Still In King & Country's Corner! (3 Viewers)

[Blowtorch]

1. Have you had a First Legion Stug in your hands? I have, it is light (feather lite)

Well, you would have less chance of dropping it

 

[HAWKEYE]

I am with tom. The first legion stug and figures were not that impressive. The figures looked stretched to make them taller and the stug was very light and had what seemed like soft plastic tracks. I just was not that enthused after all the build up. As for quality, i have not had any real issues with my kc stuff. As for the 2 figarti tanks i bought, the firefly and fording sherman., i guess i better unpack them and take a good look. As for kc, i hope they make a jagdtiger and is 152 before somebody else does.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Well, you would have less chance of dropping it

Saves a lot on shipping costs and shelf wear too.

I have no idea whether the Stug lives up to the hype or not but the weight of the piece will probably have little bearing on my judgment. I understand the sentiment because I switched to toy soldiers at first after growing tired of the "cheap" feel of light weight plastic items, however in retrospect I have to look back on that notion as kind of silly on my part.

This idea that because a product weighs more it must be higher quality seems to be based more on perception than actual fact. It reminds me of that part in the first Jurassic Park movie when they're sitting in the jeeps outside the T-Rex pen and the little boy Tim discovers some night vision goggles behind the back seat. The greedy lawyer Genaro asks him "Are they heavy?" The boy says "yes". So the lawyer says "That means they're expensive, put them down".

But I guess toy soldier collector's fixation on weight as a criteria for quality helps explains why polystone is the manufacturer's material of choice even though it is brittle and cannot hold fine detail. Since when is painted rock/stone preferable to higher quality painted plastic or metal? It really makes no sense. In the digital/computer world, the less a product weighs while retaining the same capabilities, the more valuable, expensive and high tech it is.

 

[Njja]

Is this thread really about, " Oh boy, if everybody starts dumping their K/C ,what will that do to the resale value of mine and others' personal collections? " That was my first thought when this thread started.Michael

......................................................................................................

Well I can only speak for myself, but I did start this thread and that was not
my purpose. As I stated eariler I did see several collectors begin to unload some items, and even read a couple of fellows say they were switching manufacters.

As I stated early on each collector is free to do as he chooses, and I have certainly over the years switched my focus on more then one occasion. I simply wanted to point out what I felt was a issue, and express my brand loyality and the reasons for it.

I don't think this is any different from the fellows saying they are switching to a new manufacter.

I have certainly been cordial, pointing out all the things I like reguarding packaging, and innovations, and willingness to tackle difficult projects....and simply pointed out what I felt were quality control issues which I do not think was unreasonable. I would also like to point out that I have heard from Rick personally and he has advised me that a replacement part will be sent out.
Let me say that he is most responsive, and a gentlemen. It is always a pleasure to find a manufacter that reads the Forum, and is responsive to his customers!

I am also quite pleased that this thread has been most cordial, and we have had a nice civil discussion on the matter.

 

[Njja]

Once again I would like to compliment everyone for their comments. It has
been a pleasure to be part of a civil, respectful discussion.

Not one deleted posting, or questionable comment!

Just a nice discussion.

 

[tdubel]

Saves a lot on shipping costs and shelf wear too.

I have no idea whether the Stug lives up to the hype or not but the weight of the piece will probably have little bearing on my judgment. I understand the sentiment because I switched to toy soldiers at first after growing tired of the "cheap" feel of light weight plastic items, however in retrospect I have to look back on that notion as kind of silly on my part.

This idea that because a product weighs more it must be higher quality seems to be based more on perception than actual fact. It reminds me of that part in the first Jurassic Park movie when they're sitting in the jeeps outside the T-Rex pen and the little boy Tim discovers some night vision goggles behind the back seat. The greedy lawyer Genaro asks him "Are they heavy?" The boy says "yes". So the lawyer says "That means they're expensive, put them down".

But I guess toy soldier collector's fixation on weight as a criteria for quality helps explains why polystone is the manufacturer's material of choice even though it is brittle and cannot hold fine detail. Since when is painted rock/stone preferable to higher quality painted plastic or metal? It really makes no sense. In the digital/computer world, the less a product weighs while retaining the same capabilities, the more valuable, expensive and high tech it is.

NO, polystone is not my first choice, METAL is. PLastic sucks, still sucks and always will suck in my opinion, clear enough???? It has its place for the Guns of Navarone when I was 5. By the way, polystone is not that brittle, as proved by early Figarti, metal is much more brittle.

The point I was making is, if I spend $300 on a 1/35 model, I would rather buy a Tamiya Masterworks for $199, well worth it, or better yet, buy the model and pay an expert like ALex to paint it.

TD

 

[The Military Workshop]

Regarding K&C and other brands I noted in another section of the Forum that George (Warrior) indicated that 65% of his sales at Chicago were K&C. Other brands he had for sale were Figarti, First Legion, John Jenkins, Britains, Thomas Gunn and a few other odd and ends such as diorama items. That would make K&C sales almost double that of all the other manufacturers combined.
Whilst some other manufacturers may have the particular vehicle(s) or era of figure that a collector is looking for K&C's range is unique in it's sheer scope of periods and variety and just as importantly stock availability.
Just my thoughts.
Regards
Brett

 

[wayne556517]

Regarding K&C and other brands I noted in another section of the Forum that George (Warrior) indicated that 65% of his sales at Chicago were K&C. Other brands he had for sale were Figarti, First Legion, John Jenkins, Britains, Thomas Gunn and a few other odd and ends such as diorama items. That would make K&C sales almost double that of all the other manufacturers combined.
Whilst some other manufacturers may have the particular vehicle(s) or era of figure that a collector is looking for K&C's range is unique in it's sheer scope of periods and variety and just as importantly stock availability.
Just my thoughts.
Regards
Brett

Thought you wer'nt getting involved..........

 

[glossman]

Once again I would like to compliment everyone for their comments. It has
been a pleasure to be part of a civil, respectful discussion.

Not one deleted posting, or questionable comment!

Just a nice discussion.

*
Hi njja,

My compliments to you for a very candid opening post to this thread.

This has been an interesting discussion conducted without undue recourse to the "uglies".

Best Regards, Raymond.

*

 

[Warrior]

Regarding K&C and other brands I noted in another section of the Forum that George (Warrior) indicated that 65% of his sales at Chicago were K&C. Other brands he had for sale were Figarti, First Legion, John Jenkins, Britains, Thomas Gunn and a few other odd and ends such as diorama items. That would make K&C sales almost double that of all the other manufacturers combined.
Whilst some other manufacturers may have the particular vehicle(s) or era of figure that a collector is looking for K&C's range is unique in it's sheer scope of periods and variety and just as importantly stock availability.
Just my thoughts.
Regards
Brett

Well said Brett; K & C, like all the other manufacturers you mentioned, went way out of their way to make sure myself and other dealers had the newest stock for the show, they all worked with us to ensure great sales, which is the key to any show.

Ok, I'm done with this thread, I'll quit while I'm ahead.

Way ahead.

 

[wayne556517]

Well said Brett; K & C, like all the other manufacturers you mentioned, went way out of their way to make sure myself and other dealers had the newest stock for the show, they all worked with us to ensure great sales, which is the key to any show.

Ok, I'm done with this thread, I'll quit while I'm ahead.

Way ahead.

Im with you...................

 

[damian]

NO, polystone is not my first choice, METAL is. PLastic sucks, still sucks and always will suck in my opinion, clear enough???? It has its place for the Guns of Navarone when I was 5. By the way, polystone is not that brittle, as proved by early Figarti, metal is much more brittle.

The point I was making is, if I spend $300 on a 1/35 model, I would rather buy a Tamiya Masterworks for $199, well worth it, or better yet, buy the model and pay an expert like ALex to paint it.

TD

So you don't like plastic then.

 

[FirstLegion]

Regarding K&C and other brands I noted in another section of the Forum that George (Warrior) indicated that 65% of his sales at Chicago were K&C. Other brands he had for sale were Figarti, First Legion, John Jenkins, Britains, Thomas Gunn and a few other odd and ends such as diorama items. That would make K&C sales almost double that of all the other manufacturers combined.
Whilst some other manufacturers may have the particular vehicle(s) or era of figure that a collector is looking for K&C's range is unique in it's sheer scope of periods and variety and just as importantly stock availability.
Just my thoughts.
Regards
Brett

Yeah, I saw this as well and was going to comment on it earlier, but decided to let it go. But since you've pointed it out, I'll go ahead and comment. I'd ask George to recheck his numbers as I know that about 30% of his sales were FL which would mean he sold prety much nothing else from any other maker.

 

[Steven Chong]

My brother and I started collecting K&C back in 1986, so I thought I would offer a personal recollection of an earlier K&C which I think some will realize is strikingly similar to the current development of another company mentioned in this thread. Back in 1995, K&C launched Arnhem '44 with one single set, and created the 1/32 matt WWII market. Realizing WWII required vehicles, K&C found a craftsman in Hong Kong to create beautiful wooden and metal vehicles: Tiger Ausf. E, Sturmgeschutz IV, and Hanomag Sd.Kfz. 251. The price in early 1996 for the tanks was a then shocking $346 and the halftrack was $243. I remember Andy asking me for my opinion of the price at an OTSN (Chicago) Show, and my response that very few collectors would want to pay that price for a vehicle. Because of the relatively high price then, fewer than 100 of each of these early wooden and later resin vehicles were made. Some of the early wood vehicles suffered damage in shipping and quite a few developed cracks in the wood. However, K&C kept trying and eventually found the polystone material in 1998 that is being used to the present day to produce good quality and reasonably priced vehicles -- a development for which K&C is justly lauded.

Not simply copying K&C by producing vehicles in polystone like other companies, some of which are now defunct, the other company mentioned in this thread has tried to produce vehicles differently and tried to offer more detailing -- all at prices less than the original list price of the first K&C WWII vehicles but certainly higher than the current average K&C price. Their attempts to offer finer detailed pieces have resulted in lots of damage, skewed tank boogies, and other problems that have disappointed collectors and caused some to avoid their products. However, they appear to have responded to complaints and tried to rectify problems. This other company is trying to innovate and offer a different type of product, and I hope they continue to strive and find their own way like K&C did many years ago.

 

[nasirkasmani]

My brother and I started collecting K&C back in 1986, so I thought I would offer a personal recollection of an earlier K&C which I think some will realize is strikingly similar to the current development of another company mentioned in this thread. Back in 1995, K&C launched Arnhem '44 with one single set, and created the 1/32 matt WWII market. Realizing WWII required vehicles, K&C found a craftsman in Hong Kong to create beautiful wooden and metal vehicles: Tiger Ausf. E, Sturmgeschutz IV, and Hanomag Sd.Kfz. 251. The price in early 1996 for the tanks was a then shocking $346 and the halftrack was $243. I remember Andy asking me for my opinion of the price at an OTSN (Chicago) Show, and my response that very few collectors would want to pay that price for a vehicle. Because of the relatively high price then, fewer than 100 of each of these early wooden and later resin vehicles were made. Some of the early wood vehicles suffered damage in shipping and quite a few developed cracks in the wood. However, K&C kept trying and eventually found the polystone material in 1998 that is being used to the present day to produce good quality and reasonably priced vehicles -- a development for which K&C is justly lauded.

Not simply copying K&C by producing vehicles in polystone like other companies, some of which are now defunct, the other company mentioned in this thread has tried to produce vehicles differently and tried to offer more detailing -- all at prices less than the original list price of the first K&C WWII vehicles but certainly higher than the current average K&C price. Their attempts to offer finer detailed pieces have resulted in lots of damage, skewed tank boogies, and other problems that have disappointed collectors and caused some to avoid their products. However, they appear to have responded to complaints and tried to rectify problems. This other company is trying to innovate and offer a different type of product, and I hope they continue to strive and find their own way like K&C did many years ago.

good post.

 

[nasirkasmani]

on the plus side of this (supposed dumping of K&C items), the opportunity arises for newer collectors to bid for older/rare/classic items in ebay.

surely a win-win situation for seler, buyer alike.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Looks like we have had a number of deletions here.

 

[tdubel]

So you don't like plastic then.

Ya,
but again, all my own opinion, everyone should forumlate their own!

I was a little harsh on plastic, for me it had its time and place and is now being enjoyed by my 5 year old. I make an exception for old Britains Detail (metal parts)

 

[Warrior]

Yeah, I saw this as well and was going to comment on it earlier, but decided to let it go. But since you've pointed it out, I'll go ahead and comment. I'd ask George to recheck his numbers as I know that about 30% of his sales were FL which would mean he sold prety much nothing else from any other maker.

I sold about 3,500 worth of K & retired items that I bought off of another dealer who did not have a market for them; I didn't count that as show sales initially but threw that number into the mix just to keep my records strait after the fact.

ALSO, anytime a customer gives me a preorder for a show ("hey George, could you bring this or that to the show for me and I'll pick it up there"), I usually do not count that as a show sale; I decided after the fact to do so as it got confusing after awhile trying to remember what money was for the show and what was preordered.

LASTLY, Figarti and Matt Murphy were nice enough to provide me with 3 each of the 88, prime mover and stuka halftrack which were all in fact presold and it just so happened that three of the customers who had preordered them were there. These sales initially were also not counted as show sales, but after the fact I did so.

I hope this answers your question Matt................

 

[Cyber Field Marshall]

Here's my 2 cents. I'm in my own corner! I'm not a manufacturer or a dealer, I'm a consumer. As such I'll buy the best quality product out there with the best price I can find. Here's my assessment of some of my favourite brands currently.
K&C : Without a doubt my favourite brand. Nobody can compete with their balance of quality, price and range of offerings. With constant improvement in vehicles and soldiers whose appearance I prefer they are simply the best.
Figarti : They offer outstanding vehicles however I think they are too expensive and limited to be serious competition to K&C. I've only purchased Figarti when K&C has not made a similar product or looks like they won't ( ex. Firefly ). I've had no quality issues. Love their shock and awe contributions to the hobby. I really don't like their figures. They have a "stiff" unnatural look to them. If K&C issued the same product as Figarti I'd go K&C every time.
First Legion : Maybe the best military miniature manufacturer out there. Their figures are comparable to Russian connoisseur product however their prices reflect the quality. They don't currently have many lines I'm interested in however if they go deeper into WWII then look out! Given the huge price of their recent Stug I'm unfortunately not likely going to be a serious collector of FL. Their Samurai's look interesting.
Russian connoisseur : Best product out there but way out of my league and the depth of their releases aren't good enough.
Collector's Showcase : Excellent product, comparable to K&C in quality and price. I like how they are trying to differentiate themselves by offering features on vehicles other manufacturer's aren't doing ( ex. thrown tracks and moving doors ) and by offering multiple versions at once. Their figures don't look as good as K&C's yet. Still unless they differentiate themselves more I'd still buy K&C before CS if they released similar product.
Honour Bound : Used to make top notch vehicles but they were way too expensive. Figures are too expensive as well and just aesthetically don't appeal to me, they look too wirery. They do however have many interesting and unusual releases ( ex. Field kitchens ).
Forces of Valor: Offer excellent value however historical accuracy is an issue and are small 1/32 scale and recently have had very few releases. Their soldiers are truly horrible.

That's my current view on some of the manufacturer's, they are subject to change in the future!

Cheers
CFM