Why do we love and hate K&C. (4 Viewers)

[OldDragon]

Paulo:

Yes it can be quite difficult to explain to someone with different interests!

....

Hi Njja

I see you got 1250 ships too ... is that a Lexington class carrier ? I have some ships too. Mainly WWII in the Pacific .. Neptun made.

PS. I dont refer to them as toy soldiers ... just My fleet

OD

 

[Spitfrnd]

Seems this thread has been around the barn a few times but that is the pattern of forum discussions like this. For my two cents, it remains not a hate or love but a prefer or not prefer question. I was drawn to this hobby by the animation and cleverness of the Conte figures. This proved to be a tough act... as they say and mostly since then I have found it satisfied almost exclusively by a competitor and most of the K&C figures do not appeal to me in the same way. That is not to say there are not some that are impressive for their style and there are some fine examples in the best five thread. I can say I enjoy the Cuirassiers I have.

Certainly K&C has made a huge contribution to popularizing more realistic matt metal figures and paved the way for newer companies that have continued to push the envelop of realism and dynamic figure poses. So while they may not as often appeal to me, I just can't see not liking K&C figures, much less hating them.

What I like less is what is often said about them or in defense of them or against anyone who criticizes them by many different sources. Of course I do not mean anyone's honest expression of appreciation, affection or any other opinion concerning their relative merits but more how or why it is said. Brand loyalty is fine but combativeness is less fine. It is natural for any collector to be passionate about their favorites but it just seems that the passion is taken to an abusive level more often for this manufacturer than any other on the forums, for whatever reason.

So bottom line, what I like most is many of the figures; what I like less is the unfortunate dogmatic rhetoric that they sometimes engender.

 

[Rob]

Seems this thread has been around the barn a few times but that is the pattern of forum discussions like this. For my two cents, it remains not a hate or love but a prefer or not prefer question. I was drawn to this hobby by the animation and cleverness of the Conte figures. This proved to be a tough act... as they say and mostly since then I have found it satisfied almost exclusively by a competitor and most of the K&C figures do not appeal to me in the same way. That is not to say there are not some that are impressive for their style and there are some fine examples in the best five thread. I can say I enjoy the Cuirassiers I have.

Certainly K&C has made a huge contribution to popularizing more realistic matt metal figures and paved the way for newer companies that have continued to push the envelop of realism and dynamic figure poses. So while they may not as often appeal to me, I just can't see not liking K&C figures, much less hating them.

What I like less is what is often said about them or in defense of them or against anyone who criticizes them by many different sources. Of course I do not mean anyone's honest expression of appreciation, affection or any other opinion concerning their relative merits but more how or why it is said. Brand loyalty is fine but combativeness is less fine. It is natural for any collector to be passionate about their favorites but it just seems that the passion is taken to an abusive level more often for this manufacturer than any other on the forums, for whatever reason.

So bottom line, what I like most is many of the figures; what I like less is the unfortunate dogmatic rhetoric that they sometimes engender.

In my view life is waaaaaay too short to fall out over Toy soldiers.There is enough crap going on in the world without having confrontation here too.This is a haven for celebrating our collections and the maxing out of our credit cards

Rob

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

I belong to or follow forums of painters and sculpters who create and or paint miniatures and they distinguish between historical/military miniatures and toy soldiers.Masters such as Alan Ball sculpt for both but I think that in recent times toy soldiers and models/miniatures have split and are on two different roads.I know that this is a KC thread but I would like Ken Osen to post and voice his opinion.I don't think there is right or wrong in this but I am interested in the opinion of a professional.I did want to say that I have recently noticed an upsurge of interest in the Traditionals on the forum.Any opinions about this?
Mark

Hi there!

I think this thread got a little off track so in order for it to return to the original question, I have started a new thread under the General Toy Soldier Discussion area of the forum addressing this question.

By the way, what is to hate about any toy soldier? Nothing I can think of!
All the Best!
Ken Osen

 

[Capitolron]

Seems this thread has been around the barn a few times but that is the pattern of forum discussions like this. For my two cents, it remains not a hate or love but a prefer or not prefer question. I was drawn to this hobby by the animation and cleverness of the Conte figures. This proved to be a tough act... as they say and mostly since then I have found it satisfied almost exclusively by a competitor and most of the K&C figures do not appeal to me in the same way. That is not to say there are not some that are impressive for their style and there are some fine examples in the best five thread. I can say I enjoy the Cuirassiers I have.

Certainly K&C has made a huge contribution to popularizing more realistic matt metal figures and paved the way for newer companies that have continued to push the envelop of realism and dynamic figure poses. So while they may not as often appeal to me, I just can't see not liking K&C figures, much less hating them.

What I like less is what is often said about them or in defense of them or against anyone who criticizes them by many different sources. Of course I do not mean anyone's honest expression of appreciation, affection or any other opinion concerning their relative merits but more how or why it is said. Brand loyalty is fine but combativeness is less fine. It is natural for any collector to be passionate about their favorites but it just seems that the passion is taken to an abusive level more often for this manufacturer than any other on the forums, for whatever reason.

So bottom line, what I like most is many of the figures; what I like less is the unfortunate dogmatic rhetoric that they sometimes engender.

Interesting - I was thinking the same thing about people who seek out to be over critical of King & Country and their supporters. I guess we come at this issue from two different ends of the street.

Although - it may be an honest expression of approval or disapproval - it seem more & more to be a game of us vs. them - almost my gang is better than your gang. Time and time again we hear the charges of "Oh the Zealots" - when most of the time people - myself included - rejoice at the art of King & Country. Only to be met with crys of being a lackey for the industry leader.

I find that usually what will cause the difference of opinion to rise above a conversation is when someone snicks in a little dig or put down to prop up their position. This action is usually intended for enjoyment on another forum. Very pathetic

I make no apologies for supporting King & Country - and will defend their ART WORK against critics who seek nothing more to economically attack this great company by ... well that type of counting we all know.

At times my support may be very strong - but, for grown men to take offense and make more out of my and others thoughts & positions on these products is sad. I don't believe I or any other K&C fan goes out of their way to insult a member who states their opinion - that is unless that member makes their post personalized - which we unfortunately see time and time again with Members who dislike King & Country.

I think we can say what we feel and even do our thoughts IN BIG BLUE LETTERS for fun - it hurts no one and those who find this offensive is being silly and grumpy.

I enjoy most of the Members here (with a few exceptions) and appreciate the humor and fun this forum brings. What is exciting is the TRUE DISCUSSION of the hobby and - yes - even a NAPOLEON here and there, along with Monty Python and other funny things.

It is unfortunate that we have a little circle who want to personalize posts, be mostly negative to get reaction and belittle those who they feel are not in their circle. But, hey - we have them in real life too don't we - so I guess even the real world has to enter in sometimes.

My thoughts about King & Country are kept on the K&C Thread - where one should expect to see the "OH WOW ! " reactions. So how that could insult or upset anyone is beyond me.

Our forum is a place to talk freely (within reason) about Toy Soldiers and news, releases and even reviews. I think we do that. We have those who want to make trouble - but all in all - we discuss the different Toy Soldiers Makers and their Art Work. I personally go on the CONTE, JOHN JENKINS and Sometimes the FIRST LEGION threads to discuss those great releases and up coming things. It is fun - I appreciate Shannon and the whole gang for the opportunity to do so.

So lets get beyond the jabs, stabs, backhanded posts and remarks for another forum - and focus on great things going on in our hobby.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Ron

 

[thebritfarmer]

As a non K&C collector I feel I must chime in.We are all entitled to collect what we wish, it is our money and we work hard to earn it. My problem is that I feel that many of the K&C collectors isolate the rest of the forum members with polls, quizzes and info etc... that would fall under the general toy soldier discussion. I think if threads were made to include everyones favourite range or figures more people would participate and maybe there would be more harmony. I enjoy looking at everyones newest K&C purchases and the dispatches etc even though I don't collect them.

 

[Andanna]

I admit I demand 100% accuracy. If it is not accurate - it is not for me.

And that is independent whether a figure is gloss or matte. As an example, I did have an e-mail exchange with Ana about the Maharajah of Sikkim who in my books was labeled a "boy" until she convinced me that he was in his twenties and his size was correct. Being in his twenties still qualified him as a boy in these Nobel circles.

You might have also followed the discussion with Matt Pavone whether the helmets worn by the new German infantry could be used for the Battle of Moscow (1940) - they cannot.

I actually research individual tanks and only buy a model if it is 100% accurate (see http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/album.php?albumid=310 on the early Tiger tank).

The research is part of the hobby - and the check whether the artist/manufacturer got it right. And discovering that the artist/manufacturer did, for example, not forget the little horseshoe that was welded on the Tiger tank with the number 100, gives me a lot of satisfaction and convinces me that I spent my money wisely.

This is not necessarily a vote against KC, I cannot judge the accuracy of their models, but a vote for holding manufacturers responsible for the quality of their products.

 

[OzDigger]

K & C products are a compromise between the needs for mass production, pricing and consumer appeal. If they increased the detail too high it would increase the production costs, the number of breakages in transit, and of course force an increase in the RRP. Their present compromise suits me fine but of course some collectors would be happy with less detail and others will want more.

 

[Spitfrnd]

....Although - it may be an honest expression of approval or disapproval - it seem more & more to be a game of us vs. them - almost my gang is better than your gang. Time and time again we hear the charges of "Oh the Zealots" - when most of the time people - myself included - rejoice at the art of King & Country. Only to be met with crys of being a lackey for the industry leader.

Fair enough, lets rationally discuss this then. To me it is all in the how and the intent. If someone legitimately disagrees with your appraisal, should they not be entitled to say so, even with a little humor and edge? Are we all so tightly wound here that we cannot laugh at ourselves a wee bit? Lord I hope not. That sounds all so bleak to me.

I find that usually what will cause the difference of opinion to rise above a conversation is when someone snicks in a little dig or put down to prop up their position. This action is usually intended for enjoyment on another forum. Very pathetic

Yes it can go to0 far and some manifest an intent to do so, that is another matter and a conduct to be scorned, whatever they support.

I make no apologies for supporting King & Country - and will defend their ART WORK against critics who seek nothing more to economically attack this great company by ... well that type of counting we all know.

Again, that seems fine to me; but I think it is only fair to recognize in return that many of those critics are quite serious in their observations and deserve the same respect to which you are entitled.

At times my support may be very strong - but, for grown men to take offense and make more out of my and others thoughts & positions on these products is sad. I don't believe I or any other K&C fan goes out of their way to insult a member who states their opinion - that is unless that member makes their post personalized - which we unfortunately see time and time again with Members who dislike King & Country.

With respect I don't think it is the personalization but the malice or suggestion of unquestionable superiority that matters. Both are actually pretty simple to discern and certainly there is some of both here. I must respectfully disagree that no K&C fan ever does that here. If anyone is uncertain about that, I think many of us could point to threads where that has happened. As you said in the beginning, it can be an us against them thing and both camps, if you want to call them that, have their offenders.

I think we can say what we feel and even do our thoughts IN BIG BLUE LETTERS for fun - it hurts no one and those who find this offensive is being silly and grumpy.

I completely agree as I noted.

I enjoy most of the Members here (with a few exceptions) and appreciate the humor and fun this forum brings. What is exciting is the TRUE DISCUSSION of the hobby and - yes - even a NAPOLEON here and there, along with Monty Python and other funny things.

So do I and that is why I am even bothering to reply here. The risk of stifling criticism, even with an apparent edge, is that you end up eliminating the easy and free exchange that otherwise exists. By all means enjoy your BLUE LETTERS and I will will enjoy my RED LETTERS and neither of us should mind or be offended by those who laugh at either for the practice. A forum is an awkward place for a free exchange at times since it is hard to properly convey tone. Oh it can be done and some of the offensive posts do it all to well but there are many more that may at first seem hostile or sarcastic that actually are just playful, at least until the poster is accosted. This place is supposed to be a celebration of what many like to call toys; so let's be free to play a little. I guess I would hope we could suspect humor before rancor until proven otherwise.

My thoughts about King & Country are kept on the K&C Thread - where one should expect to see the "OH WOW ! " reactions. So how that could insult or upset anyone is beyond me.

Our forum is a place to talk freely (within reason) about Toy Soldiers and news, releases and even reviews. I think we do that. We have those who want to make trouble - but all in all - we discuss the different Toy Soldiers Makers and their Art Work. I personally go on the CONTE, JOHN JENKINS and Sometimes the FIRST LEGION threads to discuss those great releases and up coming things. It is fun - I appreciate Shannon and the whole gang for the opportunity to do so.

So lets get beyond the jabs, stabs, backhanded posts and remarks for another forum - and focus on great things going on in our hobby.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Ron

Those are good thoughts and I think shared my most. I just hope we can all appreciate that not everyone who loves K&C is a saint any more than everyone who does not is a sinner.

 

[OzDigger]

........With respect I don't think it is the personalization but the malice or suggestion of unquestionable superiority that matters. Both are actually pretty simple to discern and certainly there is some of both here. I must respectfully disagree that no K&C fan ever does that here. If anyone is uncertain about that, I think many of us could point to threads where that has happened. As you said in the beginning, it can be an us against them thing and both camps, if you want to call them that, have their offenders........

Spitfrnd, I have to say that I don't agree that these things are "pretty simple to discern". Often we can confuse sarcasm with malice, and assertiveness with aggression or unquestionable superiority as you call it. Of course we can convince ourselves, with or without the help of other like minded folk, that we believe something to be true, but that doesn't make it so my friend. Hitler and his followers was sufficient proof of that I feel.

I am happy to discuss anything on this forum in a reasonable manner. What some members still don't understand is that the forum owners won't tolerate over personalized posts, or the use of abusive or offensive words. Those posts will get deleted no matter who makes them. If some members see some sort of conspiracy theory in that simple fact I can't do much about it.

 

[jazzeum]

Can we just give this over contentiousness a rest. No one is coming out of this looking like a rose.

 

[Njja]

Hi Njja

I see you got 1250 ships too ... is that a Lexington class carrier ? I have some ships too. Mainly WWII in the Pacific .. Neptun made.

PS. I dont refer to them as toy soldiers ... just My fleet

OD

Yeah Baby! I love those Neptune ships! I first ran into them in Germany back

in the 1970's and have been buying them ever since! I could sit for hours

looking at the details, and setting up a new display!

Here are a couple sitting around the den!

Last photo is a mixed harbor.

 

[wadepat]

Yeah Baby! I love those Neptune ships! I first ran into them in Germany back

in the 1970's and have been buying them ever since! I could sit for hours

looking at the details, and setting up a new display!

Here are a couple sitting around the den!

Last photo is a mixed harbor.

Hi John,

As I have said to you several times, your Neptun collection is outstanding! Every time I see your waterline ship collection, I just drool. If I had the budget, I would collect these jewels, but I dare not add another line to my collection. However, I certainly appreciate you sharing these ships with us. They are both exciting and beautiful.

One of these days, I must visit your den. I think I would probably sit dumbfounded as I viewed the many wonderful things to be found there. Thanks for giving us another glimpse of your great vault of treasures!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[nmrocks]

Ya Know, I originally came to this site for information about a hobby I loved, I became a member as I thought there were a nice group of people here. There still here but very hard to find under all the garbage that passes as conversation.
I've since changed my mind. There's nothing I can do about the state of the neighborhood and apparently the locals are all very comfortable with the state of things, so I've decided to move on.
I'm sure I'll drop in for that info I looked for when I started here but it will be anonimiously.
Moderator, I've cleared as much as I could from my personel account but can't figure out how to do the rest, please remove me as a member.
See ya boys,
Ray

 

[Uthred]

As a non K&C collector I feel I must chime in.We are all entitled to collect what we wish, it is our money and we work hard to earn it. My problem is that I feel that many of the K&C collectors isolate the rest of the forum members with polls, quizzes and info etc... that would fall under the general toy soldier discussion. I think if threads were made to include everyones favourite range or figures more people would participate and maybe there would be more harmony. I enjoy looking at everyones newest K&C purchases and the dispatches etc even though I don't collect them.

Ditto, my friend!

Cheers...

Uthred

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

Our forum is a place to talk freely (within reason) about Toy Soldiers and news, releases and even reviews. I think we do that.

So lets get beyond the jabs, stabs, backhanded posts and remarks for another forum - and focus on great things going on in our hobby.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Ron[/QUOTE]

Ron the word here is our forum.I agree lets all move on and have some fun .Can we close this thread down as much has been said and seems to be going and gone in a direction I did not intend.I just wanted to point out how hard it was to fit in at first and how it all appeared to me at that time.So moderators lets put a padlock on this thread and move on.Simmo