relevance, are you making the argument that in order for K&C to stay profitable, they need to produce (P) level figures? I don't think you are. So just how is making a profit and (P) tied together.
Terry
 
This is not directed at everyone!
PEOPLE, what don,t you get? We all know about labor cost and all those things, that is not the crux of this. It is about the simple fact that no matter what the reason, toy soldiers are being priced out of the common mans market.
Did someone say "poor Andy". Why should anyone feel sorry for him? He is a businessman, period.
Gary
 
A constant theme is the previous posts is the raising cost of doing business in China. As a collector, I am wondering how seriously manufacturers are wedded to China. Given the unemployment rates Europe, e.g.,Spain and parts of the United States, is it not possible to shift some production to these locations? For example, Kronprinz toy soldiers are made and painted in Spain. The soldiers look good and the price point, $32.00 is fine.
Just a thought.
Benjamin
 
The Military Workshop said:
Hi Guys,
Has been an interesting few days of comments on price so I thought I would make mine (make a coffee now !). I now count 5 threads on the Arnhem figure prices. Whilst I do not agree with every point I thought CFM's post was a good one which is why I am posting in this thread.

Below is part of Stephen Chongs report from Andy's comments from the recent West Coast show :
"Unfortunately, costs keep increasing. Despite having more than 1.4 billion people, there is actually a labor shortage in China with few young people willing to do low tech jobs like painting figures. K&C will be celebrating its 30th anniversary, having started in 1983. It started producing in China in 1988. Around that time, a painter earned US$200 to $300 per month and factories had 400 or more painters working double shifts. Now, K&C's biggest factory only has 50 to 60 painters each earning 3 to 4 times more. There has also been drastic increases in raw material and transportation costs (compare cost of gasoline in 1980's to now. But there has also been an increase in quality and variety coupled with customers becoming more demanding".

There were some other interesting comments in that talk that may be more relevant now (worth a look).

Chris Tay just mentioned China costs and I think he would have more knowledge of this than most. I know from talking to my TS suppliers they are constantly talking about changing factories, looking for new ones etc. Obviously they are looking for better value / quality and trying to keep prices down. Some may recall K&C rejecting production runs in the past (ie. some MK's and the larger landing craft). I hope he wont mind me saying but two years ago John Jenkins told me he had personally stood outside a factory with a banner enticing workers with higher pay. As I understand it good painters are highly sought after.

Mid last year I visited Hong Kong and I kept a newspaper supplement on manufacturing in China. There were numerous examples of businessmen running big factories complaining about constant increases in wages and regulations. One I remember was a major baseball cap producer and the business was moving to Bangladesh to escape the constant rises (good luck with the floods and cyclones). Another who had had 10,000 workers in his early years was lamenting the fact he was no longer making good profit and was pretty much running the factory to pay the staff. The common thread was the good old days of cheap China labour had gone. As Chris says Chinese worker pay and benefits are rising far faster than in the western world of the TS collector.

As a K&C dealer my business has a significant interest in K&C making good decisions in such matters as selection/series, figure poses and pricing etc. I remember thinking what was Andy doing when he brought out the Jesus series but some of those figures went on to become very good sellers. My business is "cushioned" by the fact I sell other brands (ie. CS, TG, JJ and BR) and have another totally different side of my business (medals and framing).

My reaction to the price jump of Arnhem and the Indians was also one of surprise as it was more of a rise than normal. I can appreciate the price rises are not welcome by collectors but take a moment to consider it from the other side. For the collector this is a luxury hobby so really the choice is about whether or not you will buy a metal soldier that may have crossed your price level. For Andy/K&C this is a business that affects his livelihood and those of his staff and indirectly the factories and his dealers. He has a lot more riding on this than any collector so I think it safe to assume he gave considerable thought to this pricing change knowing that it would not be popular.

Having dealt with Andy for over 10 years and had many conversations with him I know price has always been an important consideration. From my knowledge he works on a certain percentage on top of the factory price. Whether or not the Arnhem and Indian figures are a significant change in detail I cant comment on at this stage but I am sure the percentage is the same. However here is another way to compare the Armhem figures. Try to imagine going into a TS shop for the first time (ie. never seen a TS before) and you see the Arnhem figures and the two new US Medic sets (2 for $85 so $42.50 each). I think it is clear that the Arnhem figures would require more painting time and hence cost more. On that comparison the $55 is not unreasonable if compared to the Medics.

Some other points to consider. The variety of product now across various brands, historical periods and price points is huge (and lets not forget the UK cottage guys:wink2:). I would like to think I have a good variety of stock across the brands I stock but I think, as a dealer, there is too much variety available. Whilst this may seem good for the collector it may not be as good as you think. Whilst my view might be slightly different to a USA dealer I am sure all dealers are finding there are some series that hardly sell at all. In some cases there have been items I simply did not get in and had no orders for. For a brand that means their successful series has to cover any series that does not sell as expected. A knock on effect of this is that brands are doing smaller production runs (this is quite obvious) and I believe factories would charge more per figure the smaller the runs get.

There have been a few posts I could comment on individually but will cover them here.

a) Gary, who said "who 2 or 3 years ago spent between $400 & $500 a month on K&C to a person that spends about $200 a year (My note : prior to P announcement). Reading all this about the "P" line of figures has just about sealed the deal." Would I be correct in saying you retired within the last two to three years ? If so I think this might explain why you no longer spend such large amounts.

b) Scott (Arnhem mad) who said he is 19 and " how does one expect the hobby to thrive among young people when they'd need to save up for 5 years before buying one figure?". My apologies Scott as young collectors are to be encouraged but I think your comment is a slight exaggeration based on your previous postings about your purchases. I know you do not like the price rises but the fact you can collect such items at 19 suggests to me you have more excess funds than the great majority of 19 year olds. I doubt there are many on this forum who were collecting metal figures at 19.

c) Mitch, there seem to be a few members down here (not quite 37^&grin) who are quite keen to see examples of your expert figure painting.

I know Andy will know and have met quite a few forum members who are now making negative comments about pricing and say they will not buy the figures etc. He will not find it much fun to read them. However I am pretty sure Andy is doing what he thinks is in the best interests of his business and the continued employment of his staff. No doubt some will jump on this comment as somehow being insensitive to their requirement that Andy price his products to their particular budget. The reality is for Andy it is a serious business whereas for collectors it is a hobby. He has more to lose than anybody if he has got it wrong.

As a dealer I hope Andy has got it right and time will tell.
Regards
Brett
Click to expand...

I've been collecting since I was 7. I do not spend my wages or any money I come into on booze, drugs or anything else and this allows me to indulge in collecting which I would much rather do. However £55 for a figure has past the line for figure prices. You say my past postings suggests to you that I may have more excess finds than other 19 year olds. That maybe because many other 19 year olds haven't been working since they were 15 whilst still being in school.

I am now a Modern apprentice in the education area of a council. I am an apprentice nursery teacher and earn about £7.000 a year. As I am a male in a predomenantly female area of work I have been told (unnoficially) that it is very likely that once my apprenticeship is up I have a rather good chance of getting a job as I am a male (common sense really). I have had my fill of taunts from former school friends and others about the fact I am a male in a nursery enviroment, many others who have done my course who have also been male have failed to complete their course due to this or other reasons. Many of my schoolmates are the same age, or older, or slightly younger than I (some still in school). A large amount of people I went to school with who were in my year or older are either in college or uni, few are in work, their excuse: 'There is no work!:rolleyes2:

My best friend started work last year with one of many intentions of buying some figures, however due to the price increase he says there is no way when he could do that when he could go and and buy a pair of designer jeans, a t-shirt and shoes for the price of a single figure?

The idea of getting younger people involvedin this hobby is a good one as it needs younger people such as myself to show an interest, however the prices need to stop rising as this is chasing any younger collectors (including myself) and older and much wiser collectors away.

A rise of say £35 -£40 a figure maintained over a five year period would be a steady and fair, maybe even undisputed rise in prices, however to go to that in the space of about half a year...raises the question of just what are we paying for and what of whatever we pay goes elsewhere...?

Scott

A hardworking young man and a proud collector
 
Scott

A hardworking young man and a proud collector[/QUOTE]

When the price is right.



Also lets not forget, Andy only produced this range as he said the response to the discontinuation of the MG range was overwhelming, so in knowing the large amount of collectors waiting for arnhem, surely Andy would have known that the figures he should have went for should have been related to the other figures, in colour and price?

That's one of the things that gets me!!!!!
 
I stopped collecting K&C when the price hit $42 US/figure.
 
Phantom Warrior said:
I think some focus is being lost. That is a detailed summary of the industry by Brett. But the issue isn't the rapid rise of figure prices or painter's wages. The issue is the K&C move to a (P) level of quality and price, whether the (P) level is worth the extra money, whether a (P) level is even wanted by K&C collectors, and finally how a (P) level will affect K&C collectors going forward. The move to add a (P) level is a major change for K&C collectors and I wonder if this will be like the "new Coke" strategy was to the loyal base of Coca Cola customers?

Terry
Click to expand...
You make a very good point ...forgetting the issue of price etc...the P range is a new approach by K&C.....they are still marketing the MG as a standard range..are they not ?..........do you still have a choice between the Standard range and the P range ? If the new release is P range only then there certainly is a lot to complain about...but if you have a choice between two qualities in a single figure I reckon the choice is up to you......if you want the best you have to pay for it.....I can buy a pretty good PC for $1200...but I am a Flight Sim nut and I want smooth flowing top class performance from the game..there fore I have to have a fast PC with a top end graphic card,,,,I have to pay extra for that.....but unfortunately for TS collectors their cost have gone up where as the cost of PC's.\, TV's etc have come down....K&C have made a bold choice with the P thingo but I dont think all their price's are going to follow the P idea ....they have more nouse than that....cheers TomB
 
TomB said:
You make a very good point ...forgetting the issue of price etc...the P range is a new approach by K&C.....they are still marketing the MG as a standard range..are they not ?..........do you still have a choice between the Standard range and the P range ? If the new release is P range only then there certainly is a lot to complain about...but if you have a choice between two qualities in a single figure I reckon the choice is up to you......if you want the best you have to pay for it.....I can buy a pretty good PC for $1200...but I am a Flight Sim nut and I want smooth flowing top class performance from the game..there fore I have to have a fast PC with a top end graphic card,,,,I have to pay extra for that.....but unfortunately for TS collectors their cost have gone up where as the cost of PC's.\, TV's etc have come down....K&C have made a bold choice with the P thingo but I dont think all their price's are going to follow the P idea ....they have more nouse than that....cheers TomB
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We don't know the answer to whether some figures in a range will be (P) only and if so, what proportion of a range will be (P). I would be surprised if the same figure was made *** (P) and as a regular figure too. The introduction of (P) adds a wild card factor to collecting a range like Arnhem where many of the figures are tied to historic soldiers and can't be substituted for.

Terry
 
As mentioned, the "P" looks like a new segment. The past year had seen much experimentation with series covering other subjects. Any company in a leadership position will not be resting on its laurels. They are always looking for ways to increase revenues via selling more, selling new lines, etc. Will it make us feel any better if this "P" had been launched under a different brand? In the end, whether "P" succeeds commercially, we all decide when it hits the shops. It may fail. It may also be a runaway success. Or maybe it makes better sense for a company to sell less qty at a better profit given manpower issues. The production of toy soldier figures is not as scalable as doubling the production of iPhones, tablets or of making say Hasbro, Toy Biz Marvel toys. Look at the length of time to see FL figures being restocked. What if some collectors switch to FL? Is this targeted to draw them back?


Would you now buy a new figure that is termed King n Country lite, has less details and cost cheap? Or will you then call it crap and a loss of direction. The key here is there will always be a diversity of opinions here.

All said, the regular line is not disappearing. So, I see a lot of discussions going out of point as well.
The pain felt here is the MG collector are being "P" market tested. This includes me. And of course whether the price increase justifies the perceived quality. This can only be seen in the aftermath when the figures arrive at the shops. So, if a "P" line and standard line on the same sculpt is offered at two price points, what would you buy?

But, the fallacy of it all is that if this "P" product line fails and it becomes a limited run, some of us will be capitalizing on its rarity in the secondary market. Yes, this point I am making may be out of point. But, if the manufacturer makes the money, it is a sin. But, if it gets picked on the secondary market at even higher price, is it ok? By then, it becomes highly sought after. And then we request Andy to bring the line back. See the paradox. We can be a fickle lot as well.

I think it is highly possible that production shifts around to other countries and I hope it shifts. The mention of China is not really out of context. It is more to say that this whole issue of cost that some of you put up is not going to get any better even for the regular line. Please take it in this context. It is very real.

Finally, maybe one day, high quality 3D color printing becomes such a reality and everything is cheap and good. A toy soldier only needs to get printed and you buy the design from Andy and you print it at home. You pay and engage Mitch to do an online touchup. But, by then, will this collection have lost it charm altogether? Or maybe it becomes an analog versus digital thing?

Chris
 
desk11desk12 said:
blowtorch, that's exactly the way to do it imo. Create 2 price points in the market. You're "bread & butter" line that made you dominate and the premium line to heads up with the aeroart and fl crowd.

My monthly budget has actually gone done because what's the use? Prices keep going up at faster pace than quality imo.

It's funny, i can find room to buy four $30 figures and store them in my bulging ts closets, but cannot for two $55+ figures. Am i alone?

Kc's earned the top spot in the market and yet it's left me in the dust with few exceptions. Andy and laura are smart business people.
They've probably calculated that total revenue goes up despite the price increases because there's plenty of room for another ts player in that class.

I'm not mad, i'm amazed. I guess the step is ours,

carlos
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i guess there are enough people who will buy at any price and with the economic situation around the world maybe kc figures they can sell less soldiers with more markup to the people that are going to buy no matter what than trying to sell more figures with less markup to many different people who 's budgets might be getting tighter because of the economy. Either way its just sad
 
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