VEH017 Winter PzKpw IV Ausf F2 with Long Barrel 75mm and Winterketten (3 Viewers)

[Baymax]

I would not bet on that:rolleyes2:....I think it will be very similar to the short barrel version having panel lines that are just TOO DARK......I also was disappointed with the short barrel winter Panzer IV....and that's why I am passing on this one.

It seems a way to paint that both FL and Figarti accepted as standard. Both companies use that way to paint their tanks. I was looking on youtube yesterday and saw a modeller painting a tank and that was the way he defined areas before painting the main colours on

They look good all the same though

 

[Vezzolf]

It seems a way to paint that both FL and Figarti accepted as standard. Both companies use that way to paint their tanks. I was looking on youtube yesterday and saw a modeller painting a tank and that was the way he defined areas before painting the main colours on

They look good all the same though

Yes Baymax I know that applying darker high-lites on raised panel lines is a standard method in painting AFV models....But in my opinion this was over-done....WAY OVERDONE....The model would have been much better with LESS....What bothers me somewhat is that it was presented on the FL WEBSITE as having a more white-washed finish which would have been BETTER......That's what we expected but not what was produced.....All I'm saying is it would be better if the paint was done as depicted so that we can be assured of what we are purchasing.....No further explanations from me as i do not want to harp on this point in respect to Matt and FL.

 

[jazzeum]

The coloring is pretty much exactly the same as VEH016 Winter Panzer IV Ausf F1. See image below as well as BladeShoot's images in the other thread. He's a professional photographer it seems so that's how these models photograph. As of this morning there are less than 10 left in any case....

I'm at a loss to understand how only two days after this was announced that it's already out of stock. Moreover, between the time of the announcement and scarcely more than 12 hours later, only 10 remained.

Was this pre-sold to some so that by the time you made the actual announcement, there were very little left?

Brad

 

[bradleyl30]

I'm at a loss to understand how only two days after this was announced that it's already out of stock. Moreover, between the time of the announcement and scarcely more than 12 hours later, only 10 remained.

Was this pre-sold to some so that by the time you made the actual announcement, there were very little left?

Brad

I am pretty frustrated as well. A month ago I told my preferred dealer I wanted one, but I did not put the actual deposit down.

I received a message from him yesterday apologizing, but his order had been slashed to only two instead of the much larger expected order. He is trying to find me one, but at this point it seems I will miss out.

I am a really loyal FL collector, especially of the Stalingrad line. It is very disappointing that one vehicle that I really anticipated I will not even have a chance to purchase.

 

[katana]

Why must you insist upon making unsupported alligations about communications of which you have no knowledge? I have received direct responses to questions and problems from both Brian Levy and Rick Wang ; as I am sure other Forum members have. Why would Matt be any different in responding to a customers questions and concerns?

The question I asked Matt was, what are the dimensions of the First Legion Panzer IV F1, not a question about scale. My example was 8mm short of what it should have been; a not insignificant deviation, the height of a figures head at 60 mm.I expect the problem was caused by a manufacturing defect; which I am trying to confirm with Matt.

1/30 scale is not a single scale; but has become a range of figure and vehicle sizes from 1/31 to 1/27, depending upon the various manufacturers idiosyncratic definition of scale and size. WB, FL and Kronprinz make 58-62 mm WW II figures by actual measure. K&C, TCS, HB, Figarti, Patriot and TG make /made 65-68 mm WW II figures by actual measure. I do not apply scale to figures as they can vary in size; as does human height. I apply scale to vehicles and weapons which have fixed and documented dimensions. Size deviations of polystone due to shrinkage is well known. Size deviations in a model built up fron resin subassemblies is unusual; especially an 8 mm variance. You do not find this size of varience in 1/35 scale models.

I am unaware of posting a photo where figures heads hit the roof. Do you mean the deck of the Panzer or the roof of the turret?. I use 58-60 mm figures with 1/31 to 1/29 scale armor. I use 65-68 mm figures with 1/28 to 1/26 armor and I use 68-72 mm figures with 1/25 to 1/24 scale armor. The figure sizes used with the respective scales is accurate for the range of human male height norms.

FYI your understanding of scale is in error. 1/29 scale is not smaller than 1/30 scale as you stated, but the reverse. A lower number means a larger model i.e. 1/18 scale is larger than 1/24 scale. 1/18 scale is size compatable with 90 mm figures. 1/24 scale is size compatible with 75 mm figures etc.

I hope this missive clarifies the points you raised that were incorrect. I suggest in future if you claim to have seen a photo of mine with a model with very oversize figures relative to the vehicle; that you post it or link to it to validate you opinion.

Probably not though from the manufacturer. Figarti rarely replied on their painting issues even when you contacted them and complained so, good luck thinking they would post measurements. The collectors showcase made a noise I see regarding scale as I have just read through some threads about their scale. The Tigers and king tigers were true blue and bang on 1/30th scale... That made me chuckle. King and country never comments on scale so, why would First Legion post them?

The FL models for me are mostly plastic of any source name but, essentially plastic/resin if you like that sound better. They have some PE parts so, I would not envisage issues you have raised which I do not accept as a reasoning for scale distortions. At least not where one release is 1/30th and one can be 1/28th. small deviations and they are very small can occur in a run but, having multiples of some items its rare to see it let alone accept it as a reason

I also must admit to laughing when you had figures nearly touching the roof. Then your using the wrong figures that are stated as 1/30th scale. I read big 1/30th yesterday posted without humour I would have liked to have seen that picture.

I again can not see the reasoning behind paying $300 for a model and then return it because you state its a few mm out and you round it up to 1/31 when your happy using 1/24th tanks with 1/27th or 1/28th scale TCS and king and country figures.

It makes little sense to me and that comment surely must be seen as baiting FL considering my recent explanations of what baiting is

 

[braddinpa]

I hear you Brad. (both). I am amazed how quickly it sold out. Good for FL. But I suspect it will leave some people disappointed. Hopefully they will do some sort of additional run. Maybe they will end up tweaking their production run until they get that sweet spot so they don't have too much inventory, but is sells at a reasonable rate. But I guess finding that sweet spot is the hard thing to find.

 

[chemiebay]

I'm at a loss to understand how only two days after this was announced that it's already out of stock. Moreover, between the time of the announcement and scarcely more than 12 hours later, only 10 remained.

Was this pre-sold to some so that by the time you made the actual announcement, there were very little left?

Brad

Easy to understand: A low production number will guarantee a sold out in a couple of days.

 

[katana]

Scarcity increases demand. The next lot will have a higher price . I discussed marketing with a far eastern merchant. The principal is to produce small lots of very high quality products and sell them at low prices just above cost to create demand and establish a customer base; than you gradually increase prices on new models.

The initial prices of First Legion Panzers was $299 USD. The price now is $349 USD. The next lot; with some incremental improvments and different versions and features will probably cost $399 USD. Toy Soldiers are a luxury not a commodity. Luxury items are produced in small quantities to give the impression they are rare and in great demand to justify price increases.

First Legion has been very sucessful with their excellent products. Figarti's departure from the market, even if only temporary; creates an opportunity for expansion and that requires funding to impliment. First Legion is now the only producer of true 1/30 scale Armor and needs to take advantage of the opportunity before Figarti recovers or W. Britains moves into Armor as they already have with Artilley. Business at the higher levels is a Chess game and First Legion has demonstrated some shrewd moves IMO.

 

[sammy719]

Scarcity increases demand. The next lot will have a higher price . I discussed marketing with a far eastern merchant. The principal is to produce small lots of very high quality products and sell them at low prices just above cost to create demand and establish a customer base; than you gradually increase prices on new models.

The initial prices of First Legion Panzers was $299 USD. The price now is $349 USD. The next lot; with some incremental improvments and different versions and features will probably cost $399 USD. Toy Soldiers are a luxury not a commodity. Luxury items are produced in small quantities to give the impression they are rare and in great demand to justify price increases.

First Legion has been very sucessful with their excellent products. Figarti's departure from the market, even if only temporary; creates an opportunity for expansion and that requires funding to impliment. First Legion is now the only producer of true 1/30 scale Armor and needs to take advantage of the opportunity before Figarti recovers or W. Britains moves into Armor as they already have with Artilley. Business at the higher levels is a Chess game and First Legion has demonstrated some shrewd moves IMO.

Katana, what Panzers are you referring to? the price has always been 299.00 the only vehicles that were above that price have been the Command Halftrack/Prime mover, so not sure where you are buying your product but First legion vehicles way back with the intial Stugs/Panzer III, 232 were 299.00 the company has kept that same price for years now which I commend them on that. now will the price go up because of demand?? maybe, but the old adage is "you get what you pay for" comes to mind, and as far as your statement about the next lot being higher in price is uncalled for, so unless you are now speaking on behalf of Matt/ Constantine which I doubt you are I think you should get your facts strait from the source before making statements like that...Sammy

 

[katana]

Katana, what Panzers are you referring to? the price has always been 299.00 the only vehicles that were above that price have been the Command Halftrack/Prime mover, so not sure where you are buying your product but First legion vehicles way back with the intial Stugs/Panzer III, 232 were 299.00 the company has kept that same price for years now which I commend them on that. now will the price go up because of demand?? maybe, but the old adage is "you get what you pay for" comes to mind, and as far as your statement about the next lot being higher in price is uncalled for, so unless you are now speaking on behalf of Matt/ Constantine which I doubt you are I think you should get your facts strait from the source before making statements like that...Sammy

I am describing standard business practise for a luxury product. You yourself said the Command Halftrack is $349 USD and thus agree the price has increased. Producing small lots to create a sense of rarity and desirability is a commen practise. Figarti did the exact same thing, limit production to 100 pieces and a year later come out with a repaint of the same piece at a higher price.

I am trying to explain why things are done the way they are done; their is method to the madness!
I have no relation with First Legion or Matt or any inside information. I am as free to speculate as is anyone else. My theory of why a small lot was made and sold out very rapidly is as valid as anyones and it is based upon standard marketing models.

I did not make a statement that First Legion (would) raise prices. I said that First Legion would (probably) raise prices on an improved model and stated an increment equivalent to the last increase. Please do not claim that I said something that I did not.

 

[FirstLegion]

The initial prices of First Legion Panzers was $299 USD. The price now is $349 USD. .

While there is much truth in what you say regarding business strategies meant to gain market share, our vehicles started out five years ago at $299 and have remained the same price. The command version of our 251 was $350 but only because it included an extra figure, the radio operator, that the other two variants did not include. Is it time for a price increase? Probably, but we have resisted this for years and will continue to try and do so. Our philosophy as a company is to provide the most value possible to our customers and we feel that we consistently achieve this with both our figures and our vehicles, with the quality of each far exceeding the price at which we sell them.

I only ask that if you are going to make such posts that you do so with the correct facts and in this case your facts regarding our pricing is incorrect.

Matt

 

[sammy719]

I am describing standard business practise for a luxury product. You yourself said the Command Halftrack is $349 USD and thus agree the price has increased. Producing small lots to create a sense of rarity and desirability is a commen practise. Figarti did the exact same thing, limit production to 100 pieces and a year later come out with a repaint of the same piece at a higher price.

I am trying to explain why things are done the way they are done; their is method to the madness!
I have no relation with First Legion or Matt or any inside information. I am as free to speculate as is anyone else. My theory of why a small lot was made and sold out very rapidly is as valid as anyones and it is based upon standard marketing models.

I did not make a statement that First Legion (would) raise prices. I said that First Legion would (probably) raise prices on an improved model and stated an increment equivalent to the last increase. Please do not claim that I said something that I did not.

Ok Kat, here are you words so we aren't getting misquoted

"Scarcity increases demand. The next lot will have a higher price"..... there is no (probably) in that statement, and also you are again incorrect about the Panzers being 349.00 as I mentioned they never have been, the only reason the Halftrack is 349.00 is it comes with a radio commander in the back of halftrack so there is your extra 49.00 bucks, the Prime Mover is 349.00 is due to the size and detail put into the vehicle, so yes you did make the statement right there in black/white and I did not misquote you, anyway, I do understand your speculation on the where's and how's of the business end of production, let's just hope going forward the production of these fine vehicles go up in numbers so no one has to miss out while staying at a competitive price for all collectors...Sammy

 

[FirstLegion]

I am describing standard business practise for a luxury product. You yourself said the Command Halftrack is $349 USD and thus agree the price has increased.

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that you know very little about our company and our products. The command half track was released a full 6 months before VEH016 and was more expensive because of the second figure it came with. You say you purchased and returned VEH016 and if that is the case then surely you'd know that it's price was 299 not the 350 you are talking about as it was only sold in the last two months. So either a dealer tried to rip you off or you never really bought the model...? Who did you buy it from and return it to? My guess is you won't say.....

 

[katana]

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that you know very little about our company and our products. The command half track was released a full 6 months before VEH016 and was more expensive because of the second figure it came with. You say you purchased and returned VEH016 and if that is the case then surely you'd know that it's price was 299 not the 350 you are talking about as it was only sold in the last two months. So either a dealer tried to rip you off or you never really bought the model...? Who did you buy it from and return it to? My guess is you won't say.....

The FL Panzer IV I purchased and returned cost $299 plus shipping. I never stated that it cost $349 USD. Why do you imply my statements are not true.

Why will you not provide the dimensional information I requested. I as the customer was the injured party receiving a defective product and having to return it at my own expense. Yet you accuse me of perfidity and the seller of ripping me off. You make a number of invalid assumptions and accusations. I was planning to purchase a replacement; as I considered it superior to the Figarti iteration. After this enlightening conversation I will in future purchase Panzers from a company that values its customers and assists in resolving their problems.

 

[Baymax]

To be fair to Katana and I have had to stretch that word to get it added. I think he is grasping at the fact the Sherman came with a full figure firing the MG and was that price. It certainly is not the standard FL price and, he well knows that.

I did mention but, he countered that FL Figarti etc are wide open for scathing comments and rather baiting points which, seemingly slide past the owners and moderators. Nothing even remotely is said in a similar tone to the other companies and when I have tried to make a comment about that fact he ignores questions and answers.

I think interestingly no reply to who from and where the FL product returned was offered in response to FL's question. A poor customer service and respect for customers was the reply. Reading the reply FL were clearly and with no disrespect to customers stating their point.

I think we are clearly seeing what drives the scale and price issues frequenting the forum. The actual topics are valid and entertaining but, it is clear that there is an underlying issue.

 

[Baymax]

Why must you insist upon making unsupported alligations about communications of which you have no knowledge? I have received direct responses to questions and problems from both Brian Levy and Rick Wang ; as I am sure other Forum members have. Why would Matt be any different in responding to a customers questions and concerns?

The question I asked Matt was, what are the dimensions of the First Legion Panzer IV F1, not a question about scale. My example was 8mm short of what it should have been; a not insignificant deviation, the height of a figures head at 60 mm.I expect the problem was caused by a manufacturing defect; which I am trying to confirm with Matt.

1/30 scale is not a single scale; but has become a range of figure and vehicle sizes from 1/31 to 1/27, depending upon the various manufacturers idiosyncratic definition of scale and size. WB, FL and Kronprinz make 58-62 mm WW II figures by actual measure. K&C, TCS, HB, Figarti, Patriot and TG make /made 65-68 mm WW II figures by actual measure. I do not apply scale to figures as they can vary in size; as does human height. I apply scale to vehicles and weapons which have fixed and documented dimensions. Size deviations of polystone due to shrinkage is well known. Size deviations in a model built up fron resin subassemblies is unusual; especially an 8 mm variance. You do not find this size of varience in 1/35 scale models.

I am unaware of posting a photo where figures heads hit the roof. Do you mean the deck of the Panzer or the roof of the turret?. I use 58-60 mm figures with 1/31 to 1/29 scale armor. I use 65-68 mm figures with 1/28 to 1/26 armor and I use 68-72 mm figures with 1/25 to 1/24 scale armor. The figure sizes used with the respective scales is accurate for the range of human male height norms.

FYI your understanding of scale is in error. 1/29 scale is not smaller than 1/30 scale as you stated, but the reverse. A lower number means a larger model i.e. 1/18 scale is larger than 1/24 scale. 1/18 scale is size compatable with 90 mm figures. 1/24 scale is size compatible with 75 mm figures etc.

I hope this missive clarifies the points you raised that were incorrect. I suggest in future if you claim to have seen a photo of mine with a model with very oversize figures relative to the vehicle; that you post it or link to it to validate you opinion.

You are missing my point did they actually discuss scale with you? Not that you received communications that are on other subjects. I have had reply's from owners of the companies about this and that but, that is not what we are talking about and you know that is the case.

Have you read Brian's statements about the scale of his tanks on this forum? I have in recent days been doing a lot of reading on scale issues and I would indeed be interested in what you have to say and add to them about his 1/30th scale bang on issues for the Tigers and subsequent releases.

So, please let us have a conversation without the unsubstantiated things you are raising when points become a little hot. there is plenty to discuss rationally and calmly on these valid and interesting topics

 

[uksubs]

. After this enlightening conversation I will in future purchase Panzers from a company that values its customers and assists in resolving their problems.

Who is that company and will there AFV be 1/30 scale that the question ^&confuse?

 

[Vezzolf]

I'm at a loss to understand how only two days after this was announced that it's already out of stock. Moreover, between the time of the announcement and scarcely more than 12 hours later, only 10 remained.

Was this pre-sold to some so that by the time you made the actual announcement, there were very little left?

Brad

Good Question Brad....It would seem that this "NEW METHOD" creates "panic buying" and ensures that products are nearly sold out before they even hit the market place.^&confuse...NOT GOOD....Hopefully this style of selling will not continue and reasonable amounts of product will be produced for loyal FL customers....NO ONE LIKES BEING PRESSURED TO MAKE RAPID HASTY PURCHASES......If an FL AFV is only being produced on a pre-paid basis adequate notice should given to customers "WELL IN ADVANCE" with a deposit placed/ item reserved in advance.....Then adequate amounts of FL product could be reasonably provided without all the "silly manipulative panic buying and the subsequent moaning from customers"

 

[Vezzolf]

Scarcity increases demand. The next lot will have a higher price . I discussed marketing with a far eastern merchant. The principal is to produce small lots of very high quality products and sell them at low prices just above cost to create demand and establish a customer base; than you gradually increase prices on new models.

The initial prices of First Legion Panzers was $299 USD. The price now is $349 USD. The next lot; with some incremental improvments and different versions and features will probably cost $399 USD. Toy Soldiers are a luxury not a commodity. Luxury items are produced in small quantities to give the impression they are rare and in great demand to justify price increases.

First Legion has been very sucessful with their excellent products. Figarti's departure from the market, even if only temporary; creates an opportunity for expansion and that requires funding to impliment. First Legion is now the only producer of true 1/30 scale Armor and needs to take advantage of the opportunity before Figarti recovers or W. Britains moves into Armor as they already have with Artilley. Business at the higher levels is a Chess game and First Legion has demonstrated some shrewd moves IMO.

You raise an interesting point.....It seems to me at least until now that FL is trying to keep prices fairly level at $299 for AFV's:smile2:....Hopefully FL are not intentionally employing these selling tactics that you describe....Because.... It will lead to anger and disappointment and very likely could back-fire on them with loss of existing loyal customer base.....If otherwise THIS SO CALLED SHORTAGE is due to FL being concerned about over production of product sitting on dealer shelves.....They can take pre-orders with a small deposit made to dealers WELL IN ADVANCE of item production.....That's one way to work it out, others suggestions?? We're listening.........I will remain loyal to any company who is a straight shooter, talks with us and does not manipulate their customers and so far FL has been doing OK with me.

 

[jazzeum]

Good Question Brad....It would seem that this "NEW METHOD" creates "panic buying" and ensures that products are nearly sold out before they even hit the market place.^&confuse...NOT GOOD....Hopefully this style of selling will not continue and reasonable amounts of product will be produced for loyal FL customers....NO ONE LIKES BEING PRESSURED TO MAKE RAPID HASTY PURCHASES......If an FL AFV is only being produced on a pre-paid basis adequate notice should given to customers "WELL IN ADVANCE" with a deposit placed/ item reserved in advance.....Then adequate amounts of FL product could be reasonably provided without all the "silly manipulative panic buying and the subsequent moaning from customers"

Frank, in fairness, it is possible that Matt and Costantin did not anticipate the demand (since Figarti is not currently producing) and that it just sold quickly. Just as with any other company, you set a forecast of what you're going to produce and hope that it's substantially correct. In my business, sometimes our business folks set the number too high, in which case we have to revise the forecast. Other times, we do what FL did and have to have the supplier increase production, provided they have capacity.

What has happened here is not new; we use to see it with Figarti.