show figures (1 Viewer)

[PanzerAce1944]

I think this thread has become a show in itself. We have come full circle from show figures to stukas, to the battle of Britain.

I can almost hear the jingle of the padlock key. {sm2}

 

[Mitch]

Well, if you hear the jingle then beware!! Threads have a habit of discussing varied items but, they all have relevance and, it was primarliy on show figures until you raised other issues so, you will have to address your own contribution to how this thread changed and, your reasons for that contribution.

I don't feel that there has been any animosity towards anyone on here only true facts stated. I know I have not lied nor Brett, Rob, Neil, et al nor, has they exhibited any animosity towards anyone. I therefore cannot see why there should be any mod intervention as this has clearly raised some important issues and, an interesting debate for manufacturers to possibly think about making some figures available post show. Now, whether they will do so is another matter but, if these issues are not raised then we will never see change in the hobby.
Mitch

I think this thread has become a show in itself. We have come full circle from show figures to stukas, to the battle of Britain.

I can almost hear the jingle of the padlock key. {sm2}

 

[jazzeum]

PA44,
Since you have decided to continue on the subject I am happy to oblige you.

I am not sure how my Ebay selling is helping support your argument. However for the record I am a dealer and yes I have sold on Ebay. My feedback number is 982 and I would guess about 979 have been sales. I joined in FEB 2004.

You commented :
STUKAS: I have bought Stukas one at a time and listed them up for auction. Yes....ONE AT A TIME. If the item sold on the internet, another one was "PURCHASED"
So in theory if I sold one and went back to obtain another and supplies were sold out that would have been the end of it. To be a speculator I would have had to buy
all at one time, and that did not happen. 8 obtained over a 7 week period of time. Anyone else had the same opportunity as I did over a 7 WEEK timeframe !!!!"

A look (today) at the completed Ebay Stuka sales on Ebay USA shows the following :

12 JULY $450
(sold by one of your critics who has in the past been a well known speculator - ie early TG, Figarti V2 items, K&C ltd ed Nap set, K&C Chaffee to name a few).

and the following 6 are yours (does not include your last one listed that did not sell).
13 JULY $439 1 day
14 JULY $439 1 day
15 JULY $399 1 day
26 JULY $404 1 day
3 AUG $393 3 days
16 AUG $379 5 days

Note these are the ended dates of the sales. You may recall you started a thread called Figarti Stuka photos on 14 JULY which indicated you had just received yours (and pointed out damage that was a cause of concern for others and may even have put others off buying). I guess you would be one of the first to receive one. However your Ebay sales show you listed your first one on 12 JULY. Note you sold three in three days on Ebay and your first four auctions were listed for only one day each. This suggests to me you were in a hurry to sell as many as you could as quickly as you could.

Seems to me to be speculating instead of helping a dealer move slow moving stock. Those first three sales I am guessing are during the first week when the Stukas became available. Since you have posted receipts of last two purchases why not post your first three ? Minor point but your 7 week period seems more like 5 weeks.

I think you still do not get the point about why people not happy about this. The fact is on 24 AUG you started a thread titled Should Figarti increase production numbers and mentioned it would prevent Ebay gauging. You also advised people to pre order to avoid missing out. A number of people at that point were aware you had sold multiple Stukas by then and like myself were less than impressed by the nature of your posts.

However you also commented "You better believe the source was more than happy to sell the same item to one individual week after week since NO ONE ELSE WAS BUYING THEM ." If that was the case why were you suggesting Figarti should double production numbers ? Based on what you are saying there was little demand.

Regarding the Texas Show my view is different as that show figure is handled in a different way to the dinner events. If they are available for sale at the show and there is no purchase limit imposed then good luck. However my view would be different if it turned out there were people at the show who were unable to buy one as already sold out. I am pretty sure at least two of your critics, who both sold their Stukas on Ebay soon after receiving them, would have done the same thing.

Regards
Brett

I'm not sure what those invoices prove other than an actual purchase was made. It does not give us any further insight into the actual purchases, such as whether they were reserved months in advance. The invoices are tantamount to a bill of lading, a delivery slip.

You ask us to believe the sequence of events you laid out yesterday but all along you have apparently denied that you are cvettec6 on eBay, the seller of all these Stukas, the person trying to corner the market on these Stukas Now you are admitting that you are that seller so you were not being truthful. I think it's a leap of faith to ask us to accept such a sequence of events.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I'm not sure what those invoices prove other than an actual purchase was made. It does not give us any further insight into the actual purchases, such as whether they were reserved months in advance. The invoices are tantamount to a bill of lading, a delivery slip.

You ask us to believe the sequence of events you laid out yesterday but all along you have apparently denied that you are cvettec6 on eBay, the seller of all these Stukas, the person trying to corner the market on these Stukas Now you are admitting that you are that seller so you were not being truthful. I think it's a leap of faith to ask us to accept such a sequence of events.

We can now see for very obvious reasons that no matter what you tell someone or say, they will find a reason to complain. The carrying on about who sold what and how many like a bunch of little old ladies with nothing better to do is the reason why I initially did not want to discuss the matter. Now that I include photos of individual
bills......disclaiming the speculator theory there should be nothing more to say other than I sell things on E-Bay, just like you Brad. If I recall you were the very first one
to sell your Stuka for $426.00 weren't you ????? I take my own time to tell what happened, exactly as it did and that is the end of it. Back a few weeks ago you sent
me a PM asking me if I was selling and mentioned if I was or was not how you were not going to pass judgement on me. Isn't that what you are doing right now ???
Lastly I don't have to ask anyone to believe anything, but there has been so much carrying on that I gave the facts, straight as they are. I ask that as an adult you
acknowledge this and put this to rest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If selling an item one at a time over a 2 month period is cornering the market then it appears to me it is a very easy
market to corner ???? Cheers and peace to all ...........................

 

[jazzeum]

Sorry Wayne but your credibility with me is not very high, but let's take a look at your arguments.

First, you feel that by showing invoices or packing slips, as they were, this proves that you did not buy 10 or 11 (again, I've lost count) at once but over time. This does not prove that. Alternate explanations are available. Moreover, the packing slips are blurry nor identifiable, further lessing their value as evidence for your proposition.

Second, yes, I do sell on eBay and I did sell one Stuka (broken, by the way) but I didn't sell multiples or deprive collectors of the opportunity to buy multiple Stukas at retail.

Third, yes, you're right, I said I would not pass judgment. However, the more I learned about this, the larger my distaste became.

Lastly, I acknowledge that you gave your version of the facts in the prior post.

However, on one thing we can agree, let's lay it to rest. You've said your piece and I've said mine and there's not much more to say about this matter.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Sorry Wayne but your credibility with me is not very high, but let's take a look at your arguments.

First, you feel that by showing invoices or packing slips, as they were, this proves that you did not buy 10 or 11 (again, I've lost count) at once but over time. This does not prove that. Alternate explanations are available. Moreover, the packing slips are blurry nor identifiable, further lessing their value as evidence for your proposition.

Second, yes, I do sell on eBay and I did sell one Stuka (broken, by the way) but I didn't sell multiples or deprive collectors of the opportunity to buy multiple Stukas at retail.

Third, yes, you're right, I said I would not pass judgment. However, the more I learned about this, the larger my distaste became.

Lastly, I acknowledge that you gave your version of the facts in the prior post.

However, on one thing we can agree, let's lay it to rest. You've said your piece and I've said mine and there's not much more to say about this matter.

Here we go, much clearer. Now I still don't buy the depriving collectors scenario that you imply as these items Sat, Sat, and sat for 2 months. So again I will
restate the fact that I deprived no one of nothing. If anything I found some planes that others now have that may not have been discovered. So in actuality I
found 8 planes for collectors who did not have one and were not able to obtain the item. In addition when you factor in the 9% E-Bay sellers fees and PAYPAL fees, and
9% fees on shipping, a meager $60.00 - $80.00 per plane is not fleecing anyone. If you want to see some fleecing there are figure sets on E-Bay right now
where the seller is asking thousands....yes thousands of dollars. I guess that seller is a Great American ??? My meager $60.00-$80.00 a piece extra margin
for my efforts of doing the leg work to track down a hard to find item seems to be the news of the day with many people. Be rest assured that the next limited
edition item that winds up on E-Bay, I will be sure to make the info known to all. Like the old saying goes........Sauce for the Goose !!!!! ^&cool

 

[jules118]

Guys...

We all know that there are some decent figures presented at shows from K&C and a few others. These are nice items meant to give the collector a little something special as a freebie or, to purchase on their visit.

What I would like to know is do people agree or not that perhaps K&C could sell these later from their store or from other dealers around the world in a run to collectors? if not, should they ensure that attendee's only get one figure either as a gift or, are allowed to buy only one. At least it would help stop these wonderful people who then sell them on for as much as they can. although I know it would not stop them completely it would curtail their actions.

I would think this would be a good idea. firstly, it would certainly sell after seeing some of the figures and it would also stop the speculators from selling at really ridiculous prices that you see either before the show has actually ended or, a few months later for over $100 per figure.

As the Chicago show draws close and show figures presumably will be released I know that I would rather give the manufacturer or a dealer the money than speculators who care little about the hobby or the collectors in it.

It just seems the companies could make a decent profit sell desirable figures at a fair price to collectors and, assist in reducing the speculative nature that a few plague our hobby with. It seems a win win situation to me.
Mitch

Back to the original post. From where I sit, figuratively and literally, I think that there are some individuals who do take advantage of those who cannot get to shows and are as a result unable to obtain the special 'show' or 'dinner' figures. They have every right to charge as much as they like, justify their actions however they like... and if they can get away with it... good luck to them, but that doesn't change my opinion about some of them and their motivation. Actions speak louder than words.

Thankfully, the only limited edition 'show' figures that I have wanted so far have been from John Jenkins and on both occasions, James and Adam at JJDUK have made arrangements that have enabled me to receive these figures with other orders made at the time that the 'show' figures are available. I think that this has been a mutually beneficial arrangement as I have been able to obtain the limited edition figures that I wanted without being fleeced by third parties who were able to visit the shows AND the goodwill shown by JJDUK in looking after me means that if I want John Jenkins releases they are always my first port of call.

Whilst the detail and circumstances surrounding the JJD limited 'show' editions may be a little different to the special K&C show figures, the approach of the company to collectors who cannot simply fly to the other side of the world for a show has definitely won me over.

jules

 

[Mitch]

Why the need for displacement? you have blamed everyone and their dog (including me and repaints when everyone knows that I do them but, you have no idea what I charge or don't charge swap or don't swap for them) when the fault in this lies squarly with yourself and, the way that you choose to go about this. why be sure to tell the forum about the next limited edition to come up for sale?? You just don't seem to get it that its not about the fact your selling (nobody cares not even the old ladies you so elquently call us) though, its certainly not for the charitable aspect you now seem to be stating its the gibberish and nonsense (your words recently) that has surrounded the charade you have played to many people.

you were caught doing what a few have done before you. the hobby, for the overwhelming number of people, does not like this type of behaviour and, thats why you choose to keep it quiet. well, as quiet as you seem to do. The only difference with others that have gone down this route is that they have known when to hold their hands up and, accept that they did it and that they were in the wrong. You just want to keep trying to change what it was all about.

Brad's words of give it a rest do seem a good idea as you are making this much worse for yourself. People are now scrutinising your e-bay sales and recent posts to see what else is a miss.

Roll on chicago for some new releases!!!

Jules...

I have said right from the start I don't have a problem with people selling and, if they can make a lot of money or, what seems a lot then fine. Its as you say how they go about it. I do like some of the ways that companies deal with limited items and as you say JJD are a good example. I don't want anyone to loose the feeling of having a special figure just wondered if they should be made available as a very limited run after shows. Still feel this would be a good thing but, I can see why others think its not
Mitch
Mitch

 

[OzDigger]

Good morning gentlemen, at least it is morning here on Australia's Sunshine Coast albeit very overcast atm. Here are my Five cents worth on several issues mentioned below.

Show Figures.
It appears that whatever the official arrangement is, most collectors can presently obtain Show Figures without actually attending actual shows. I don't have any problems with this and maybe there is scope for Manufacturers/Dealers making these figures more readily available to non-attendees on an authorized rather than adhoc basis.

Speculators.
Like most collectors there were times when I thought speculators were "not nice". The ironic thing is that several years back when I started collecting King & Country I would have considered one of the members commenting here to be a speculator of the highest order, so it's interesting to see his recent anti-speculator comments. I still haven't seen a perfect definition of a speculator but I don't think anyone that collects and resells what they collect to be a speculator at all. The fact is that a number of collectors do not have the experience, knowledge, resources or the time to get hold of new products on a timely basis and would not think that an extra say 20% was an excessive cost if it secured something they were after. When you factor in the costs involved in reselling items purchased at retail prices including time wasted, packaging etc these are not big dollars guys. I would not go so far to say such reselling is purely alturistic but it's far from being a speculator in my book.

Repaints.
I still don't have a problem with people repainting sets be it for their own collection or for others. I don't care if money is exchanged or they swap sets or even exchange kisses, the fact is I just don't care, but don't be surprised if you suffer a financial loss at resale :wink2: ^&grin Which brings me to;

Personal Messages.
Mitch, your pm box is full. I found this out after I tried to send you a detailed response to your concerns about who said what about repaints, the BoB etc so I won't waste further time sending you another pm at this stage. (**Pete deleted this portion**) . However I do think the 'inbox' capacity needs increasing from 50 to at least 100. Maybe a reduction in the Monthly Posting Limit would allow for an increased pm capacity.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Matt, This paragraph hits the nail right on the head :

Speculators.
Like most collectors there were times when I thought speculators were "not nice". The ironic thing is that several years back when I started collecting King & Country I would have considered one of the members commenting here to be a speculator of the highest order, so it's interesting to see his recent anti-speculator comments. I still haven't seen a perfect definition of a speculator but I don't think anyone that collects and resells what they collect to be a speculator at all. The fact is that a number of collectors do not have the experience, knowledge, resources or the time to get hold of new products on a timely basis and would not think that an extra say 20% was an excessive cost if it secured something they were after. When you factor in the costs involved in reselling items purchased at retail prices including time wasted, packaging etc these are not big dollars guys. I would not go so far to say such reselling is purely alturistic but it's far from being a speculator in my book.

Also this comment you have made below is dead on accurate: Goes back to the "Do as I say, Not as I do principle"

one of the members commenting here to be a speculator of the highest order, so it's interesting to see his recent anti-speculator comments

Well said Matt ! {bravo}} {bravo}} {bravo}}

 

[OzDigger]

Wayne, thanks for your thanks but I'm not going to name "the speculator" as it is all in the past and I have since become less judgemental of what others do or say, hopefully more members will try and do the same.

 

[Peter Reuss]

Gents...we have beat this 'who is a speculator' horse to death. Enough already! We've gone from rumor...to innuendo...to sly snarky comments...to direct confrontation. Nothing has been...or ever will be...agreed to on this. LET IT GO! We're not going to allow the anxiety of a few to overwhelm thread after thread. It's not going to happen.

The tribal wisdom of the Dakota Indians, passed on from generation to generation, says: “When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.”

However more advanced strategies are often employed, such as:

1. Buying a stronger whip.

2. Changing riders.

3. Appointing a committee to study the horse.

4. Arranging to visit other countries to see how other cultures ride dead horses.

5. Lowering the standards so that dead horses can be included.

6. Reclassifying the dead horse as living-impaired.

7. Hiring outside contractors to ride the dead horse.

8. Harnessing several dead horses together to increase speed.

9. Providing additional funding and/or training to increase dead horse’s performance.

10. Doing a productivity study to see if lighter riders would improve the dead horse’s performance.

11. Declaring that as the dead horse does not have to be fed, costs less, has lower overhead and therefore contributes substantially more to the bottom line of the economy than do other horses.

12. Rewriting the expected performance requirements for all horses.

And of course….

13. Promoting the dead horse to a supervisory position.

 

[Thompyt]

Gentlemen,
I have read the thread with interest. I still need to reread all the fine-heits to better comprehend. First things, Mitch your thread title is a misrepresentation of the topic if as stated they were not inclusive of only show figures, but others as well. Mitch your statement they you and a couple others have not lied implies everyone else has lied and you bring all not included on the list integrity into question. Otherwise, the simple thread has been a witch-hunt on PA44.

Regarding Jazzums questioning PA44s integrity with the seven Stukas: First of all this should not have been in this thread. It does not pertain to Show figures. (Neither does my comments...). Additionally, Jazzum should have more integrity himself to know that putting up personal information of a forum member is frowned upon. Jazzum would you question PA44s integrity to his face? I have worked with PA and been acquainted with him for a couple of years. As a matter of fact, he is the one who started my interest in collecting. I even attended the Texas show at his bequest. I have seen PA in operation with his business dealings. There was nothing corrupt in his dealings. I have seen each Stuka arrive with differing invoices and sold separately. Each sold BEFORE the next was ordered. None were bought as a set, or seven at once. As to speculation in purchasing all at once, Nope. Yet there was speculation of consumer interest each time one was purchased.

For the most part, the ones hollering the most for the unfairness of it all are JEALOUS. PA44 thought of it before you did. Big deal, get over it. Or, be a better businessman and beat him to the punch. So what if he sold at inflated prices, you'd do the same if given the chance. Even Mitch has the cajones to state he would sell if he had multiple sets. Why would PA44 sell these sets at a loss to make you pleased? That is stupidity. If the consumer is willing to purchase one at a higher rate due to the widespread word that all were sold through pre-order, then that is their choice and not yours to complain about.

The fact that PA44 got off his duff, researched the internet, and found a provider with extras for sale is good. He has to make a living and/or feed his collection as do the rest of us. The rest of you have the same capability, depending on how search savvy each is, to find the same items. Would you let everyone know the goldmine you found searching? The call that PA44 spread the word pre-orders were all sold out was not his, but of others on the net, including the stores where all of us purchased the pre-orders. Perhaps even to their benefit in sales.

Back to the thread.
Mitch’s question about the availability of show figures after the shows closing is a valid one. The Texas show changed with the making available of the figures release after the presentation. Thus, the sales of the same figure the same day. Internet availability and cash made this an easy option. We will have to see if this repeats in Chicago. Maybe K&C learned something from their earlier marketing ploy. The actual show figures given at the dinner was not Gen Bell, but TX Rangers. Yes, you get one per customer at the dinner. A family could get several for resale. More power to the family’s collector, they can sell several, still have what they need, and pay off some of the costs incurred from the trip. Each one of us would do that as well if needed. Some would use them for gifts for friends also. To each his own…..

You will never get the speculation out of this hobby. Some buy to collect with a later resale to augment income. Some by purchasing multiples, some by buying a well wanted item where they can find it, or by waiting after the purchase where they gain value from lack of availability. Others buy, repaint and resell. That is their prerogative and there is nothing you can do about it.

Mitch,
I thank you for allowing this to appear off topic in your thread.

 

[Mitch]

Thompty...

interesting points but, as Peter has said time to move on. The facts clearly speak for themselves but, this was always about show figures/exclusive/dinner call them what you want. You have read the thread as you say so, you will see it was not a witch hunt at all and, PA was not mentioned until he decided to enter the conversation. I would hope that having brought up this question that manufacturers may entertain the idea of offering some figures for an extended period post show.

I can only see this benefiting all collectors from around the world who do not for whatever reasons travel the world attending shows which, seems to be only a very small number.
Mitch

P.S. Also, the word et al covers all those whose names I did not write when I said I and others had not lied.

 

[jazzeum]

As Pete said, time to move on, although Thompyt has apparently persisted. It's nice to stick up for a friend but his statements have to be evaluated from that relationship. As I don't know PA I don't know what personal information I have disclosed. The number of Stukas he sold can be tracked through the eBay feedback system. Yes, I would say that to his face if he comes to Chicago.

And with that I hope we are done.

 

[Rob]

Yes, this thread was very interesting to start with and then as usual personal agendas crept in, time to move on.

Rob

 

[wayne556517]

Yes, this thread was very interesting to start with and then as usual personal agendas crept in, time to move on.

Rob

Hope your looking after MY show figure Rob..........................^&grin

 

[Rob]

Hope your looking after MY show figure Rob..........................^&grin

^&grin^&grin

I am mate, I've made sure he's got light duties behind the front line so he's safe and sound{bravo}}

Rob