VEH017 Winter PzKpw IV Ausf F2 with Long Barrel 75mm and Winterketten (2 Viewers)

[katana]

I know that very briefly some King Tigers were attached to Panzer Lehr, but none carried Panzer Lehr divisional markings and all were abandoned or blown up - none saw service with the division. The only Porsche King Tigers in Normandy were serving with the Heer's 503 Heavy Tank Battalion.

Five Porsche King Tigers of the1 Panzer Abt. 302 FKL 316 attached to Panzer Lehr were deployed on 8-14-44 to defend the town of Chateaudun and the river crossing there.

The King Tigers engaged elements of the U.S. Third Armored Cavalry Regiment on 8-15-44 and exchanged fire with U.S. artillery. The King Tigers than withdrew and suffered from mechanical breakdowns leading to the abandonment of some vehicles.

The King Tigers were camouflaged in Dunkelgleb with Olivgrun stripes. The Command Panzer was number 02 and the other four were numbered in white on the turrets 10, 11, 12, and 13. A Google search of Panzer Lehr King Tigers will bring up a number of photos and references. I even found a photo of an FOV model of 11. Number 11 seems to have been knocked out by an AP round throught the side of the turret. Several photos show the damage.

 

[FirstLegion]

As we sort out packing lists and get ready to ship the new products, somehow I miscounted and we have 1 x VEH017 left.... it has been made available for order from our website. Please note, it will only be sold direct off our website, first come first served.....

Best,

Matt

 

[jazzeum]

It's gone now. I just hope a collector got it and not some speculator.

 

[zblang]

and this thread proves what I always say.... No good has ever come from german armor! {sm3}

 

[Andanna]

and this thread proves what I always say.... No good has ever come from german armor! {sm3}

I think most TS manufacturers will disagree with that statement.

 

[katana]

It's gone now. I just hope a collector got it and not some speculator.

The 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV in both long and short barrel versions is available on Ebay and is 1/30 scale and is slightly larger than the FL version. Also several FL Panzer IVs have turned up on Ebay in the last month. Watch out for Grey Market pieces sourced out of Hong Kong; they could be repainted 21st Century pieces. The 21st Century pieces have die cast metal superstructures that helps to identify them.

 

[jazzeum]

They're not the same thing. One is a mass market product, the other a finely made model.

They're not fungible.

 

[katana]

They're not the same thing. One is a mass market product, the other a finely made model.

They're not fungible.

A little paint and some detailing and for $45.00 you can have on just like it! I find it is a better example of a Panzer IV H than the Figarti model; which is over scale and has exposed screw heads holding on the Schurtzen rails. The Panzer Kommander in the photo is a Figarti figure and the 60 mm WB Fallschirmjager are size compatible. The Stug IV is pretty decent too.

 

[jazzeum]

I really have no desire to discuss this any further but in your last post you mention Figarti but then in the post before mine you mention First Legion so it's all a little perplexing what you're referring to.

Moreover, as you said you had no intention of buying any more FL products, why do you care?

 

[FirstLegion]

The 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV in both long and short barrel versions is available on Ebay and is 1/30 scale and is slightly larger than the FL version. Also several FL Panzer IVs have turned up on Ebay in the last month. Watch out for Grey Market pieces sourced out of Hong Kong; they could be repainted 21st Century pieces. The 21st Century pieces have die cast metal superstructures that helps to identify them.

Oh really? The 21st century model must be 1/29th scale then if it's bigger than our model. Unless of course you bought one and it was a different size than all the rest, apparently that happens to you. Further, aren't those 21st century tanks 1:32? I'm surprised you didn't return it because it wasn't sold as advertised and then file suit as the "injured party."

Any First Legion pieces that come out of Hong Kong/China are undoubtedly real pieces. We do MFR in that part of the world and have many customers there after all. Most people familiar with our models would be able to tell the difference in any case, though I wouldn't be surprised if you can't as you can't tell the difference between FL figures and WB figures and have obviously never actually seen a First Legion tank.

Thanks for continuing to discuss that which you obviously know nothing about. You seem quite happy with mass produced toy tanks by 21st century and figures by other makers, so how about your darken their door rather than continuing to comment here? I really can't figure out whether you have an agenda or really are as obtuse as you come across.

 

[katana]

Oh really? The 21st century model must be 1/29th scale then if it's bigger than our model. Unless of course you bought one and it was a different size than all the rest, apparently that happens to you. Further, aren't those 21st century tanks 1:32? I'm surprised you didn't return it because it wasn't sold as advertised and then file suit as the "injured party."

Any First Legion pieces that come out of Hong Kong/China are undoubtedly real pieces. We do MFR in that part of the world and have many customers there after all. Most people familiar with our models would be able to tell the difference in any case, though I wouldn't be surprised if you can't as you can't tell the difference between FL figures and WB figures and have obviously never actually seen a First Legion tank.

Thanks for continuing to discuss that which you obviously know nothing about. You seem quite happy with mass produced toy tanks by 21st century and figures by other makers, so how about your darken their door rather than continuing to comment here? I really can't figure out whether you have an agenda or really are as obtuse as you come across.

Matt; I did not realize you were a moderator at the Treefrog Forum and could control access to threads. I can tell the difference between FL and WB figures because I choose to buy the better figures as shown in the photo. I have seen a First Legion Panzer IV F1 and I returned it to the vendor as a defective product. I received a full refund and an apology for my inconvienience. I do not make disparaging comments about you on a public forum. Why do you feel the need to make disparaging comment to me? A bit defensive perhaps?

FYI the dimensions of the 21st Century Cold Steel and Figarti Panzer IV H are posted below with the correct 1/30 scale dimensions for reference. I did not include the FL PZ IV dimensions as you have already posted them on this thread per my request. Please note I use the Figarti PZ IV dimensions as a control as it has been verified by Hunter Rose and other Forum members to be 1/29 scale. The 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV H is obviously larger than 1/32 scale and also larger than your own published dimensions for the FL Panzer IV.

Dimensions---------------21st Century-------------------------Figarti------------------1/30 Scale

Length Hull-------------------193 mm--------------------------198 mm-------------------197 mm

Width----------------------------- 98 mm---------------------------100 mm---------------------95mm

Height-----------------------------89 mm-----------------------------91 mm---------------------89 mm

Approximate Scale--------1/29.2------------------------------1/29.9-----------------------1/30.0

 

[jazzeum]

Again, what does this have to do with FL, when you post 21st Century vs Figarti? Hello out there, this is a First Legion thread and why do you bother when you said you're not going to buy any more First Legion figures. Moreover, how many times have you repeated this "defective" :rolleyes2: thing? Once gets the point across.

 

[MajorPoint]

Oh really? The 21st century model must be 1/29th scale then if it's bigger than our model. Unless of course you bought one and it was a different size than all the rest, apparently that happens to you. Further, aren't those 21st century tanks 1:32? I'm surprised you didn't return it because it wasn't sold as advertised and then file suit as the "injured party."

Any First Legion pieces that come out of Hong Kong/China are undoubtedly real pieces. We do MFR in that part of the world and have many customers there after all. Most people familiar with our models would be able to tell the difference in any case, though I wouldn't be surprised if you can't as you can't tell the difference between FL figures and WB figures and have obviously never actually seen a First Legion tank.

Thanks for continuing to discuss that which you obviously know nothing about. You seem quite happy with mass produced toy tanks by 21st century and figures by other makers, so how about your darken their door rather than continuing to comment here? I really can't figure out whether you have an agenda or really are as obtuse as you come across.

Hear, hear, that man.

 

[zblang]

Matt; I did not realize you were a moderator at the Treefrog Forum and could control access to threads. I can tell the difference between FL and WB figures because I choose to buy the better figures as shown in the photo. I have seen a First Legion Panzer IV F1 and I returned it to the vendor as a defective product. I received a full refund and an apology for my inconvienience. I do not make disparaging comments about you on a public forum. Why do you feel the need to make disparaging comment to me? A bit defensive perhaps?

FYI the dimensions of the 21st Century Cold Steel and Figarti Panzer IV H are posted below with the correct 1/30 scale dimensions for reference. I did not include the FL PZ IV dimensions as you have already posted them on this thread per my request. Please note I use the Figarti PZ IV dimensions as a control as it has been verified by Hunter Rose and other Forum members to be 1/29 scale. The 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV H is obviously larger than 1/32 scale and also larger than your own published dimensions for the FL Panzer IV.

Dimensions---------------21st Century-------------------------Figarti------------------1/30 Scale

Length Hull-------------------193 mm--------------------------198 mm-------------------197 mm

Width----------------------------- 98 mm---------------------------100 mm---------------------95mm

Height-----------------------------89 mm-----------------------------91 mm---------------------89 mm

Approximate Scale--------1/29.2------------------------------1/29.9-----------------------1/30.0

What's that song from Frozen.....oh yeah....."Let it Go" {sm3}

 

[sammy719]

View attachment 190622

A little paint and some detailing and for $45.00 you can have on just like it! I find it is a better example of a Panzer IV H than the Figarti model; which is over scale and has exposed screw heads holding on the Schurtzen rails. The Panzer Kommander in the photo is a Figarti figure and the 60 mm WB Fallschirmjager are size compatible. The Stug IV is pretty decent too.

Sorry Kat but if you think the above tank is in the same ball park as a First Legion tank you got more then some measurements wrong, dude look at it....it screams Wal Mart and cheap plastic, But if your ok with that then it's all good but as I told you weeks ago no collector wants to hear the" you should buy X,Y,Z because those brands are so much better"man give it a rest, your stirring up drama that is not needed, I quit commenting on your threads on all other areas of this forum to keep out of the drama but First Legion is my main focus on this part of the forum I will speak my mind here, again as you stated your much happier with 21st century\W.Britains etc. so what's the point?? ...Sammy

 

[Rutledge]

Matt; I did not realize you were a moderator at the Treefrog Forum and could control access to threads. I can tell the difference between FL and WB figures because I choose to buy the better figures as shown in the photo. I have seen a First Legion Panzer IV F1 and I returned it to the vendor as a defective product. I received a full refund and an apology for my inconvienience. I do not make disparaging comments about you on a public forum. Why do you feel the need to make disparaging comment to me? A bit defensive perhaps?

FYI the dimensions of the 21st Century Cold Steel and Figarti Panzer IV H are posted below with the correct 1/30 scale dimensions for reference. I did not include the FL PZ IV dimensions as you have already posted them on this thread per my request. Please note I use the Figarti PZ IV dimensions as a control as it has been verified by Hunter Rose and other Forum members to be 1/29 scale. The 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV H is obviously larger than 1/32 scale and also larger than your own published dimensions for the FL Panzer IV.

Dimensions---------------21st Century-------------------------Figarti------------------1/30 Scale

Length Hull-------------------193 mm--------------------------198 mm-------------------197 mm

Width----------------------------- 98 mm---------------------------100 mm---------------------95mm

Height-----------------------------89 mm-----------------------------91 mm---------------------89 mm

Approximate Scale--------1/29.2------------------------------1/29.9-----------------------1/30.0

So this stuff actually matters to a few people? Wow. 99.9999999% of the world could care less.

It saddens me that there are those who see importance in that which is so obviously unimportant. I mean, getting some exercise, meetting a friend for a beer, walking a dog, call your parents, cleaning out that old drunk drawer, any of those activities, and a million more, would be a better use of time than measuring mm diffs of models that do nothing but sit on a shelf.

There is s saying: Never sweat the small stuff. It doesn't get any smaller. Life is not lived in miniature! .

 

[katana]

Sorry Kat but if you think the above tank is in the same ball park as a First Legion tank you got more then some measurements wrong, dude look at it....it screams Wal Mart and cheap plastic, But if your ok with that then it's all good but as I told you weeks ago no collector wants to hear the" you should buy X,Y,Z because those brands are so much better"man give it a rest, your stirring up drama that is not needed, I quit commenting on your threads on all other areas of this forum to keep out of the drama but First Legion is my main focus on this part of the forum I will speak my mind here, again as you stated your much happier with 21st century\W.Britains etc. so what's the point?? ...Sammy

The point is very simple. Brad was lamenting the fact that the last FL Panzer IV had been sold. I replied that the 21st Centry Cold Steel 1/30 scale Panzer IV was available on Ebay. I did not say it was as good or better than the FL Panzer IV; but it is available and in scale and can be improved. Nichimo 1/30 scale Panzer IV plastic kits are also available on Ebay. You cannot buy an FL PZ IV as they are sold out; but these options may serve as a reasonable place holder in a collection until something better becomes available and they are 1/30 not 1/32 scale. I posted the measurements.

Matt jumped into the conversation with a number of unkind comments and started a debate on the size of the 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV H; implying it was 1/32 scale and smaller than the FL PZ IV; which is not true, it is actually larger.

The comments about cheap plastic toys is funny. Polyurathane Resin and Polystyrene are both plastics. The tracks on both the 21st Century and First Legion Panzers are plastic. Designing a product using plastic does not make the product cheap. Injection molded Polystyrene models have better and finer detail than either Polystone or Die Cast Metal. The Injection Molding tools for making the 21st Century Panzer IV probably cost over $200,000.00 USD. Not cheap! Plus all Toy Soldiers are Toys although the prices limit them to big boys!

 

[nk81]

I have king&country, figarti, honourbound and first legion pieces.
Passed on 21st century.

Cheaper price does not mean better value.

Less preach, more pics.

 

[sammy719]

The point is very simple. Brad was lamenting the fact that the last FL Panzer IV had been sold. I replied that the 21st Centry Cold Steel 1/30 scale Panzer IV was available on Ebay. I did not say it was as good or better than the FL Panzer IV; but it is available and in scale and can be improved. Nichimo 1/30 scale Panzer IV plastic kits are also available on Ebay. You cannot buy an FL PZ IV as they are sold out; but these options may serve as a reasonable place holder in a collection until something better becomes available and they are 1/30 not 1/32 scale. I posted the measurements.

Matt jumped into the conversation with a number of unkind comments and started a debate on the size of the 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV H; implying it was 1/32 scale and smaller than the FL PZ IV; which is not true, it is actually larger.

The comments about cheap plastic toys is funny. Polyurathane Resin and Polystyrene are both plastics. The tracks on both the 21st Century and First Legion Panzers are plastic. Designing a product using plastic does not make the product cheap. Injection molded Polystyrene models have better and finer detail than either Polystone or Die Cast Metal. The Injection Molding tools for making the 21st Century Panzer IV probably cost over $200,000.00 USD. Not cheap! Plus all Toy Soldiers are Toys although the prices limit them to big boys!

no. 1 paragraph, Brad made a point why even bring up something about 21st Century tanks on this thread about the First Legion VEH 017, anyone that collects First Legion WWII could care less about how many 21st Century tanks are on Ebay as First Legion DOES NOT tie in with 21 Century product, feel free to post a poll (exclude yourself) and ask that exact question.

no 2. paragraph Matt did not begin a debate on scale issues, he made a statement on exactly what 21st Century advertises that they are 1:32 scale, you can debate scale issues until the sky falls as I know there is no reasoning with you there and to be honest I could care less what any manufacturer says or labels the size of said product except the ones I'm buying, and please spare me another spread sheet here proving your point on some new scale issues, as a few members have proven here on this thread and other threads your measurements on many items are sadly lacking.

no. 3 paragraph Matt/Constantine have gone in great lengths of discussion about the designs and manufacturing of First Legion tanks, which many consists of nearly 300 individual parts per tank, each hand painted and weathered not slapped together on some cheap assembly line by the thousands as your beloved 21st Century tanks, and lastly your comment about all toy soldiers are just the same that I beg to differ, when you have a hand made Russian quality style piece in your possession vs. some toy soldier knock off tank from the local Wal-Mart is more proof then what I already know quality comes at a steeper price...Sammy

 

[jazzeum]

Again, what does this have to do with FL, when you post 21st Century vs Figarti? Hello out there, this is a First Legion thread and why do you bother when you said you're not going to buy any more First Legion figures. Moreover, how many times have you repeated this "defective" :rolleyes2: thing? Once gets the point across.

I'm re-posting this since Katana seemed to miss the point, again. As a point of information, I was making an observation, not lamenting that the tank had sold out.