Toy Soldier Secondary Market – Is it a “Buyers” or “Sellers” Market? Why? (1 Viewer)

[larso]

"Yesterday I tried to sell my soul to santa."

Not surprised, that business with the balck cat pointed to this.

 

[Mitch]

last time I checked this was a toy soldier forum for ALL things Toy soldiers. Shame some only want to use it for a platform for selling and ensuring that everyone smiles at everything in association with that aim and, surprisingly, its mainly (with the odd exception) collectors who try to enforce that aim on the whole. If people don't like or perceive these threads are doom and gloom or about price (a very valid and pertinent subject for many like scale detail and accuracy) they should just overlook the threads and find the happy constant corner where the glare from these negative (or so perceived threads) does not affect the vision of the rose tinted glasses.

This is the place where you blow of steam at things you like and dislike about the hobby you can still collect and have a gripe about sections of the hobby that frustrate, anger, bewilder however you deal or describe the issues without having it stifled because some only want it as a Rah Rah platform. That really is artificial and unrealistic to expect or ever to be achieved as we have seen.

It is also interesting the analogy between Glossy and mat collectors but, gloss collectors don't face the regular price hikes and other sales issues that mat collectors do could be one of the reasons for some of the differences plus another could be that there is less expectations on detail and accuracy that is placed on the mat side not only from manufacturers but also collectors. The two are like apples and pears, guitars, cars, mars bars, stereo's, training shows or whatever else is used as an analogy to show toy soldiers are not really that expensive!!!

Back to the original important and interesting question!!! Terry summed it up well its a buyers market primarily on the secondary market whilst its a sellers market because of the imposed price restrictions set by manufacturers on new items
Mitch

 

[Buster]

In Jack's defense, I do tend to exhibit a certain degree of clamness on humid days ..... but I don't know if it has anything to do with my collecting gloss toy soldiers. :wink2:^&grin

B.

 

[Jack]

In Jack's defense, I do tend to exhibit a certain degree of clamness on humid days ..... but I don't know if it has anything to do with my collecting gloss toy soldiers. :wink2:^&grin

B.

My God ... I've become a joke. When did this happen?{sm4}

 

[zulucollector]

As a relative newbie collector ie less than 2 years, my views are slightly different. The reason I waited to start collecting was the sticker shock of paying 35+ a figure and 200+ for an AFV. How could u ever build a meaningful collection at those prices especially when most of the beautiful pieces had been retired. I was able to jump start my collection with an estate sale of britains Zulu which were priced at cost and most had been retired. Starting late into any genre is pricey as the retired items are difficult to get and correspondingly pricey. However I am benefiting from it being a buyer market outside any of the "elite items as I have gotten most of my retired K&C and Figarti pieces at reasonable prices with most near original cost and a couple below. Outside of one prolific ebay seller from the US, I believe who markups up 2-5x the historical price, you can find deals. I think tracking down retired items is one of the fun parts of collecting; if it was not a buyers market I would not have gotten started collecting matte figures... also the TF forum classifieds is another avenue as many serious collectors with the most appealing items use it to trim or divest their collections and seem to more motivated to get a deal done ie price to sell...

 

[jazzeum]

A collector I discussed this very issue with argued that because painters (although not all glossy collectors paint of course) have a creative outlet beyond the act of collecting, they are less frustrated by the ups and downs of the hobby. The view was that if you 'just' collect and you are not part of a community of collectors that you socialise with, your engagement can be dominated by the actual act of purchasing to the exclusion of all else. As for the clamness of glossy collectors - yes, they do seem a rather contented lot. Perhaps with the accuracy issue off the table there is less to argue about. I have heard it argued that glossy collecting is a different hobby which might mean it attracts a different type of person. It would appear to be a hobby that contains both the cheapest and dearest sets so maybe there is more room for everyone whereas matte figures tend to be closer in price. .

Some glossy collectors are, in fact, converted matte collectors. For example, Louis and Lawrence Lo and I used to be rather big matte collectors. There are also those that collect both. Gloss have a certain charm that you cannot find in matte. Who could not look at Martyn's figures and not be entranced by Trophy. I wouldn't say it's a different hobby because whether you purchase retired companies like Trophy or newer ones like Somerset, Hocker or Hiriart, you're paying high prices and I don't see the moaning that goes on here about prices.

 

[Jack]

Some glossy collectors are, in fact, converted matte collectors. For example, Louis and Lawrence Lo and I used to be rather big matte collectors. There are also those that collect both. Gloss have a certain charm that you cannot find in matte. Who could not look at Martyn's figures and not be entranced by Trophy. I wouldn't say it's a different hobby because whether you purchase retired companies like Trophy or newer ones like Somerset, Hocker or Hiriart, you're paying high prices and I don't see the moaning that goes on here about prices.

Maybe you're all just great blokes. ^&grin

You are right about glossies having charm. They do have that certain something. I would buy more glossies but part of the fun for me is the visit to the shop. Nevertheless I must get the Visa out and pick up some more Tommy Atkins in a few days!

 

[desk11desk12]

I really don’t have an axe to grind here. I’m just trying to make sense of the new toy soldier collector's environment.

WHY?
The simple question “if the market is robust as defined by strong or even steady retail sales”, then why are the secondary market prices poor?

THE NEW COLLECTOR???
The only answer for this maybe that today’s production volume has been cut down significantly compared to say 2005-2009 due the new economics (higher labor/ material prices, ensure profit margin integrity, depressed collectors discretionary income). The market has “right sized” creating a new equilibrium and new boutique collector profile with many others leaving or limiting their purchase in toy soldiers.

MARKET PARADYME SHIFT ?
If so, then it is possible that aggregate retail market sales could be stable but the secondary market could have taken a big hit because actual number of collectors have decreased. This reduction could have been the exodus of current toy collectors plus the barrier of entry to new collectors caused by higher retail prices.

REASON FOR LOWER SECONDARY MARKET PRICES ARE ….??
Secondary market suffers because there are fewer collectors in the market despite healthy retail sales market. It becomes “supply and demand” too many toy soldiers produced from 2005-2009 being dumped on the market trying to attract a dwindling number of collectors. Especially, since the new collector is more eclectic/ boutique in nature and willing to pay for higher perceived quality. Therefore you have a glut and lower secondary market prices in this newly redefined toy soldiers industry profile.

I wish there was a way to validate this hypothesis.

BTW, if there an opportunity here to attract the collector leaving the market with a quality product at 2009 prices? If so, will it require yet another paradyme shift in both manufacturing technology/ processes, marketing and sales distribution channel system to accomplish this challenge?

What are your thoughts?

Carlos

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I really don’t have an axe to grind here. I’m just trying to make sense of the new toy soldier collector's environment.

WHY?
The simple question “if the market is robust as defined by strong or even steady retail sales”, then why are the secondary market prices poor?

THE NEW COLLECTOR???
The only answer for this maybe that today’s production volume has been cut down significantly compared to say 2005-2009 due the new economics (higher labor/ material prices, ensure profit margin integrity, depressed collectors discretionary income). The market has “right sized” creating a new equilibrium and new boutique collector profile with many others leaving or limiting their purchase in toy soldiers.

MARKET PARADYME SHIFT ?
If so, then it is possible that aggregate retail market sales could be stable but the secondary market could have taken a big hit because actual number of collectors have decreased. This reduction could have been the exodus of current toy collectors plus the barrier of entry to new collectors caused by higher retail prices.

REASON FOR LOWER SECONDARY MARKET PRICES ARE ….??
Secondary market suffers because there are fewer collectors in the market despite healthy retail sales market. It becomes “supply and demand” too many toy soldiers produced from 2005-2009 being dumped on the market trying to attract a dwindling number of collectors. Especially, since the new collector is more eclectic/ boutique in nature and willing to pay for higher perceived quality. Therefore you have a glut and lower secondary market prices in this newly redefined toy soldiers industry profile.

I wish there was a way to validate this hypothesis. What are your thoughts?

Carlos

It seems to be my fault. I didn't realize my selfishness could cause an entire industry to spiral into the ground. But stating it that way it sounds like Andy thinks prices are already being kept artificially high. Sounds like he wants me to subsidize K&C for the sake of the TS industry. And then he accuses me of "Terry can be as selective as he chooses and buy just what he likes…providing, of course, if the price is right." Yes Andy - that is exactly what customers do and is exactly what I posted in the original thread on this topic in response to what joegis posted. Please re-read the joegis post carefully to see where I am at in collecting because his summary suits my current position. And no need for the overdone sarcasm. When you try to stamp out a contrary opinion rather than respond to it as an adult, you usually end up with your own boot in your mouth. {eek3}:smile2:

Best wishes and happy collecting
Terry

 

[desk11desk12]

It seems to be my fault. I didn't realize my selfishness could cause an entire industry to spiral into the ground. But stating it that way it sounds like Andy thinks prices are already being kept artificially high. Sounds like he wants me to subsidize K&C for the sake of the TS industry. And then he accuses me of "Terry can be as selective as he chooses and buy just what he likes…providing, of course, if the price is right." Yes Andy - that is exactly what customers do and is exactly what I posted in the original thread on this topic in response to what joegis posted. Please re-read the joegis post carefully to see where I am at in collecting because his summary suits my current position. And no need for the overdone sarcasm. When you try to stamp out a contrary opinion rather than respond to it as an adult, you usually end up with your own boot in your mouth. {eek3}:smile2:

Best wishes and happy collecting
Terry

Terry,

I'm confused. Are you addressing Andy as a response to my post??? Was it intended as a response to my post too? I haven't read Andy's thread yet.

Carlos

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry,

I'm confused. Are you addressing Andy as a response to my post??? Was it intended as a response to my post too? I haven't read Andy's thread yet.

Carlos

Andy started a new thread rather than post on with your thread - he usually starts his own thread when he doesn't like a thread. My post is in response to your question on the secondary market and to Andy's side thread.

Terry

 

[desk11desk12]

Andy started a new thread rather than post on with your thread - he usually starts his own thread when he doesn't like a thread. My post is in response to your question on the secondary market and to Andy's side thread.

Terry

Cool Terry

No prob.

Carlos

 

[uksubs]

Hey guys:

I've been watching eBay & Treefrog Classifieds" for a while now and wondering what your opinion is?

Has it changed over the last couple of years, or has it?

Carlos

Well Carlos I would say it a buyer market at the moment and would not recommend anyone to sell there stuff at the moment .

 

[Warrior]

It seems to be my fault. I didn't realize my selfishness could cause an entire industry to spiral into the ground.

Glad you finally manned up and accepted responsibility for all this.......:tongue:

Carlos, to answer you question regarding the secondary market prices; over the past year or so, I've been offered a large amount of collections, as I am sure Treefrog, Sierra, Hobby Bunker, etc, etc, also have, much more than in the past.

There are several reasons for this; long time collectors are downsizing their collections, changing era's/manufacturers, getting older, moving into smaller homes/condos, getting sick and going into assisted living and last but sadly, passing away.

I have turned down more collections than I've bought as again, it all depends on what is being offered to me, some items move and are in high demand, others are dogs. There is demand for older sets, but again, it is a case by case scenario.



And as far as my comments about collectors at shows and their general attitude; they seem happy to be there, happy to buy new product, happy to talk toy soldiers with me, few if any of them are walking around torked off with a hair across their ***; if some view this as trying to create a false sense of happiness in the hobby instead of doom and gloom, then I'm not sure what to tell you, it is what it is, I can only report back as to what I see, hate to spread goodness and optimism, but there you go..............:salute::

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Glad you finally manned up and accepted responsibility for all this.......:tongue:

Carlos, to answer you question regarding the secondary market prices; over the past year or so, I've been offered a large amount of collections, as I am sure Treefrog, Sierra, Hobby Bunker, etc, etc, also have, much more than in the past.

There are several reasons for this; long time collectors are downsizing their collections, changing era's/manufacturers, getting older, moving into smaller homes/condos, getting sick and going into assisted living and last but sadly, passing away.

I have turned down more collections than I've bought as again, it all depends on what is being offered to me, some items move and are in high demand, others are dogs. There is demand for older sets, but again, it is a case by case scenario.



And as far as my comments about collectors at shows and their general attitude; they seem happy to be there, happy to buy new product, happy to talk toy soldiers with me, few if any of them are walking around torked off with a hair across their ***; if some view this as trying to create a false sense of happiness in the hobby instead of doom and gloom, then I'm not sure what to tell you, it is what it is, I can only report back as to what I see, hate to spread goodness and optimism, but there you go..............:salute::

As usual, a balanced rational view. From my limited vantage point (forum, ebay, a few dealers opinion) that is also my view of the market and my collecting plans are influenced by it. I am much more selective in terms of historical accuracy and quality of sculpting and detail on the pieces - as well as what I consider to be value. (As for my confession - it was a plea bargain for time served {eek3}^&grin

Terry

 

[Warrior]

As usual, a balanced rational view. From my limited vantage point (forum, ebay, a few dealers opinion) that is also my view of the market and my collecting plans are influenced by it. I am much more selective in terms of historical accuracy and quality of sculpting and detail on the pieces - as well as what I consider to be value. (As for my confession - it was a plea bargain for time served {eek3}^&grin

Terry

Terry,
I can honestly tell you in the past, I rarely turned down collections as long as the price is right; now even if the price is right, I pass on collections for various reasons. One of the biggest ones is if I don't have a customer base for most of the items in a collection, then I pass.

I don't use Ebay, never have, might in the future, but for now, I don't use it, so if I don't have a market for items, then I pass.

Another dealer I know wanted me to go halfs with him on a massive collection of glossy Trophy, Britains, Imperial, etc, etc, over 1,500 figures, I told him thanks but no thanks, he bought it though, good luck to him...........................

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry,
I can honestly tell you in the past, I rarely turned down collections as long as the price is right; now even if the price is right, I pass on collections for various reasons. One of the biggest ones is if I don't have a customer base for most of the items in a collection, then I pass.

I don't use Ebay, never have, might in the future, but for now, I don't use it, so if I don't have a market for items, then I pass.

Another dealer I know wanted me to go halfs with him on a massive collection of glossy Trophy, Britains, Imperial, etc, etc, over 1,500 figures, I told him thanks but no thanks, he bought it though, good luck to him...........................

You have accurately described how I'm collecting as a long time collector as did joegis way back in post #2. I just bought the K&C NE030 camel and rider to add to my small Napoleon in Egypt collection. I carefully considered whether I really wanted an NE camel, which of the four was the most historically accurate and the best sculpt and pose. Also whether the price was acceptable and where the money was going to come from. For me, NE030 was the best by far. The money will come from the sale of two AK Camel figures. And my purchase was of a single figure which will get my full attention when it comes as opposed to when I used to get several items in one shipment and it was more an exercise in quantity.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Very interesting as always George. Good to get the view of someone on the front line so to speak. You're the guy actually involved in the buying and selling in this hobby and can speak with authority as compared to some of us pc jockeys. Funny isn't it that if you post on prices and quality you are doom and gloom and if you are positive and upbeat you are ra ra or wearing rose tinted glasses! Makes you wonder if we have free speech at all mate! Sorry you couldnt make it to London George but hope you csn make it one day.

Cheers

Rob

Glad you finally manned up and accepted responsibility for all this.......:tongue:

Carlos, to answer you question regarding the secondary market prices; over the past year or so, I've been offered a large amount of collections, as I am sure Treefrog, Sierra, Hobby Bunker, etc, etc, also have, much more than in the past.

There are several reasons for this; long time collectors are downsizing their collections, changing era's/manufacturers, getting older, moving into smaller homes/condos, getting sick and going into assisted living and last but sadly, passing away.

I have turned down more collections than I've bought as again, it all depends on what is being offered to me, some items move and are in high demand, others are dogs. There is demand for older sets, but again, it is a case by case scenario.



And as far as my comments about collectors at shows and their general attitude; they seem happy to be there, happy to buy new product, happy to talk toy soldiers with me, few if any of them are walking around torked off with a hair across their ***; if some view this as trying to create a false sense of happiness in the hobby instead of doom and gloom, then I'm not sure what to tell you, it is what it is, I can only report back as to what I see, hate to spread goodness and optimism, but there you go..............:salute::

 

[Warrior]

Very interesting as always George. Good to get the view of someone on the front line so to speak. You're the guy actually involved in the buying and selling in this hobby and can speak with authority as compared to some of us pc jockeys. Funny isn't it that if you post on prices and quality you are doom and gloom and if you are positive and upbeat you are ra ra or wearing rose tinted glasses! Makes you wonder if we have free speech at all mate! Sorry you couldnt make it to London George but hope you csn make it one day.

Cheers

Rob

Thanks for the kind words Rob, I'm just one guy with one opinion, if my sales were in toilet, I'd be the first one to tell you.

Sorry I missed the trip, I had planned on coming over with Nicolas from Crown Miniatures to assist him at the show, then join in the group activities and also sneaking over to Waterloo for a couple of days, but we just couldn't pull it off this time.

I will get to that side of the pond, guaranteed.......

 

[uksubs]

Very interesting as always George. Good to get the view of someone on the front line so to speak. You're the guy actually involved in the buying and selling in this hobby and can speak with authority as compared to some of us pc jockeys. Funny isn't it that if you post on prices and quality you are doom and gloom and if you are positive and upbeat you are ra ra or wearing rose tinted glasses! Makes you wonder if we have free speech at all mate! Sorry you couldnt make it to London George but hope you csn make it one day.

Cheers

Rob

Rob think it would be good if we could hear the opinions of KC UK on how they see the UK toy soldier hobby at the moment don't you to give a different opinion .As for ra ra or doom and gloom just think it down to how much money you got to spend and wanting value for money nothing wrong with that