Still some sympathizers... (2 Viewers)

[ostrein]

Yes indeed, seems very harsh on them that he will be buried at sea.

Rob

Well, over here in Germany you lease a Grave Site. When the lease runs out it's up to the family if they want to renew the lease or not. In this particular case, the family decided to not renew the lease.
Most families lease a grave site for 7- 20 years. Than the site will be cleaned (the remains burned and the ashes burried in an unmarked plot) and used again.
RH grave got now removed after 24 years.

Regarding the sympathisers, I believe you will find such idiots in every country. You have them in the UK, in the US and even in Israel. We all know have learned to deal with (any) fanatics - I hope!

These comments regarding modern Germany makes me feel real uncomfortable!
But its not new to me. I had this nearly every day when I was living in England for almost 8 years.

Oliver

 

[Scott]

Well, over here in Germany you lease a Grave Site. When the lease runs out it's up to the family if they want to renew the lease or not. In this particular case, the family decided to not renew the lease.
Most families lease a grave site for 7- 20 years. Than the site will be cleaned (the remains burned and the ashes burried in an unmarked plot) and used again.
RH grave got now removed after 24 years.

Regarding the sympathisers, I believe you will find such idiots in every country. You have them in the UK, in the US and even in Israel. We all know have learned to deal with (any) fanatics - I hope!

These comments regarding modern Germany makes me feel real uncomfortable!
But its not new to me. I had this nearly every day when I was living in England for almost 8 years.

Oliver

My father was badly wounded in Europe yet by the mid 1950s he was hosting German Sea Scouts at our house. Later in the early 60s he spared the feelings of a German woman we were friendly with by telling her that his exit wounds on his back (visible at the beach) were from a "bobcat attack." He had a merchant captain friend that used to dock in Gloucester that had been a U-Boat commander. I figured if HE could live and let live I could.

 

[damian]

Rudolph Hess is much loved by neo Nazis and holocaust denialists and conspiracy theorists. They sort of think that he was Hitler;s peace emissary to the UK, The plan was for Hitler to make peace with the west and then for an all out attack on the communist east. According to a number of revisionists like David Irving that would have allowed a strong German to dominate Europe and the west (Britain and France) to continue with their Empires. According to Irving and his ilk it was Churchill who was the warmonger who spurned these gestures and prolonged a war between countries which should have been allies. The subsequent defeat of the old Empires the rise of the US and the Cold War with Russia are all a result of Churchill's folly. The denialists believe that Hess was trying to make contact with the moderates in the UK who would have made peace with Hitler and restored the pro Nazi Edward VIII and his American wife Wallace Simpson to the throne. David Irving wrote a whole book about Hess and it was pretty boring I must say as the guy was in prison for most of it. That is why the Neo Nazi lunatics are so keen on remembering Hess.

 

[wadepat]

My father was badly wounded in Europe yet by the mid 1950s he was hosting German Sea Scouts at our house. Later in the early 60s he spared the feelings of a German woman we were friendly with by telling her that his exit wounds on his back (visible at the beach) were from a "bobcat attack." He had a merchant captain friend that used to dock in Gloucester that had been a U-Boat commander. I figured if HE could live and let live I could.

Gentle Friends,

I want to encourage everyone to exercise caution in how you address the original topic of this thread. The thread was initiated as an interesing news item. It was not intended to serve as an opportunity to pass judgement on the past actions of any given country. I realize some of the comments on this thread may have been posted in jest, but, as we all know, it is sometimes difficult to interprete the intent behind the written word.

Scott, in the post quoted above, shares the great wisdom displayed by his father. Let us profit from his father's wisdom and keep this thread friendly, civil, and respectful.

Now, please, continue to enjoy the forum!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :smile2:

 

[Rob]

Thanks Pat, this was indeed started as a news story and somehow sank into possibly extreme views of certain nations, keep it light as it were, as much as you can when talking about leading Nazis!

Cheers

Rob

Gentle Friends,

I want to encourage everyone to exercise caution in how you address the original topic of this thread. The thread was initiated as an interesing news item. It was not intended to serve as an opportunity to pass judgement on the past actions of any given country. I realize some of the comments on this thread may have been posted in jest, but, as we all know, it is sometimes difficult to interprete the intent behind the written word.

Scott, in the post quoted above, shares the great wisdom displayed by his father. Let us profit from his father's wisdom and keep this thread friendly, civil, and respectful.

Now, please, continue to enjoy the forum!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :smile2:

 

[Scott]

Thanks Pat, this was indeed started as a news story and somehow sank into possibly extreme views of certain nations, keep it light as it were, as much as you can when talking about leading Nazis!

Cheers

Rob

Nazis are still the "gold standard of evil." You have to keep an eye on folks that still think the 3rd Reich was a good thing. It's waaaaay beyond folks that just like to collect WW II relics and figures. I do wonder about who collects the "jolly SA beer drinking and poster club" series of figures.

 

[Rob]

Nazis are still the "gold standard of evil." You have to keep an eye on folks that still think the 3rd Reich was a good thing. It's waaaaay beyond folks that just like to collect WW II relics and figures. I do wonder about who collects the "jolly SA beer drinking and poster club" series of figures.

This is very true. We can never bang on too much about what a plague of filth they were. Yes they had superb AFV's, great Generals and well trained soldiers, but they still fought for a perverted,racist,intolerant regime that was a sewer burst across Europe. Thank god for the Allies of all nations who fought for freedom. Its one reason why I will never be able to express my gratitude and respect for the men and women who fought in the Battle of Britain, the thought of the Germanic animals landing in my country doesn't bare thinking about.

Having said that I know many people who collect LAH etc and do not for a second believe they are Nazi sympathizers, I believe they enjoy the pomp and marching element of it, but it would not surprise me if the odd feeble minded collector collected them for darker reasons.

Rob

 

[Ruggles]

Again as the new guy I have to refer to my other hobby of firearms as the TS hobby is still too new to me to have much to add. I collected WWII era rifles for a while. SMLEs, M1 Carbines, M1 Garands, K31s etc. I wanted a K98 Mauser but could not bear the thought of owning a rifle that took Allied lives or possibly killed innocent civilians in WWII. I ended up buying a K98 that had been refurbished by Yugoslavia after WWII. It seems a number of K98s were captured by the Yugoslavian resistance and used against the German occupiers. After the war the Yugoslavian government refurbed these rifles and decades latter they ended up on the market in America.

I reasoned that the K98 I was buying at least was used against the German forces and even if it took blood by German hands it was redeemed by it's use against them latter.

Most folks (and WWII firearm collectors) in the firearm world would think I was crazy for even caring, they are no more supporters of Nazis than me. They would collect whichever firearm they liked regardless of it's history. I do not collect WWII German TS items (just not currently interested in that era) but I do not think those who do are pro Nazi. I would support the ideal that a very small minority are pro Nazi just as a very small minority of folks buying WWII German firearm are pro Nazi.

I do on the other hand collect WWI German TS items

I would also add that WWII and it's aftermath have run it's course IMO and I bear no ill will towards modern Germany. They are no more responsible for the actions of the Nazis than modern Americans are for slavery or the actions against Native Americans. I would add that folks collecting U.S. Civil War items (TS and other types) from the Confederacy are not pro slavery or racist IMO, again a few are I am sure but the vast majority are just interested in that era.

Just my .02

 

[tdubel]

Rudolph Hess is much loved by neo Nazis and holocaust denialists and conspiracy theorists. They sort of think that he was Hitler;s peace emissary to the UK, The plan was for Hitler to make peace with the west and then for an all out attack on the communist east. According to a number of revisionists like David Irving that would have allowed a strong German to dominate Europe and the west (Britain and France) to continue with their Empires. According to Irving and his ilk it was Churchill who was the warmonger who spurned these gestures and prolonged a war between countries which should have been allies. The subsequent defeat of the old Empires the rise of the US and the Cold War with Russia are all a result of Churchill's folly. The denialists believe that Hess was trying to make contact with the moderates in the UK who would have made peace with Hitler and restored the pro Nazi Edward VIII and his American wife Wallace Simpson to the throne. David Irving wrote a whole book about Hess and it was pretty boring I must say as the guy was in prison for most of it. That is why the Neo Nazi lunatics are so keen on remembering Hess.

Damian,
I had quite forgotten about this until you posted but you are quite right. As has been posted here, Hess was largely forgotten due to his imprisonment for most of the war. I actually got interested in his story because of his life imprisonment and suicide. AGain, I always found it interesting they kept him locked up for so long.

TD

 

[Napoleon1er]

Again as the new guy I have to refer to my other hobby of firearms as the TS hobby is still too new to me to have much to add. I collected WWII era rifles for a while. SMLEs, M1 Carbines, M1 Garands, K31s etc. I wanted a K98 Mauser but could not bear the thought of owning a rifle that took Allied lives or possibly killed innocent civilians in WWII. I ended up buying a K98 that had been refurbished by Yugoslavia after WWII. It seems a number of K98s were captured by the Yugoslavian resistance and used against the German occupiers. After the war the Yugoslavian government refurbed these rifles and decades latter they ended up on the market in America.

Reasoned that the K98 I was buying at least was used against the German forces and even if it took blood by German hands it was redeemed by it's use against them latter.

Most folks (and WWII firearm collectors) in the firearm world would think I was crazy for even caring, they are no more supporters of Nazis than me. They would collect whichever firearm they liked regardless of it's history. I do not collect WWII German TS items (just not currently interested in that era) but I do not think those who do are pro Nazi. I would support the ideal that a very small minority are pro Nazi just as a very small minority of folks buying WWII German firearm are pro Nazi.

I do on the other hand collect WWI German TS items

I would also add that WWII and it's aftermath have run it's course IMO and I bear no ill will towards modern Germany. They are no more responsible for the actions of the Nazis than modern Americans are for slavery or the actions against Native Americans. I would add that folks collecting U.S. Civil War items (TS and other types) from the Confederacy are not pro slavery or racist IMO, again a few are I am sure but the vast majority are just interested in that era.

Just my .02

I totally agree! On two other notes:
I was wondering how many share my opinion that in WWI both sides are at fault, and that the Austrians/Germans were not forces of "forces of evil". Unlike WWII, WWI was not targeted at any one group, and was merely a political war. My dad's uncles fought for Austria (in the hussars), and I do not think they were at fault.
My last "thing" is conerning the WNA/ACW. As a Massachusettes boy, I support the cause of the CSA, but vehimently oppose slavery. They may be hard to seperate, but as a supporter of Libery, I can not denounce a people who are fighting for their freedom, and as a supporter of Equality, I must obviously oppose slavery.
And lastly, as a supporter of Fraternity, I must support the need to undertanding between these two groups. Both need to realize the other has something to say.
E MANUM SANDOR

 

[Scott]

......
My last "thing" is conerning the WNA/ACW. As a Massachusettes boy, I support the cause of the CSA, but vehimently oppose slavery. They may be hard to seperate, but as a supporter of Libery, I can not denounce a people who are fighting for their freedom, and as a supporter of Equality, I must obviously oppose slavery.
And lastly, as a supporter of Fraternity, I must support the need to undertanding between these two groups. Both need to realize the other has something to say.
E MANUM SANDOR

I find both sides in that fight interesting but when you examine the CSA's founding documents and that secession happened over a lost election rather than an actual threat, then the CSA was more old fashioned than evil.

The CSA did have both Biblical and US Constitutional authority to back up what they intended to preserve anyway. The average Confederate, though not a slave holder could hope to own slaves and get rich, or get rich from the existing system. Considering how most people, everywhere thought about race at the time you could think yourself "kind" as a slave owner by treating your slaves well.

The Nazis tapped into folk's existing fears about "others", a traditional religious hate for Jews going back before Luther, (they never abandoned organized religions nor did the major churches reject them) and ideal of a beautiful superior race. It didn't "hurt" that losing a major war made Germany poor, humiliated and vengeful. Whether Nazi leaders actually believed their own "Bull" or just used it for power comes down to individual Nazis. Most dictator and tyrants in the past left you alone if you obeyed but the Nazis messed with you private life and your mind.

 

[Rutledge]

I find both sides in that fight interesting but when you examine the CSA's founding documents and that secession happened over a lost election rather than an actual threat, then the CSA was more old fashioned than evil.

Whew! That was close. For a second it looked like my ancestors were going to be more evil than old-fashioned!{eek3}

My sincere thanks for categorizing the old rebs as just "mostly stupid" and perhaps only a little bit evil. "Down heah' we had all been waiting anxiously for your pronouncement as to the character of our forebearers. Now we can rest easy from your thorough, kind and generous assessment....

 

[wadepat]

Gentle Friends,

Isn't it interesting how a news item regarding the disposition of the remains of Rudolf Hess leads to a discussion of the issues surrounding the American Civil War? ^&grin Unfortunately, the ACW and its related issues continue to be a highly emotionally charged topic for many of us. Therefore, please use extreme care in what you say on this thread and how you say it. I do not want to restrict discussion, but neither to I want to see it evolve into a free for all.

Thanks for your understanding!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[Napoleon1er]

Gentle Friends,

Isn't it interesting how a news item regarding the disposition of the remains of Rudolf Hess leads to a discussion of the issues surrounding the American Civil War? ^&grin Unfortunately, the ACW and its related issues continue to be a highly emotionally charged topic for many of us. Therefore, please use extreme care in what you say on this thread and how you say it. I do not want to restrict discussion, but neither to I want to see it evolve into a free for all.

Thanks for your understanding!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

^&cool I take responsibility for debate on the ACW, though I hope no one took offence (the thread just brought to mind something I had been thinking about). Now for Scot- I agree with the majority of what you said! Rutledge- not stupid, not evil, but idealistic and angry about the current state of affairs. To go down the ol' 'what if' road, what if the South had lasted a bit longer? Somewhere I heard that they had been negotiating with England for support on the condition that slavery would be abolished. I also know for a fact that they were on the verge of raising a huge number of black regements, all of the men of which would obtan freedom for themselves and their families. I think they could have won the war. It is also possible that IF this had happened, after the war was 'won' that there would have been LESS segeregation, as there would be a sence of gratitude and possibley even some brotherhood between soldiers of all races. (Please use your imagination to insert funny 'what if' quote from my grandfather. If you want to hear it, PM me. Warning: contains R-rated words{sm4}

Vive Napoléon,
Sandor

 

[Scott]

Whew! That was close. For a second it looked like my ancestors were going to be more evil than old-fashioned!{eek3}

My sincere thanks for categorizing the old rebs as just "mostly stupid" and perhaps only a little bit evil. "Down heah' we had all been waiting anxiously for your pronouncement as to the character of our forebearers. Now we can rest easy from your thorough, kind and generous assessment....

You are welcome sir. Glad I could help.

 

[Scott]

Sandor,

When the CSA was on the verge or recruiting black units it was on the verge of collapsing.

Considering the 180,000 known black recruits for the United States, that group voted with their feet and lives.

The Brazilians were able to recruit their slaves a few years later to fight in Paraguay from a position of strength without Paraguayans occupying parts of Brazil.


To bring it back to Nazi Germany, they recruited men from conquered countries that "fit" their racial model and who saw the Nazi's fight as their fight. The Third Reich didn't recruit (knowingly) their most hated minorities.

 

[Scott]

Gentle Friends,

Isn't it interesting how a news item regarding the disposition of the remains of Rudolf Hess leads to a discussion of the issues surrounding the American Civil War? ^&grin Unfortunately, the ACW and its related issues continue to be a highly emotionally charged topic for many of us. Therefore, please use extreme care in what you say on this thread and how you say it. I do not want to restrict discussion, but neither to I want to see it evolve into a free for all.

Thanks for your understanding!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

Sure Pat, I can stick with that. It's far easier to "contrast" than "compare" admirers of Nazi Germany with admirers other past regimes like the CSA.

 

[Ruggles]

I agree, from what I have learned of WWI it was THE war (of such a magnitude) that could have and should have been prevented! Both "sides" were at fault for it's start and really neither side was "evil" as in the sense of WWII where the German and the Japanese were much more clearly guilty of "evil" actions and intentions. I believe WWII was inevitable while WWI could have easily been avoided. Of course WWII would have have been nearly as inevitable had WWI not occurred so it is a viscous circle.


I just brought the CSA up as a reference point and did not intend for it to cause any issue {sm2}

 

[Scott]

It was OK with me. The issue is modern sympathizers with the Third Reich as opposed to "buffs" of the Civil War era and WW II.

 

[damian]

Modern neo nazi groups frequently make use of some of the symbols and flags from the Civil War in their ceremonies.
There is a great deal of overlap in these groups.
In the US they overlap with the KKK.
In the UK they overlap with the BNP and some of the old Loyalist paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland.
In SA they try and overlap with Afrikaner nationalist groups.
In Europe they are found amongst parties opposed to immigration.
In Norway they often merge with Satanic black rock bands who believe in restoring the Nordic Gods and burning down Churches.
Unfortunately modern neo nazism is not an idle issue and we all need to be concerned about it.