War Park New Release in December -- The Old Guard Grenadiers (1 Viewer)

[Peiper007]

I collect Napoleonics but only K & C and can see why FL are getting upset but think WP should sell what they have produced and do no more, this is a fledging TS company and we should be supporting them, they are similar, of that there is no doubt, but if figures are to be accurate then they will be alike. If they were not then we would complain they are not accurate. First Legion do not own the Napoleonic period and their Old Guard are not manufactured by First Legion anymore. The latest First Legion Napoleonics releases are numbered in the six hundreds and the Old Guard were NAP00021 - 29, so it has been years since they produced them. They are not rip offs of First Legion as they do not make them anymore, plus the figures of both companies are probably created from the same source reserach material, so what are Warpark infringing on, unless First Legion own the rights to manuafacturing Napoleonic French Old Guard figures and are going to make them again.

i think this is First Legion trying to bully a smaller company, they are upset because thay have produced a set of figures which are similar to something they used to make, but by definition as accurate figures they will be similar. Having a go at someone for producing something that you do not is bizarre and preposterous. The way First Legion did it by putting something on the manufacturers thread was playground theatricks, with a bullying tone.

On the bases First Legion are not the only company to produce their figures on square bases, Centurian soldiers did the same for their, excellent, Napoleonic sets.

Thinking about it Warpark figures are significantly different from First Legion figures in one major aspect, price. Can First Legion explain how Warpark can produce and deliver 'rip off' figures which are a similar quality to First legion for around 50% of the cost of First Legion figures? Warpark also have a fledging network of stockists and sell what is according to First legion a 'rip off' series of figures for roughtly 50% or their costs, figures which are of a similar quality [i have their WW2 Germans and they are great], dealers are stocking both company's figures.

Before people start talking about Chinese manufacturing etc, most companies produce in China and why are First legion 'throwing ther toys out of their pram/stroller over Warpark' and not Eagle Design, who are selling First Legion figures directly from their ebay page and website?

 

[Peiper007]

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. Any company can release old guard figures marching or otherwise. What you can't do is release them EXACTLY like another company who holds the intellectual property rights to those specific designs. The precedent that is concerning is that if we don't defend our intellectual property, which we have invested in heavily in terms of time and money, is that suddenly it will just be ok for another company to copy whatever they want from whoever they want. I'm sorry, but not only is it unethical, it's illegal. So I find regrettable your laissez-faire attitude to our property essentially being stolen. We aren't talking about a few similarities here, we're talking about figures that were resculpted exactly the same as our figures, right down to the relief detail on the flag, the sapper's pose and position of his left arm on his strap, etc. etc. etc. Perhaps you need to look at these a bit more closely rather than writing it off to "well, they're old guard and old guard are old guard and muskets are the same size at this scale, etc...."

And comments by people saying they are sad that these have been withdrawn I find eye raising as well. Yes, they're cheaper, unauthorized copies of superior original products usually are. It's sad that collectors buy such products to save a few $ as it just encourages such behavior.

Perhaps for you all, this is a hobby. But understand, that's it's certainly not to me -this is my livelihood. It pays my mortgage, my kids education, etc. so we take it extremely seriously. How would any of you feel if I just went into your job and took what you did and passed it off as my own? Please view it through that prism. I have no issue with companies that view our success and try to emulate us stylistically, something many companies including War Park do. But they have to do it without violating our intellectual property rights, which in this case they clearly have. So not defending our intellectual property is the dangerous precedent.​

Thanks for the info so wjhat is the IP on your figures? what is the patent number?

 

[jazzeum]

People seem to throw out the concept of IP rights willy nilly but exactly what rights are you (FL) defending here. The only right that would seem to apply in this or similar situations are copyrights, not patents or trademarks. You have a copyright logo at the bottom of the FL website but this appears to be a general copyright, not a copyright as to each specific item, which the USPTO requires as to copyrighting a work. Moreover, have you copyrighted each work with applicable authorities in each country.

Will you be complaining next when someone else makes a German tank. After all, there are few distinctive ways in which to make tanks.

 

[jazzeum]

Thanks for the info so wjhat is the IP on your figures? what is the patent number?

Patents do not apply to these kinds of works. For example, a chemical process that no one has ever made before could be patented but not an art work. That is the function of copyright.

 

[FirstLegion]

Thanks for the info so wjhat is the IP on your figures? what is the patent number?

You don't patent works of art/sculptures, they are automatically copyrighted when created. And you don't need to apply for a copyright to have that copyright, it's automatic.

Honestly, I can't even believe what i'm reading in your other post. Yeah, First Legion is probably right, but it's ok, we should support WP because they're smaller irrespective of the fact that what they did may be wrong. Huh? So, if I decided to produce copies of Warhammer's Space Marines by copying their sculptures, you think that Games Workshop should just let us do it because we're a lot smaller than they are? If they defend their rights, which i'm 100% certain they would, are they "bullying" us? We're not bullying anyone, we're simply defending our property, which we have every right to do. The fact that you don't seem to understand our position on this is mind blowing to me.

As for the price, clearly you don't collect our products. If you did, you'd understand why there are price differences between our figures and other brands. There are different figures out there for all levels of collectors and different people like different things. None is right or wrong, but anyone who collects our products understands the pricing.

Anyway, I've made FL's position on this clear and have nothing else to say on the matter and will go back to enjoying X-mas with my kids now.

Merry X-mas all.


​

 

[jazzeum]

Although copyright in a work has protection when it is created, to enforce a copyright claim you need to register the copyright with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. On the whole, a copyright holder is better off seeking registration.

See https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

 

[tdubel]

WOW< I can't believe people think it is ok to produce actual knock offs, these are really clear as being direct copies, there is no argument on that, hell WP didn't argue that at all. This is called "Caught Red Handed".

I think FL is doing exactly what they should do in this case. I think K&C and Britains would do the same thing. Imitation is one thing and I agree that on some items they are going to look alike, but direct copying is wholly another thing and that is just flat out wrong.

TD

 

[The Military Workshop]

People seem to throw out the concept of IP rights willy nilly but exactly what rights are you (FL) defending here. The only right that would seem to apply in this or similar situations are copyrights, not patents or trademarks. You have a copyright logo at the bottom of the FL website but this appears to be a general copyright, not a copyright as to each specific item, which the USPTO requires as to copyrighting a work. Moreover, have you copyrighted each work with applicable authorities in each country.

Will you be complaining next when someone else makes a German tank. After all, there are few distinctive ways in which to make tanks.

Brad,
Since you are the one with all the information perhaps you could let FL and other brands know the approx. cost involved in copyrighting one figure in say 15 countries. They and we can then do our own maths from there. I am guessing there will be a bit of time and paperwork involved as well. Is there a standard waiting time for approval in USA from time of application ?

 

[tdubel]

You don't patent works of art/sculptures, they are automatically copyrighted when created. And you don't need to apply for a copyright to have that copyright, it's automatic.

Honestly, I can't even believe what i'm reading in your other post. Yeah, First Legion is probably right, but it's ok, we should support WP because they're smaller irrespective of the fact that what they did may be wrong. Huh? So, if I decided to produce copies of Warhammer's Space Marines by copying their sculptures, you think that Games Workshop should just let us do it because we're a lot smaller than they are? If they defend their rights, which i'm 100% certain they would, are they "bullying" us? We're not bullying anyone, we're simply defending our property, which we have every right to do. The fact that you don't seem to understand our position on this is mind blowing to me.

As for the price, clearly you don't collect our products. If you did, you'd understand why there are price differences between our figures and other brands. There are different figures out there for all levels of collectors and different people like different things. None is right or wrong, but anyone who collects our products understands the pricing.

Anyway, I've made FL's position on this clear and have nothing else to say on the matter and will go back to enjoying X-mas with my kids now.

Merry X-mas all.


​

Merry Xmas Matt, your post is definitive and where I think everyone should be on the subject, this is so cut and dry it is nearly laughable.
TD

 

[The Military Workshop]

WOW< I can't believe people think it is ok to produce actual knock offs, these are really clear as being direct copies, there is no argument on that, hell WP didn't argue that at all. This is called "Caught Red Handed".

I think FL is doing exactly what they should do in this case. I think K&C and Britains would do the same thing. Imitation is one thing and I agree that on some items they are going to look alike, but direct copying is wholly another thing and that is just flat out wrong.

TD

Finally a collector tells it like it is.

Nobody has even attempted to contradict Matt's comments but a consensus is that not a problem as the figures are cheaper. WP is actually praised for admitting there is an issue.

I find many of the comments made here sad to read.

 

[Gebhard]

WOW< I can't believe people think it is ok to produce actual knock offs, these are really clear as being direct copies, there is no argument on that, hell WP didn't argue that at all. This is called "Caught Red Handed".

I think FL is doing exactly what they should do in this case. I think K&C and Britains would do the same thing. Imitation is one thing and I agree that on some items they are going to look alike, but direct copying is wholly another thing and that is just flat out wrong.

TD

Tom,

I've been blown away by the response by some on this one as well. I really can't believe some are either unable to see the totall ripoff or just so blinded by thier lust to have nice looking figures at a cheaper cost to stand for what is right.

Nobody is saying there is not room for a new company to make their mark, on the contrary competition is good for everyone. I would love to see what WP can do with Napoleonic product but this is not the way to make your mark IMO.

In the future I'd love to see what they can come up with on their own. Their Kharkov line is very popular & totally new to the Hobby which is refreshing.

 

[tdubel]

Finally a collector tells it like it is.

Nobody has even attempted to contradict Matt's comments but a consensus is that not a problem as the figures are cheaper. WP is actually praised for admitting there is an issue.

I find many of the comments made here sad to read.

Wholeheatedly agree. I can see the issue with the tanks as a panzer 1 is a panzer 1, etc. they are all "copies" of an original vehicle. Figures - nah, these are typically artistic sculpts of someone's interpretation of a human being in a well known uniform, there is also a style to sculpting a human. What we have here is identical copies or nearly even down to the way they were photographed for marketing purposes and that is not right IMO.
TD

 

[zblang]

I wonder how the people defending war park would feel if they bought a forgery, at auction, of something valuable. Based on the comments, I guess they’d be ok with it! Crazy

I am glad war park pulled this line, but they aren’t to be commended for following the law or attempting to break it in the first place.

 

[ChrisTay]

I believe this round, it was a good lesson for War Park or any other company and this is how I see War Park’s reading of it. Yes, it was painful. They did not like it. They have moved on. I hope that War Park will also be back with even better products. The basic sculpt is already very good. Just need some fine-tuning of the way they are presented if they want to do Naps again.

All said, can you really copyright a style of sculpting? Can you? Really? But certainly, what if the figures had been thought through and presented slightly differently? Different poses and the arrangement of figures could have been different. By then, would some of you folks, like this workshop guy, still call it a copy?

As for toy soldiers, any brand that wishes and positions itself towards commanding premium end prices from collectors in the market had better ensure the reliability of the product be at top rate and do not show deterioration over time. Poor reliability of products probably does more damage to any brand's image. It may have the initial wow factor on the first day when we receive the product, but if they deteriorate over time, it certainly will disappoint collectors in the long run. It also puts a certain risk on any dealers' unsold inventory. In this regard, if in putting ultimate money does not necessarily buy satisfaction, the collectors will certainly put their money on those brands that do, and better still if these are at sweeter price points.

Rgds,Chris

 

[Spanish soldier]

High prices harms the continuity of our hobby in the medium or long term.

 

[The Military Workshop]

All said, can you really copyright a style of sculpting? Can you? Really? But certainly, what if the figures had been thought through and presented slightly differently? Different poses and the arrangement of figures could have been different. By then, would some of you folks, like this workshop guy, still call it a copy?

Rgds,Chris

If the poses were different it would not be a copy.

My comments, whilst supporting FL, also included my reaction to the fact that many in the thread simply did not see what happened as an issue. WP got more support than FL who were the victim in this thread.

 

[ExRanger]

High prices harms the continuity of our hobby in the medium or long term.

I totally agree. Understand the need to make money but not price out the collectors who carry this wonderful hobby.

 

[Panzer ace]

If the poses were different it would not be a copy.

My comments, whilst supporting FL, also included my reaction to the fact that many in the thread simply did not see what happened as an issue. WP got more support than FL who were the victim in this thread.

I will not condone War Park, nor will I support First Legion on this one. I am essentially reserving judgment.

War Park apologized and acknowledged the issue. If it happens again or a pattern of infringement is established then I will probably see their behavior differently.

First Legion accused a manufacturer of copying their figures. If they continually do that with other companies etc. then I will probably see their actions differently.

In the meantime I will continue to purchase both War Park and First Legion items.

 

[Mike97]

I'm a huge fan of First Legion and am also a buyer of War Park items. I don't blame Matt for protecting his investment and would've done the same were I in his shoes.
I saluted War Park because IMO they very quickly admitted their mistake and took appropriate action...based on the time stamps I saw, they responded within 8 hours or so of Matt raising the issue. They didn't equivocate, didn't say 'we'll get back to you' or 'let's take this matter offline', they dealt with it directly
And good for them.

 

[OzDigger]

I'm not a regular collector of products from either company. No TS company can claim effective owner-ship of the design of a figure's base. However the War Park figures are clearly copies, for example both the Sapper's hands/arms are in exact same position as the First Legion figure, beard is the same, etc, no coincidence there imo.

Therefore I do blame WP for copying the figures to that degree in the first place, but wise and proper move to admit it when they did...so there is that. I can't see that First Legion are to blame for anything here, except their figures are more expensive. Yes that's a joke, no blame applicable to FL at all really.