Things that annoy me (5 Viewers)

[Combat]

I appreciate everyone’s views on this tragedy.

While much of the video and what happened leading up to the incident remains in dispute there are certain things that did not happen despite Trump and his administration official’s false claims.

The ICE agent was never “viciously run over” or stuck under the vehicle.

While I continue to support the enforcement of our immigration laws I cannot ignore video evidence that is contrary to the false narratives pushed by this administration when it comes to these events.

I am a patriot, not an idiot.

He didn't have to be run over to justify firing his weapon under the law. Of course, if he had been run over or under the car he would have been dead. And "run over" doesn't necessarily mean he was under the car. Getting hit by the vehicle is another interpretation of being run over. The entire point in allowing law enforcement to use deadly force is to avoid being killed. It is pointless to nitpick whether he was run over. He merely has to have a reasonable basis to believe he is at risk of imminent danger. This was a guy who had already been run over and hospitalized. A vehicle suddenly coming toward him constitutes a reasonable basis to conclude that he is at risk of imminent serious harm. The subjective intent of the driver also does not matter. He was not expected to read her mind in the couple of seconds that he had to make a decision. It is a justified shooting even if there were other options available to him. He is not required to make the "best" decision in that moment. It is still a tragedy since it was entirely avoidable. If the woman had not interfered with federal law enforcement officers in the conduct of their job and just followed directions to get out of the vehicle, she would still be alive.

 

[mikemiller1955]

Here's a picture downloaded from the officer's body cam. The vehicle is headed straight for him. There is also a video from that camera that shows he was struck by her SUV. I wasn't going to get into this debate but couldn't let some wrong conclusions and statements go unchallenged.
View attachment 362156

please post the video you claim to have that she ran over him...cause that picture doesn't substantiate your claim that he was struck by her SUV...

 

[mikemiller1955]

He didn't have to be run over to justify firing his weapon under the law. Of course, if he had been run over or under the car he would have been dead. And "run over" doesn't necessarily mean he was under the car. Getting hit by the vehicle is another interpretation of being run over. The entire point in allowing law enforcement to use deadly force is to avoid being killed. It is pointless to nitpick whether he was run over. He merely has to have a reasonable basis to believe he is at risk of imminent danger. This was a guy who had already been run over and hospitalized. A vehicle suddenly coming toward him constitutes a reasonable basis to conclude that he is at risk of imminent serious harm. The subjective intent of the driver also does not matter. He was not expected to read her mind in the couple of seconds that he had to make a decision. It is a justified shooting even if there were other options available to him. He is not required to make the "best" decision in that moment. It is still a tragedy since it was entirely avoidable. If the woman had not interfered with federal law enforcement officers in the conduct of their job and just followed directions to get out of the vehicle, she would still be alive.

you are right...it is pointless to nit pick over whether he was run over...

even though he was obviously not run over...from all videos I have seen...and after he was out of harms way...completely safe...and she was driving off...with him now on the side of her vehicle...not in front of her...and she was leaving the scene...he walked over to her driver's window and point blank shot her in the face...she was no longer a threat...why not arrest her later instead of killing her?

she wasn't pointing a gun at him...she was driving away...he was safe...Ross just murdered someone cause he was pissed off...you can't use lethal force on someone who is no longer a threat...don't care how mad you are...you just can't murder someone once they are no longer a threat...

 

[Warrior]

I'm curious about these "protesters"; do they get paid lunch hours and dinner hours?

Do they get paid in cash or by check; do they report their earnings/get a 1099?

Do they get to write off their masks/clothing that gets tear gas on it or is that just part of the deal?

What is the standard uniform, I assume they are all out of XXXXXLarge @#$% ICE shirts and sweatshirts.

Do you have to buy your own professionally made signs or do they just deduct the cost from your paycheck?

Do any of these people actually work for a living or is this their main source of income/this side hustle whenever a situation pops up? Are they on call? "Hey, we need 10,000 pooestirrers in MN, so get on the next plane and get out there."

Do they eat in shifts so that there are still protestors singing and dancing and blowing whistles and playing accordions and screeching at the top of their lungs at law enforcement?

And what do they do when nature calls; where do they go to drop the kids off at the pool?

As far as I'm concerned, these are all legitimate concerns and I'd like them addressed.

 

[mikemiller1955]

lets say you woke to a noise in your front yard...and went to investigate with your home defense gun...and saw a guy with a knife stealing your Christmas decorations...and he sees you with your gun...and drops the knife and all the decorations to the ground and starts to walk away...

do you think it's legal to run up to him and shoot him?

 

[Warrior]

lets say you woke to a noise in your front yard...and went to investigate with your home defense gun...and saw a guy with a knife stealing your Christmas decorations...and he sees you with your gun...and drops the knife and all the decorations to the ground and starts to walk away...

do you think it's legal to run up to him and shoot him?

Don't own a gun.

Never have.

Never will.

 

[Warrior]

Here's a picture downloaded from the officer's body cam. The vehicle is headed straight for him. There is also a video from that camera that shows he was struck by her SUV. I wasn't going to get into this debate but couldn't let some wrong conclusions and statements go unchallenged.
View attachment 362156

Here's a video, about 26 seconds in is where she clips him.

Ran him over?

No, but she 1000% hit him.

And this agent is not some bozo who went through a 47 day training and was handed a gun, he was a 10 year veteran according to the report.

 

[gk5717]

lets say you woke to a noise in your front yard...and went to investigate with your home defense gun...and saw a guy with a knife stealing your Christmas decorations...and he sees you with your gun...and drops the knife and all the decorations to the ground and starts to walk away...

do you think it's legal to run up to him and shoot him?

That scenario you just posted is not like the one in Minnesota. Your scenario the guy after seeing the gun drops the knife. If the guy came towards the homeowner wih knife in hand then he could shoot, "stand your ground". Here is my take after thinking long and hard and watching all the videos. First I know from how I worked I most probably would not have shot. However the Ice officer in this case was 100% justified under the law. He was not standing in front of the car but walking in front of it more likely to assist the other officers in getting her out of the car. Did she intentionally aim her car at him, no. But she did hit him in her attempt to evade arrest and did not try to avoid striking him. Did the officer realize that NO all he knew was she was coming at him. If you notice the bullet hole in the windshield was caused by a shot from straight ahead. So in fact she was coming straight at him. It is easy from hindsight to say the other 2 shots from the side were not necessary but you are talking a second in a half time span for all 3 shots. You are trained to shoot until the threat is eliminated. In his mind she still was a threat as she could have struck other officers are in her attempt to escape strike an innocent civilian. This has been said a million times but it says it all. She put herself in this situation and as a result she paid the consequences. Just want to add something that Mike said in regards to training and police academy. What you learn in the academy is just basic stuff. It is nothing like when you get on the street. Experience is everything. I will never forget an academy instructor when I went through the academy. He said if you have to hit somebody with a sewer lid as long as you put in the report and justify it you are OK. I just hope this officer isn't thrown to the wolves like the officers in the george floyd case. I don't think they will. Let me add one more thing. I have zero, none, sympathy for that woman I just hope the dog in the back seat is doing OK.

 

[mikemiller1955]

Here's a video, about 26 seconds in is where she clips him.

Ran him over?

No, but she 1000% hit him.

And this agent is not some bozo who went through a 47 day training and was handed a gun, he was a 10 year veteran according to the report.

Here's a video, about 26 seconds in is where she clips him.

Ran him over?

No, but she 1000% hit him.

And this agent is not some bozo who went through a 47 day training and was handed a gun, he was a 10 year veteran according to the report.

that video shows absolutely 1 billion% nothing proving she clipped him...ZERO!

in fact at about 1:02 in the video the narrator of your video says...
"she turned to the right prompting the agent who is identified as Ross to JUMP OUT OF THE WAY and fire 3 shots"...
repeat........................."JUMP OUT OF THE WAY"...
maybe you should re-watch it...and listen this time too...

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this...
I believe my eyes and ears over what Trump or Noem says happened...

 

[Warrior]

that video shows absolutely 1 billion% nothing proving she clipped him...ZERO!

in fact at about 1:02 in the video the narrator of your video says...
"she turned to the right prompting the agent who is identified as Ross to JUMP OUT OF THE WAY and fire 3 shots"...
repeat........................."JUMP OUT OF THE WAY"...
maybe you should re-watch it...and listen this time too...

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this...
I believe my eyes and ears over what Trump or Noem says happened...

Right; he tried to jump out of the way like any normal human being would/was trying to avoid getting run over/BUT STILL GOT CLIPPED, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN AWAY THE NOISE/THUMPING SOUND 26 SECONDS IN?

WHAT CAUSED THAT NOISE; IT WAS HER HITTING HIM.

JESUS CHRIST, I GIVE UP.

 

[mikemiller1955]

That scenario you just posted is not like the one in Minnesota. Your scenario the guy after seeing the gun drops the knife. If the guy came towards the homeowner wih knife in hand then he could shoot, "stand your ground". Here is my take after thinking long and hard and watching all the videos. First I know from how I worked I most probably would not have shot. However the Ice officer in this case was 100% justified under the law. He was not standing in front of the car but walking in front of it more likely to assist the other officers in getting her out of the car. Did she intentionally aim her car at him, no. But she did hit him in her attempt to evade arrest and did not try to avoid striking him. Did the officer realize that NO all he knew was she was coming at him. If you notice the bullet hole in the windshield was caused by a shot from straight ahead. So in fact she was coming straight at him. It is easy from hindsight to say the other 2 shots from the side were not necessary but you are talking a second in a half time span for all 3 shots. You are trained to shoot until the threat is eliminated. In his mind she still was a threat as she could have struck other officers are in her attempt to escape strike an innocent civilian. This has been said a million times but it says it all. She put herself in this situation and as a result she paid the consequences. Just want to add something that Mike said in regards to training and police academy. What you learn in the academy is just basic stuff. It is nothing like when you get on the street. Experience is everything. I will never forget an academy instructor when I went through the academy. He said if you have to hit somebody with a sewer lid as long as you put in the report and justify it you are OK. I just hope this officer isn't thrown to the wolves like the officers in the george floyd case. I don't think they will. Let me add one more thing. I have zero, none, sympathy for that woman I just hope the dog in the back seat is doing OK.

I am 100% well familiar with the catch all phrase..."I was in fear for my life"...
once that is said...the outcome becomes subjective to whoever views the evidence...
but sometimes that is not enough to justify a shooting...
here is an interesting story that made national news last year...

Murder of Sonya Massey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I do appreciate your candid and what I believe are honest omissions concerning your experience as a police officer...
"I most probably would not have shot."...

thanks for your time and well written review of as an ex police officer how you would have handled it...

 

[mikemiller1955]

Right; he tried to jump out of the way like any normal human being would/was trying to avoid getting run over/BUT STILL GOT CLIPPED, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN AWAY THE NOISE/THUMPING SOUND 26 SECONDS IN?

WHAT CAUSED THAT NOISE; IT WAS HER HITTING HIM.

JESUS CHRIST, I GIVE UP.

You are basing you assumption on what..."a thump noise" you heard...for real?

I don't know what the thump noise was anymore than you do...

the video does not show he was run over...it does not show he was clipped...it doesn't even show his body making contact with the car...

he rushed to her side door and was in safe territory...now out of danger...not run over...not hobbled...not limping...but out of harm's way...

he put his gun within 3 feet of her...
and shot her in the face...
he was safe...out of danger...she was leaving...
he didn't have to murder her...

You and me...I'm glad you give up....cause in my last post I expressed the same desire...lets just say we see things differently and leave it at that...you can refute this post and I won't respond to anymore of your personal posts about the shooting...

 

[mikemiller1955]

Don't own a gun.

Never have.

Never will.

okay...so is it legal in your opinion to shoot the thief?

 

[Terp152]

please post the video you claim to have that she ran over him...cause that picture doesn't substantiate your claim that he was struck by her SUV...

I'm not going to waste my time.

 

[tdubel]

I'm not going to waste my time.

Bingo. Best phrase on this thread. I agree 100%.

What I found sad is the profound lack of respect and back handed comments about law enforcement on the daily in America. Just freaking sad. It is a thankless job at all levels, never any praise, just a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking structured to fit an agenda or fuel a hatred.

Disgusting IMO.

 

[Warrior]

You are basing you assumption on what..."a thump noise" you heard...for real?

I don't know what the thump noise was anymore than you do...

the video does not show he was run over...it does not show he was clipped...it doesn't even show his body making contact with the car...

he rushed to her side door and was in safe territory...now out of danger...not run over...not hobbled...not limping...but out of harm's way...

he put his gun within 3 feet of her...
and shot her in the face...
he was safe...out of danger...she was leaving...
he didn't have to murder her...

You and me...I'm glad you give up....cause in my last post I expressed the same desire...lets just say we see things differently and leave it at that...you can refute this post and I won't respond to anymore of your personal posts about the shooting...

Let's just leave it at that, you're never going to see things my way and vice versa, enough is enough on this subject between you and me.

 

[tdubel]

lets say you woke to a noise in your front yard...and went to investigate with your home defense gun...and saw a guy with a knife stealing your Christmas decorations...and he sees you with your gun...and drops the knife and all the decorations to the ground and starts to walk away...

do you think it's legal to run up to him and shoot him?

Once he is not a threat, NO, but I sure would call the police and let him reap all of the rewards of his actions and I would press all charges against individual. There is no free lunch on my space. For example, I have pursued and won on all charges in my life from a hit/run to bad check to an unfinished contractor. A lot of people over time ask me why, forgive forget - BS, I don't do that to other people, so people who do that to me I go after.

 

[Warrior]

okay...so is it legal in your opinion to shoot the thief?

Different states have different laws over what you can and can't do regarding shooting a person as far as I know.

AGAIN; I don't own a gun, never have, never will, so asking me about shooting someone is pointless as I don't have a dog in the fight.

I am 1000% anti gun, IMO only military and law enforcement should have guns, period.

If you are asking me to pretend and play along with you on this; I'm not interested.

 

[Warrior]

Bingo. Best phrase on this thread. I agree 100%.

What I found sad is the profound lack of respect and back handed comments about law enforcement on the daily in America. Just freaking sad. It is a thankless job at all levels, never any praise, just a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking structured to fit an agenda or fuel a hatred.

Disgusting IMO.

The thing that astounds me the most is how two people can sit down, view the exact same footage of an event and come away with two completely opposite takes.

It's got nothing to do with personal opinion/perspective and everything to do with how you align politically in this country, which speaks massive volumes as to how far off the rails this country has come.

And the complete lack of respect for law enforcement in this country is disgusting, glad my Dad is not alive to see it.

 

[paxtoysoldier]

One side being censored while the other is not