Return From Elba (2 Viewers)

Louis,'torn to shreds on the squares' he's going to go mad now!.

But to be serious its a very good point.How could Napoleon possibly the greatest of Generals miss that?.He must have despaired seeing his beloved cavalry be destroyed like that.It must rank in cock ups alongside Goering switching attacking airfields to attacking London.

Rob
 
HEHEHEHEHE :D

I thought for sure we would have a british reaction to that statement - I guess the fearful sight of our FRENCH HEAVY CALVARY coming at them is too much for the lads - what do you think KV?

I think that the real reason Wellington won was that he had more Drunk Irishmen than did Napoleon!
 
Louis,'torn to shreds on the squares' he's going to go mad now!.

But to be serious its a very good point.How could Napoleon possibly the greatest of Generals miss that?.He must have despaired seeing his beloved cavalry be destroyed like that.It must rank in cock ups alongside Goering switching attacking airfields to attacking London.

Rob

Hi Rob.

It was more Ney's fault than Napoleon's really, this is taken from the Waterloo Campaign thread I posted under the Historical Discussion Forum a while back.

Napoleon ordered Ney to capture La Haye Sante, considering the farm to be the key to the Allied position. Ney launched this assault with two battalions he found to hand and during the operation formed the view that the Allied army was withdrawing. It is likely that the movements he saw were casualties or prisoners moving to the rear.
It was on this impetuous assumption that Ney launched the massive cavalry attack on the Allied line. Initially the attacking force was to be Milhaud’s Cavalry Corps of Cuirassiers.
Before the French could reach the Allied line the infantry formed squares interlaced with artillery batteries. The French cuirassiers flowed around the squares but were unable to penetrate them.
During the next three hours some twelve cavalry attacks were made up to the ridge and back. Napoleon while deprecating the initial attack as premature felt bound to commit increasing numbers of cavalry to support the assault.
At around 5.30pm Ney launched the final cavalry assault. There were too many regiments, fresh mingled with exhausted. The attack failed yet again.

So it would seem that you need to buy a lot of the new French Cuirassiers when they come out.

Jeff
 
Hi Rob.

It was more Ney's fault than Napoleon's really, this is taken from the Waterloo Campaign thread I posted under the Historical Discussion Forum a while back.

Napoleon ordered Ney to capture La Haye Sante, considering the farm to be the key to the Allied position. Ney launched this assault with two battalions he found to hand and during the operation formed the view that the Allied army was withdrawing. It is likely that the movements he saw were casualties or prisoners moving to the rear.
It was on this impetuous assumption that Ney launched the massive cavalry attack on the Allied line. Initially the attacking force was to be Milhaud’s Cavalry Corps of Cuirassiers.
Before the French could reach the Allied line the infantry formed squares interlaced with artillery batteries. The French cuirassiers flowed around the squares but were unable to penetrate them.
During the next three hours some twelve cavalry attacks were made up to the ridge and back. Napoleon while deprecating the initial attack as premature felt bound to commit increasing numbers of cavalry to support the assault.
At around 5.30pm Ney launched the final cavalry assault. There were too many regiments, fresh mingled with exhausted. The attack failed yet again.

So it would seem that you need to buy a lot of the new French Cuirassiers when they come out.

Jeff

Thank you Jeff thats a very good explanation of events.The conditions in those squares must have been awful during those three hours.Don't you think that whatever people think of the British Empire/history,time and again the bravery and discipline of the British soldier was heroic.From the squares at Waterloo to the barricades of Rorkes drift to the charge of the light brigade they always did what was asked of them.And especially at Waterloo.I know i joke with Ron all the time but the French cavalry were some of the best in the world,and to stand there and take twelve charges must have needed b**** of steel.

You are right i'm going to need lots of cavalry!

Rob
 
I have returned.

I see in my absence the battle has raged on - let us release the artillery...:eek: :eek:

Actually, It is a sad fact that the British Squares were firm throughout the afternoon at Waterloo. But, do not blame Napoleon for this Calvary disaster - It was Ney who had been chomping at the bit to attack the British - who made the mistake as Jeff said of seeing a retreating British line - instead of a defensive position beyond the ridge - that made that terrible order to launch the Calvary attack.

Ney - was so wild for victory that after they released that the British had set up squares - he launched three more attacks before Napoleon had even knew what the situation was on the battlefield. Ney did not use artillery or infantry to break the squares - thus a disaster in the making.

By the time Napoleon had recovered from his bout of illness and saw what Ney had done - he was upset - but the deed had been done - nothing left except try a overwhelming Calavery force as a last ditch effort - that failed as well. This is the tie when the old guard was put in - alittle too late to take advantage of the last ditch effort of the calvary.

It was Ney (the bravest of the brave who turned into the Dumbest of the dumb) that lost it for Napoleon at Waterloo.
 
Nicely put Ron,nicely put.I guess you will always hate us Brits for defeating Napoleon,but i will happily concede what a very,very talented practitioner of war Napoleon was.

Rob
 
Nicely put Ron,nicely put.I guess you will always hate us Brits for defeating Napoleon,but i will happily concede what a very,very talented practitioner of war Napoleon was.

Rob

Rob

I dont hate the brits - you gave us Fish and Chips :)
 
I,ve read that it was not Ney at all that started those failed cavalry attacks but jumpy junior officers seeing the british retire to the other side of the slop of the hill to take cover from an artillary bombardment and the jumpy officers mistaking this for a british retreat started their troops forward.

Ney never had the chance to tell his side of the story having been shot shortly after the battle by a firing squad and spent munch of the time between then tring to get out of france and even after he was captured his guards offered to let him go twice but, he refused having given his word that he would not try and escape. Ney WAS the bravest of the brave and in those waterloo cavalry attacks he led from the front and had 5 horses shot from under him just in those attacks never mind getting into his heroic rearguard defence of the retreat from russia.

As for the attacks, If ney had not planned them he would have not had infantry and artillary support ready for an attack that he did not know was about to happen but the follow up attacks should have been better organized and some of the latter attacks did have artillary support and very many british died from it. After the battle you could still see where the squares were from all the dead bodies still lying in the sqaure formations.

As for what louis suggested about just bringing up cavalry with horse artillary and then just pounding the square with artillary after the cavalry back off,and just keep doing this supper simple tactic. This was done in the napoleonic era and thats why you hold reserves in war and not commit all your troops at once!!! and when this does happen the british would just bring in there cavalry reserve and chace off the french cavalry and also cut up the gunners while they were at it!!!:p If it were that simple i,m sure it would have been done by both sides.
 
I,ve read that it was not Ney at all that started those failed cavalry attacks but jumpy junior officers seeing the british retire to the other side of the slop of the hill to take cover from an artillary bombardment and the jumpy officers mistaking this for a british retreat started their troops forward.

Ney never had the chance to tell his side of the story having been shot shortly after the battle by a firing squad and spent munch of the time between then tring to get out of france and even after he was captured his guards offered to let him go twice but, he refused having given his word that he would not try and escape. Ney WAS the bravest of the brave and in those waterloo cavalry attacks he led from the front and had 5 horses shot from under him just in those attacks never mind getting into his heroic rearguard defence of the retreat from russia.

As for the attacks, If ney had not planned them he would have not had infantry and artillary support ready for an attack that he did not know was about to happen but the follow up attacks should have been better organized and some of the latter attacks did have artillary support and very many british died from it. After the battle you could still see where the squares were from all the dead bodies still lying in the sqaure formations.

As for what louis suggested about just bringing up cavalry with horse artillary and then just pounding the square with artillary after the cavalry back off,and just keep doing this supper simple tactic. This was done in the napoleonic era and thats why you hold reserves in war and not commit all your troops at once!!! and when this does happen the british would just bring in there cavalry reserve and chace off the french cavalry and also cut up the gunners while they were at it!!!:p If it were that simple i,m sure it would have been done by both sides.

Yes, but if the British brought out their Cavalry, it would have had to fight the French guns and the French Cavalry, not a pleasant task. This tactic was used very often by knowledgable officers in other Napoleonic style campaigns, such as the Mexican/American War. The simple fact of the matter is that the answer to infantry forming square was artillery (just as the answer to infantry in skirmish lines was cavalry), which is why infantry could only form square under cover of its own artillery. Indeed, the French failed to use this tactic to their chagrin in the Penninsular Campaign, when Wellington made an uncharacteristic mistake and sent his light division out beyond the range of artillery cover, but the French Marshall (I think Soult) attacked with Cavalry unsupported by horse artillery. Needless to say, the light division held square, and managed to retreat safely to the cover of the British guns.
 
I think that it would be a mess to deal with.

If you are in a line and you see cavalry you form square. But then they fire on you with artillery and chop you up so back to line you go. But then back comes the cavalry and so , and so on and so on...........monotonous isn't it ?
 
Tim

I am a big fan of Ney - but, at Waterloo he was a hot head and did not handel the battle well with Napoloen off the field in his tent.

Ney - indeed was led into the first attack by junior officers who thought the british were retreating - but, after he led the first charge and realized the British were in squares - the calvary should have stopped until the rest of the army could be organized to attack the new position.

Ney - was by all accounts in the heat of the battle - demanding more horses and charging time and time again. It wasnt until Napoelon himself reappeared on the battlefield and asked "Where is my Calvary" did Ney realize he had made a major mistake.

Ron
 
The fact that the French cavalry made five consecutive charges in that instance suggests that Ney was a slow learner ;) It also makes you wonder just how clever Napoleon was because he ordered the later charges.
 
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The fact that the French cavalry made five consecute charges in that instance suggests that Ney was a slow learner ;) It also makes you wonder just how clever Napoleon was because he ordered the later charges.

OZ - I know what you mean - but, Like RE LEE at Gettysburg - Napoleon was obsessed with the center of the British Line - his judgement probally was after repeated attacks at the center - ONE LARGE ASSAULT would do the trick.

Sometimes you just scratch your head???

Ron
 
Maybe so, and the French cavalry did have some success against the Dutch units, those that hadn't run home by that stage :)
 
Great Waste of Fine French Calvary.........those guys were the bravest of the brave too.
 
Maybe so, and the French cavalry did have some success against the Dutch units, those that hadn't run home by that stage :)

Yeah , well Dutch are not the British are they.OOPSSorry Ron
Time to go watch the 300 Spartans
 
I guess hindsieght is 20/20 and were all just a bunch of arm chair generals who would probly make the prince of orange look like alexander the great!:p I,m sure once the bullets start flying and there are cannon balls are wizzing by your head and taking off the head of the guy on side of you and horse after horse is being shot from under you that your judgement and state of mind might be a bit off!:eek: :p These were large battle fields covered in smoke and confusion and you only see a small piece of a very large picture.

I think luck played a major part of the outcome of many of these battles for both sides and that holds true for wellington as well as napoleon.
 

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