The new 80th Anniversary Shermans are historically WRONG! (1 Viewer)

[binder001]

The thread on the new King & Country Shermans show some nicely done models, but they are deeply WRONG for what they are supposed to be:

Point #1, the models shown are M4A3's from early production. Front end is about the same but the rear end and rear deck are very different to accommodate the Ford liquid-cooled engine instead of the air-cooled radials in the M4s and M4A1s that were the standard US Army tank for Operation Neptune. The M4A3s had not left the USA in 1944 as they had been held back as training tanks. The M4 and M4A1 were the standard tanks for ETOUSA units going into Normandy. The M4 and M4A1 shared common engines and most parts were the same - this was important to invasion planners who were going to support armored units on the end of a complex supply chain. Even the 300 M4A1s with 76mm guns that had arrived in England were left behind as nobody wanted to introduce a new tank with a different gun so late in the preparations (training crews and adding new ammo to the supply line). SOME early M4A3s DID go to Europe in 1945 due to high US tank losses in the Ardennes campaign, but those had all the late features added.

Point #2 - the tanks lack the later features seen on the tanks in Normandy. The models show the tanks with the early 75mm gun mount with narrow gun shield (M34 type). They also lack the added applique armor over the hull ammo racks. The M34A1 gun mount (with wider gun shield and direct sight telescope) and applique armor were either on the tanks shipped to the UK for Normandy, or the parts had been shipped to depots in England where they were installed under a priority "blitz" program.

So the chances of seeing on of the modelled tanks with US forces in the Normandy campaign were virtually non-existent.

Among historians and modelers, none of this information is difficult to learn. A few minutes of research or a few questions on the forums would have allowed K&C to produce an accurate model! Instead, it is a pig with lipstick. It wouldn't be so insulting to the customers if it hadn't been announced as a special model to commemorate a specific time and place.

Sorry to do this. I am ready for my flames now.

Gary B.

 

[Dragoon]

Uh oh, here we go...

 

[wayne556517]

Here we go

6324925_0 by Wayne 556517, on Flickr

 

[joesgis]

I'm no expert on these things although I have collected them for years, but I would have liked to have seen some applique armor in the form of track appliques used on the new Shermans. Unique details like that really make tanks pop, for me at least. But I do understand the price goes up with added details.

 

[Barkmann]

The thread on the new King & Country Shermans show some nicely done models, but they are deeply WRONG for what they are supposed to be:

Point #1, the models shown are M4A3's from early production. Front end is about the same but the rear end and rear deck are very different to accommodate the Ford liquid-cooled engine instead of the air-cooled radials in the M4s and M4A1s that were the standard US Army tank for Operation Neptune. The M4A3s had not left the USA in 1944 as they had been held back as training tanks. The M4 and M4A1 were the standard tanks for ETOUSA units going into Normandy. The M4 and M4A1 shared common engines and most parts were the same - this was important to invasion planners who were going to support armored units on the end of a complex supply chain. Even the 300 M4A1s with 76mm guns that had arrived in England were left behind as nobody wanted to introduce a new tank with a different gun so late in the preparations (training crews and adding new ammo to the supply line). SOME early M4A3s DID go to Europe in 1945 due to high US tank losses in the Ardennes campaign, but those had all the late features added.

Point #2 - the tanks lack the later features seen on the tanks in Normandy. The models show the tanks with the early 75mm gun mount with narrow gun shield (M34 type). They also lack the added applique armor over the hull ammo racks. The M34A1 gun mount (with wider gun shield and direct sight telescope) and applique armor were either on the tanks shipped to the UK for Normandy, or the parts had been shipped to depots in England where they were installed under a priority "blitz" program.

So the chances of seeing on of the modelled tanks with US forces in the Normandy campaign were virtually non-existent.

Among historians and modelers, none of this information is difficult to learn. A few minutes of research or a few questions on the forums would have allowed K&C to produce an accurate model! Instead, it is a pig with lipstick. It wouldn't be so insulting to the customers if it hadn't been announced as a special model to commemorate a specific time and place.

Sorry to do this. I am ready for my flames now.

Gary B.

Agree with above, i put my thoughts on the forum about the gun mantle in the original post, i also asked if the tank was all metal, as i thought there had been a reuse of the turret from the Sherman DD093, which has the old mantle and is also not the correct mantle, but possibly the casting was taken from that, only a suggestion.

Now where - Gary B is going to get a lot of abuse, lets try to avoid that, i feel like King Canute saying that as there are too many 'apologists and defectionists' on the forum when it comes to issues like this. Lets argue the facts, simply are the statements above true? Is the new Sherman not accurate? Yes or no? i think we should leave that to K & C to answer?

There is some mock ups on a 'gamers' website using a similar looking tank, but looking at some of the other tanks and vehicles on there and the info on the vehicles, it is more like a fantasy site.

There are lots of pictures of the actual tank and also models made by plastic modellier from kits, they are real rivet counters and i would say generally very knowledgeable and super geeks on tanks like the Sherman. Just use the 'google machine' for your self and check.

 

[Francis]

Gary B. demonstrates a certain relevance in his com...
he points out the fact that, perhaps, the K&C Shermans would completely correspond to historical reality...
It is true that at this level of quality and price, we can expect a complete historical reality of the model presented...
I think that K&C knows what he is doing and his experience with figurines and the military cannot be called into question...
I agree, K&C must respond to such a militarily and historically specific communication and I am certain that it will do so...
As for denigrating the latter's com, it would be very inappropriate because Gary B.'s arguments are very precise and are undoubtedly the result of in-depth knowledge or research.
So, no, I am not denigrating your statements, and on the contrary, it opens a rather interesting debate...

 

[RISORGIMENTO]

I want to say a few things and I usually don't post here especially when there is someone more expert than me.
It seems to me that some criticisms are based on serious arguments and due that I’d wish to purchase one of the two amazing Shermans, I'd ask my friend Andy equally seriously will consider with his staff of experts the topics discussed and, if still in time, operate to give to collectors a product closer to historical accuracy.
I am sure that K&C will be able to do that and will confirm itself as a leader it has always been in the TS world.
With respect and affection
Carlo
PS: I believe that a specific version of such a famous Tank cannot have more interpretations than how as left the factory.

 

[jazzeum]

I want to say a few things and I usually don't post here especially when there is someone more expert than me.
It seems to me that some criticisms are based on serious arguments and due that I’d wish to purchase one of the two amazing Shermans, I'd ask my friend Andy equally seriously will consider with his staff of experts the topics discussed and, if still in time, operate to give to collectors a product closer to historical accuracy.
I am sure that K&C will be able to do that and will confirm itself as a leader it has always been in the TS world.
With respect and affection
Carlo
PS: I believe that a specific version of such a famous Tank cannot have more interpretations than how as left the factory.

Carlo,

These are slated for a June release so I’m pretty sure all the tanks have already been made so Andy would have to withdraw them, have them re-sculpted or re-designed and then manufactured. Without taking a position one way or the other on the questions raised by Gary I can’t imagine that K & C would withdraw them.

 

[RISORGIMENTO]

Carlo,

These are slated for a June release so I’m pretty sure all the tanks have already been made so Andy would have to withdraw them, have them re-sculpted or re-designed and then manufactured. Without taking a position one way or the other on the questions raised by Gary I can’t imagine that K & C would withdraw them.

...if this then the word passes to the collectors, the majority are not even in this Forum and will not be influenced by any criticism
cheers

 

[tmanthegreat]

Not to wade too far into this (I’m not quite the expert on the myriad of M4 Sherman tank variants) but upon first seeing the promo images of the new K&C Shermans, I was surprised by how closely they resembled my Walterstons 1/32 scale diecast Forces of Valor M4(75) Sherman tank model…

The FOV model represents a U.S. M4(75) Sherman Medium Tank with VVSS Suspension, supposedly from the 753rd Tank Battalion, stationed along the Gustav Line in Italy around 1944. It’s actually a great model with diecast upper hull, turret, and gun as well as having all opening hatches, rotating cupola, opening engine compartment with removable engine and optional metal tracks.

But I digress…

 

[binder001]

Not to wade too far into this (I’m not quite the expert on the myriad of M4 Sherman tank variants) but upon first seeing the promo images of the new K&C Shermans, I was surprised by how closely they resembled my Walterstons 1/32 scale diecast Forces of Valor M4(75) Sherman tank model…

The FOV model represents a U.S. M4(75) Sherman Medium Tank with VVSS Suspension, supposedly from the 753rd Tank Battalion, stationed along the Gustav Line in Italy around 1944. It’s actually a great model with diecast upper hull, turret, and gun as well as having all opening hatches, rotating cupola, opening engine compartment with removable engine and optional metal tracks.

But I digress…

Yes, the recent FoV M4 looks pretty correct for what it claims to be. It is an M4 from an earlier production batch, but those were common in Italy as they were using a lot of older M4 and M4A1 types while the troops gathering for Operation Neptune got the priority on the upgraded M4s. Many of those original tanks served in Italy until the end of the war. Some even came into Southern France during Operation Dragoon and served with the US Seventh Army.

Gary B

 

[Barkmann]

Not to wade too far into this (I’m not quite the expert on the myriad of M4 Sherman tank variants) but upon first seeing the promo images of the new K&C Shermans, I was surprised by how closely they resembled my Walterstons 1/32 scale diecast Forces of Valor M4(75) Sherman tank model…

The FOV model represents a U.S. M4(75) Sherman Medium Tank with VVSS Suspension, supposedly from the 753rd Tank Battalion, stationed along the Gustav Line in Italy around 1944. It’s actually a great model with diecast upper hull, turret, and gun as well as having all opening hatches, rotating cupola, opening engine compartment with removable engine and optional metal tracks.

But I digress…

Great looking tank, but that is a early version, see below for information on the different gun mantles/mounts, using that model gun mantle/mount was stopped in 1942 and a new version was used, not going to put in all the numbers etc as they are in the info below.
Sherman gun mounts for main guns (free.fr)

 

[Barkmann]

...if this then the word passes to the collectors, the majority are not even in this Forum and will not be influenced by any criticism
cheers

I agree with the sentiment, but it does not mean those on the forum are more informed. Those not on the forum, as collectors, can be experts or have some level of knowledge on military vehicles etc, but just not be on the forum or indeed the internet. They can have the same issues with the release, the forum is just a channel for airing those issues, not the cause of the issues.

 

[arnhem44mad]

Just popping in. Looks like nothing ever changes with regards to 'quality' or 'accuracy'.

Scott