The "J word" Discussion (2 Viewers)

[bradleyl30]

In case people want to add their contributions to the discussion of the word Jap and whether it should be used out of historical context (e.g., a figure or poster depicting the sentiments in the 1940s is in context, casual use today out of historical context)

This is mainly to allow the original thread to get back on track.

 

[zblang]

The words only hurt if you let them stuff doesn't cut it with me. Just bc someone can brush it off doesn't make it right.

Ps, for me this carries over to people wearing ss uniforms at shows and other events

 

[zblang]

My grandparents generation called Chinese chinks, in the south, and elsewhere they had countless terms for Jews and black people....so, bc they did it, should we? It's not debatable, the answer is no. This is not a pc issue, it beyond un pc to use these terms. You just don't use them

 

[Napoleon1er]

My thoughts on the issue are mixed.

I sincerely think the use of the term on this forum (and in this hobby) grew out of the ubiquity of the term in historical sources and media as well as a desire for brevity. We abbreviate everything in this hobby: K&C, CS, FL, matte, glossy, 1/32, etc.... We also abbreviate names for groups of people: Krauts, Yanks, Kiwis, etc.... That said, these nicknames, including the one that was intended to be offensive (Krauts), are no longer popular derogatory terms.

"Jap" is still a derogatory term, however. Inasmuch, we should respect the Japanese members of this forum, who, like the German members of this forum, had nothing to do with the Second World War.

While I am not one to get offended by derogatory terms, I do understand what it feels like to experience them. I don't think there needs to be any policy either way, but I think we can all exercise proper judgement on this topic in the future.

-Sandor

 

[tdubel]

This is one of those discussions where everyone is going to be able to make a valid point. My Grandfather at 96 plus, still kicking as I have said, hates Japanese, why, because he witnessed first hand war with Japan and that is his impression. I have never nor now tried to change his mind. He is still pissed my wife bought a Toyota. He is not a big fan of Germans either even though half of our heritage is all German! It is a matter of his life experiences. Now, on the flipside, he loves Jewish people even though he was born in an era where certain prejudices exist, of course my wife is Jewish , so in my mind he doesn't have a choice, but that was never an issue! Point in all of this is that everyone has their beliefs, no matter how right or wrong in someone else's eyes with regards to the Japanese. The Pacific is unique as for years, the Chinese hate the Japanese, the Japanese hate the Koreans and the Koreans hate them both.........it goes on and on.

Now - as to wearing SS Uniforms and Jackboots, I have very thick skin and can honestly appreciate the parade beauty of the German uniforms, however, seeing them worn at shows just doesn't work for me. Reenactment, fine, but walking around leisurely at shows, kind of gives me the creeps. Nazi regalia is in a league all its own in my opinion.

Tom

 

[marco55]

It seems we Americans are the ones the most that have this "guilt"trip about other races and ethic groups.Ask the Greeks and Armenians about Turks,or arabs about Israelis Some Japanese leaders themselves just recently asked why anyone intelligent would want to be a moslem. Every race or ethic group has prejudices against someone.I work with black,hispanic,gay,jewish,italian,irish and probably many others and are friends with all.If there is someone I don't like it's because he's a jerk not what group he belongs to.We can not judge the people of the past too harshly as we didn't live in their time.Humans are more tolerent than they were 100 years ago and hopefully will be more so 100 years for now.We are evolving,let nature take it's course.
Mark

 

[Panzer ace]

The words only hurt if you let them stuff doesn't cut it with me. Just bc someone can brush it off doesn't make it right.

Ps, for me this carries over to people wearing ss uniforms at shows and other events

It is not a mater of right or wrong. You can't stop people from using the terms/words/descriptions, but you can control how you take them.

 

[tdubel]

My grandparents generation called Chinese chinks, in the south, and elsewhere they had countless terms for Jews and black people....so, bc they did it, should we? It's not debatable, the answer is no. This is not a pc issue, it beyond un pc to use these terms. You just don't use them

Zach,

I think it is a valid point that the disparaging terms are not modern context acceptable< I agree wholeheartedly. Like you I also don't like to see jackboots outside of military reenactments.

I can only say this regarding myself - I am PREJUDICED.........against ignorance and arrogance. I just don't like dumb people who act with a smart *** flare regardless of background

TD

 

[zblang]

I actually understand exactly which position you come from as I referenced my grandfather, I don't disagree with it and I do think it added to the discussion, sorry if my post wasn't clear on that, cuz I get it. As I have stated many times, I THANK GOD for the Atomic Bomb and have absolutely no (ZERO) remorse or apologies for it, it saved my Grandfather's life and I don't care about any of the "innocent" Japanese people killed in those bombings, I really don't, it was very necessary and it had a personal outcome for me. So I definitely get it and the Japanese War Crimes were absolutely atrocious and the more people educate themselves on them, they will find they are on par with the Nazis in a lot of ways.

The Nazis and Imperial Japan were some of the worst regimes in history.

Tom

I think there are two issues here. I completely agree with all that you say there Tom. The American lives saved by the bomb far exceed those Japanese killed. That being said, the term "Jap" offends the Japanese of today, I am not going to call them that.

 

[tdubel]

I think there are two issues here. I completely agree with all that you say there Tom. The American lives saved by the bomb far exceed those Japanese killed. That being said, the term "Jap" offends the Japanese of today, I am not going to call them that.

I agree on both counts, I just don't correct my 96 year old Grandfather either! Again, in modern context, agree on all parts, I do understand the historic disdain for the Japanese of circa 1915-1945. But I do not refer to the modern day citizens as Japs either.

TD

 

[tdubel]

Guys,

Hold it fellas, and I know I am going to get crap for this b/c I am sure there are some who would say I am a hypocrite for what i am about to post and my response is that I like and respect the posters on this thread, therefore I don't want to see hard heads butt up against each other.

That said - Hold it fellas, this is getting personal where it doesn't need to be, everyone and i mean all of us who have commented have raised very valid points and they all have merit, let's put it back in that court and leave the other part behind b/c we are not being productive.

Nobody is right or wrong on this one as we are talking about accepted norms in a historical context and a modern one. I think there is a lot of common ground here but also there is a lot of personal "space". This is one topic where I don't view the insults as truly personal, they are coming because of valid viewpoints that have strong personal history behind them.

My opinion and you can tell me to stuff it, but I think if more people on a whole would have discussions about hard topics in a productive manner, we would all benefit.

TD

 

[zblang]

I think if more people on a whole would have discussions about hard topics in a productive manner, we would all benefit.

TD

Could not agree more!

 

[wadepat]

Gentle Friends,

As you can see, this thread has drawn much attention. The topic is worthy of discussion, but that discussion must be conducted with respect and civility. Please continue to share your perspectives on the subject in a thoughtful manner or this thread might be closed and/or deleted.

BLReed had been excused from further discussion on this thread.

Thanks for your understanding!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[Napoleon1er]

I think anyone who is involved in the study of history has to be able to separate past events from the present. My grandfather hated a lot of people for a variety of reasons. He hated the Russians/Ukrainians because he lived through the pogroms, he hated the Turks because they tried to prevent his family from fleeing the pogroms, he hated the Germans because they killed so many of our people, he hated the Japanese because he fought them in the Pacific, and, in his old age, he disliked other groups because he was a bit racist. I grew up with real hate for Germany and the other groups that hurt (or tried to hurt) my family. It took a while, but in 10th grade, I convinced my family to host a German exchange student, and I later spent some time with him in Germany. I guess you just have to realize that being German is not what made the Nazis do what they did. In fact, anyone could do the same, given the right circumstances. That is why we all have to do our best to resist hate within ourselves. If that means refraining from using certain words, so be it. If that means trying not to hate those who use those words, I think that does a lot of good, too.

 

[Desertkiwi]

I've managed to read most of the posts on this subject, apart from the deleted ones in this thread and I go back to the original term that started all this fuss. The way I see it, the word 'Jap' has only been used on this forum as an abbreviation for the word Japanese in reference to Japanese troops during WW2. This is a term commonly used to refer to those troops during this period.

There has been no suggestion of it being used to refer to that race now-a-days, which obviously would be considered offensive and inappropriate and rightly so.

On the other side of the coin, I see some of you taking the moral high ground on this issue, seem to feel it's ok to refer to a race of people by their colour, in particular using the term 'black'. It seems somewhat hypocritical and indeed racist to be referring to any race by their skin colour, opposed to using the abbreviated term 'Jap' as a shortened version of Japanese in the context of WW2 troops.

The term 'black' when referring to dark skinned people such as Maori and Pacific Islanders is considered highly offensive in my country and if used in a certain way could get you arrested here. Yet it's a term widely used by many overseas and by all accounts is considered a totally acceptable term to describe Ethnic races with dark skin.

I'm not so precious that I would normally mention the 'black' term, but in the context of this discussion I think it's important to give a comparison and to also remind those of you that regularly use the term that some of us are not comfortable with it's use.

 

[zblang]

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing.
Maybe that's the crux of the issue...our nationalities. In one culture what's forbidden may be acceptable elsewhere.
My basic rule is whatever the people I am referring to want to be called, that's what I call them.

 

[Jack]

I am not hugely concerned about the use of the word although I personally would not use it in a professional setting or outside my friendship group, nor would I use it in front of an audience including Japanese people. That would wipe out forums because the audience is unknown to the user.

I am now longer working in schools but if I can put my teacher's hat on for a moment, a line needs to be drawn somewhere. If we shuffle the word 'Jap' across the line to 'borderline' acceptable, there will always be a word just the other side that edges ever closer to acceptable. I do not know if it will appear on this post but the Australian use of 'bloody' is now no longer a swear word, and hasn't been for decades. Yet every student who used it in front of me, near me, at me, within my hearing was corrected, because if I let it go, there was always a slightly more offensive word that edged ever closer to acceptable.

 

[The Military Workshop]

To sum up four people used the following terms : "jap loader" "jap loader" "the Jap Zero" and "the Japs are well done".

and then Bradley started off this debate with this comment.

"i don't mean to be a downer and am generally not overly "politically correct", but should we be slinging the term "Jap" so much? Isn't it a racial slur?.
We have discussed the shrinking of the our hobby and if I were Japanese, I would not find it a very welcoming place".

and then Brad (Jazzeum) says "It's not PC and it's considered a slur".

In my view the four posters were not using a racial slur in the context that they made them. They were either using short form and/or the common term used to refer to Japanese in WW2.

If Bradley was Japanese and reading this forum lets assume he actually knew of the atrocities his countrymen committed during WW2. I would think he would be grateful that was the extent of any racial slur used here when discussing Japanese during WW2.

Nobody in any post has used "Jap" to describe current Japanese so no slur has been made towards any potential Japanese TF reader, collector or modern day Japanese. Likewise I have never seen any members here refer to current Germans as Nazis.

Incidentally I have been on this forum for 11 years and dont recall any indication of a Japanese member. There are however a few Chinese members. If I was a Chinerse member with not so good English I would consider coming on and saying "I am Chinese. The word Nanking says it all for me, far more than Jap".

Remember this point. "Jap" is only considered a slur because of the Japanese soldiers despicable behaviour during WW2. They shamed themselves and anybody who refers to a WW2 Japanese (or a metal figure) as a "Jap" has, in my view, got nothing to apologise for.

Here is a test. You are a WW2 American pilot and are going to survive a crash landing in Germany or Japan. Who would you choose to be captured by ?.

As Waynepoo, said "Another storm in a tea cup! Was not an issue on this forum until mentioned....move on, being too PC is frankly boring. We are dealing with TS remembering a era 70 odd years ago and that's one of the more polite terms the then enemy were called, it's referring to then not now".

 

[zblang]

Incidentally I have been on this forum for 11 years and dont recall any indication of a Japanese member. There are however a few Chinese members. If I was a Chinerse member with not so good English I would consider coming on and saying "I am Chinese. The word Nanking says it all for me, far more than Jap".

So if a group isn't represented here, we can call them anything we want? Do we have African American members? If not, do we start using the "N word"? I am just bot buying this argument. What the Japanese did to the allies and to the Chinese is unspeakable, but those who participated in those actions are not the majority - they weren't then and certainly aren't now. What the Germans did to the Jews, gypsies, etc is equally awful, but I for one have zero issues with modern day Germany and it's citizens and don't call them derogatory names due to what their ancestors did.

As Waynepoo, said "Another storm in a tea cup! Was not an issue on this forum until mentioned....move on, being too PC is frankly boring. We are dealing with TS remembering a era 70 odd years ago and that's one of the more polite terms the then enemy were called, it's referring to then not now".

This also never made sense to me - if you personally don't like the discussion or don't want to participate, it sure is easy not to. Discussions are what makes the world go round. Just because a topic is controversial or makes people uncomfortable doesn't mean it should be ignored and doesn't mean we should just move on and not discuss them. This is not a PC issue - it's a matter if respect and what is proper and what is not. I am not saying there is a 100% right answer...which is why we discuss

 

[theBaron]

...Remember this point. "Jap" is only considered a slur because of the Japanese soldiers despicable behaviour during WW2...

Not so. The term was current in Western usage long before WWII, going back to the West's earliest contacts with Japan, and its context was always racist in nature, a denigration of "the yellow race". Japanese residents here in the US, including American citizens of Japanese ancestry, were called "Japs" long before Japan went to war with us.

In a historical context, I have no problem with the term, or any other, as for example in a quote of a conversation between Marines in the Pacific during the war. But if you have a model of a Zero and you post, "Here's my Jap Zero", it's as if you posted a model of an Israeli Merkava and said, "Here's my kike tank." That kind of use is a gratuitous insult that has no place in reasoned discussion, whatever personal experience one may have had.