US/Israel Launches Op Epic Fury Against Iran (3 Viewers)

[jazzeum]

No one has had any success negotiating with Iran. Not Carter, Obama, Clinton, Bush. They tried all the typical tactics. They all failed. Businessmen like Trump can be ruthless but they believe everyone has a common goal. Get the best deal possible and make a lot of money. Political negotiation is a different animal. Particularly when dealing with fanatics. Iran believes time is on their side. They will endure short term punishment, hold out, and count on the US to cave. They don't want a deal even if that is in their best interest. They don't care if their citizens die. They don't care if the country is blown to pieces. That limits the options to just giving up and hoping for the best like the Europeans or bringing down the hammer and accepting the consequences in terms of long-term pain for everyone with no guarantee of success. For all his tough talk, I think Trump finds an exit ramp, declares victory, and washes his hands of this conflict with the realization that Iran will eventually develop a nuclear weapon to terrorize future generations. He will have done what he could against all the political headwinds. All the naysayers will be left to find a solution to an Iranian regime with a nuclear weapon and willingness to use it.

This situation is somewhat of Trump’s making as he cancelled the agreement that Obama made with the Iranians. It was not a perfect deal but the Iranians did make some concessions. The only reason he cancelled it is because Obama made it.

Getting back to the present he’s dealing with an adversary who appears willing to take any punishment to hang on, not your normal negotiating partner. I have been involved in some negotiations that were difficult but at the end both sides wanted to get a deal done and understood each other. Here the two sides do not understand each other. Trump doesn’t understand the Iranians and the Iranians think they can push Trump the way they did Carter. Trump going on social media doesn’t help him but either he can’t help himself or he thinks his tough talk will influence Iran, which it doesn’t.

 

[Warrior]

Just another example of why they need to go. I do wonder why the US doesn't just hack the electric grid system and shut it down rather than destroying it. I'm sure we have that capability. At some point, the US and/or other international countries will likely have to pay to repair the infrastructure damage if they want Iran to become a part of civilization. As a deal maker, I think Trump has a particularly difficult time getting his head around the fact that he is not dealing with people who will take the best offer but instead are willing to go down with the ship in a lose-lose scenario.

Couldn't agree more, he's handling this like he's buying real estate.

 

[Warrior]

Nuremberg is in my que...is it any good?

I haven't seen it, i have heard mixed reviews on it.

 

[Horus]

No one has had any success negotiating with Iran. Not Carter, Obama, Clinton, Bush. They tried all the typical tactics. They all failed. Businessmen like Trump can be ruthless but they believe everyone has a common goal. Get the best deal possible and make a lot of money. Political negotiation is a different animal. Particularly when dealing with fanatics. Iran believes time is on their side. They will endure short term punishment, hold out, and count on the US to cave. They don't want a deal even if that is in their best interest. They don't care if their citizens die. They don't care if the country is blown to pieces. That limits the options to just giving up and hoping for the best like the Europeans or bringing down the hammer and accepting the consequences in terms of long-term pain for everyone with no guarantee of success. For all his tough talk, I think Trump finds an exit ramp, declares victory, and washes his hands of this conflict with the realization that Iran will eventually develop a nuclear weapon to terrorize future generations. He will have done what he could against all the political headwinds. All the naysayers will be left to find a solution to an Iranian regime with a nuclear weapon and willingness to use it.

All the brain washed parents with their equally children, think they have a win win situation in either President Trump backs off or they get martyred and enter paradise.
However there is a bomb, I forget its official designation, but known as a graphite bomb that coats the electricity stations with graphite powder, that causes short circuits, knocking out it out, until the graphite has been cleaned away, which could be days or weeks and could be done again and again, and though temporary doesn't destroy the infrastructure.

So it could better for the Iranian people, if they can get rid of these tyrants, but remember, if it was the other way round, there would be no ***** footing around.
So while there might still be casualties, hopefully minor and not fatalities.
This time tomorrow, we may see what has happened.

 

[Warrior]

This situation is somewhat of Trump’s making as he cancelled the agreement that Obama made with the Iranians. It was not a perfect deal but the Iranians did make some concessions. The only reason he cancelled it is because Obama made it.

Getting back to the present he’s dealing with an adversary who appears willing to take any punishment to hang on, not your normal negotiating partner. I have been involved in some negotiations that were difficult but at the end both sides wanted to get a deal done and understood each other. Here the two sides do not understand each other. Trump doesn’t understand the Iranians and the Iranians think they can push Trump the way they did Carter. Trump going on social media doesn’t help him but either he can’t help himself or he thinks his tough talk will influence Iran, which it doesn’t.

This nails it; the Iranians are not negotiating in good faith, they don't want to see a deal get done, they are willing to go down with the ship and could care less about compromising, Trump is negotiating with himself on this one.

 

[mikemiller1955]

American Journalist Kidnapped in Iraq Is Freed...​

An American journalist who was abducted in Baghdad by an Iraqi militia allied with Iran was freed on Tuesday after a week in captivity, according to the militia and two Iraqi security officials.

The militia, Kataib Hezbollah, said in a statement that it had released the journalist, Shelly Kittleson, “in appreciation of the patriotic positions” of Iraq’s prime minister, who had been negotiating for her release. The group said Ms. Kittleson must leave Iraq immediately.

 

[mikemiller1955]

All the brain washed parents with their equally children, think they have a win win situation in either President Trump backs off or they get martyred and enter paradise.
However there is a bomb, I forget its official designation, but known as a graphite bomb that coats the electricity stations with graphite powder, that causes short circuits, knocking out it out, until the graphite has been cleaned away, which could be days or weeks and could be done again and again, and though temporary doesn't destroy the infrastructure.

So it could better for the Iranian people, if they can get rid of these tyrants, but remember, if it was the other way round, there would be no ***** footing around.
So while there might still be casualties, hopefully minor and not fatalities.
This time tomorrow, we may see what has happened.

A graphite bomb is intended to be a non-lethal weapon used to disable an electrical grid. The bomb works by spreading a dense cloud of extremely fine, chemically treated carbon filaments over air-insulated high voltage installations like transformers and power lines, causing short-circuits and subsequent disruption of the electricity supply in an area, a region or even an entire small country. The weapon is sometimes referred to as a blackout bomb or soft bomb because its direct effects are largely confined to the targeted electrical power facility, with minimal risk of immediate collateral damage.

The US Navy used sea-launched Tomahawk missiles with Kit-2 warheads, involving reels of carbon fibers, in Iraq as part of Operation Desert Storm during the Gulf War in 1991, where it disabled about 85% of the electricity supply. The US Air Force used the CBU-94, dropped by F-117 Nighthawks, during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia on 2 May 1999, where it disabled more than 70% national grid electricity supply. The supply was restored in less than 24 hours though was later disrupted by a further attack on 7 May 1999. It was again used following the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

 

[Combat]

This situation is somewhat of Trump’s making as he cancelled the agreement that Obama made with the Iranians. It was not a perfect deal but the Iranians did make some concessions. The only reason he cancelled it is because Obama made it.

Getting back to the present he’s dealing with an adversary who appears willing to take any punishment to hang on, not your normal negotiating partner. I have been involved in some negotiations that were difficult but at the end both sides wanted to get a deal done and understood each other. Here the two sides do not understand each other. Trump doesn’t understand the Iranians and the Iranians think they can push Trump the way they did Carter. Trump going on social media doesn’t help him but either he can’t help himself or he thinks his tough talk will influence Iran, which it doesn’t.

Obama sent Iran a plane loaded with $400 million in cash. I'm surprised it could get off the ground. He had a delusional world view that Iran's conduct was the result of oppression by the west. And if we just dealt nicely with them, they would come around. They must have fallen on the ground laughing. His deal simply allowed Iran to make nuclear weapons on a somewhat slower timeframe. I think Trump understands the Iranians, but he is understandably frustrated that there appears to be no basis to make a deal with them. His bluster is part of that frustration, and his default business instinct is to try to bully them into taking him seriously enough to come up with an off ramp.

 

[mikemiller1955]

Obama sent Iran a plane loaded with $400 million in cash. I'm surprised it could get off the ground. He had a delusional world view that Iran's conduct was the result of oppression by the west. And if we just dealt nicely with them, they would come around. They must have fallen on the ground laughing. His deal simply allowed Iran to make nuclear weapons on a somewhat slower timeframe. I think Trump understands the Iranians, but he is understandably frustrated that there appears to be no basis to make a deal with them. His bluster is part of that frustration, and his default business instinct is to try to bully them into taking him seriously enough to come up with an off ramp.

you keep saying Obama just gave them our money...that is an untrue spin you're putting on that story...
the money was paid to the US for munitions...that we never delivered to them...it was Iran's money that we gave them back...

this is the story that relates to that...

In January 2016, the Obama administration transferred $400 million in cash to Iran, which was the first installment of a larger $1.7 billion settlement. This payment was related to a failed 1979 arms deal, but its timing coincided with the release of several American prisoners, leading to significant political debate over whether it constituted a "ransom" payment...

• The Original Deal: Before the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the U.S.-backed Shah of Iran paid $400 million into a trust fund for U.S. military equipment that was never delivered.
• The Settlement: After 35 years of litigation at the Iran-U.S. Claims Tribunal in The Hague, the Obama administration settled the claim. The U.S. agreed to pay back the $400 million principal plus $1.3 billion in interest, totaling $1.7 billion.

Ultimately, the administration argued that settling the case for $1.7 billion saved American taxpayers money, as they estimated the tribunal would have ordered them to pay much more in interest.

 

[Barkmann]

Russell Crowe could play Trump, he did a great job as Goering, didn't even have to gain weight to play the part, he'd need to add about 50 to get it right.

Two other choices could be in the UK version Ron Seal or the US Thomp Son, as that is what his face appears to be covered in.

 

[Warrior]

I think Trump understands the Iranians, but he is understandably frustrated that there appears to be no basis to make a deal with them. His bluster is part of that frustration, and his default business instinct is to try to bully them into taking him seriously enough to come up with an off ramp.

His bluster is what makes him him regardless of the situation; him threatening to send them to Hell or whatever, they could care less, bring it on is their attitude.

If he wipes out their electric power plants and their bridges; so what, again they could care less.

I don't think he has any real concept of exactly who it is he's dealing with.

If he were smart, he'd end this and take an off ramp and be done with it before the US and the worldwide economy tanks.

Gas is up over 4.00 a gallon now here in MA; it was at about 2.69 or so when the war started, oil's up to 115.00 a barrel, it's a bad situation that gets worse by the day.

 

[Warrior]

you keep saying Obama just gave them our money...that is an untrue spin you're putting on that story...
the money was paid to the US for munitions...that we never delivered to them...it was Iran's money that we gave them back...

this is the story that relates to that...

In January 2016, the Obama administration transferred $400 million in cash to Iran, which was the first installment of a larger $1.7 billion settlement. This payment was related to a failed 1979 arms deal, but its timing coincided with the release of several American prisoners, leading to significant political debate over whether it constituted a "ransom" payment...

• The Original Deal: Before the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the U.S.-backed Shah of Iran paid $400 million into a trust fund for U.S. military equipment that was never delivered.
• The Settlement: After 35 years of litigation at the Iran-U.S. Claims Tribunal in The Hague, the Obama administration settled the claim. The U.S. agreed to pay back the $400 million principal plus $1.3 billion in interest, totaling $1.7 billion.

Ultimately, the administration argued that settling the case for $1.7 billion saved American taxpayers money, as they estimated the tribunal would have ordered them to pay much more in interest.

It's funny you mention this as my far right wing loon Penn grad egghead banker cousin refers to this 1.7 billion Obama handed to Iran constantly; I copied and pasted this and set it to him, we'll see what his reply is..................."That's left wing made up nonsense" will be his reply.

Right; sure it is.

 

[tdubel]

It's funny you mention this as my far right wing loon Penn grad egghead banker cousin refers to this 1.7 billion Obama handed to Iran constantly; I copied and pasted this and set it to him, we'll see what his reply is..................."That's left wing made up nonsense" will be his reply.

Right; sure it is.

My opinion on this is I don’t care what we supposedly owed them. Their consistent terroristic behavior would have voided that completely with justification. They never stopped their aggression and they probably will not until they are eradicated or a parking lot. This is not an easy off. I am fine if we let them linger for a bit wondering what we will do next. I think Trump should go dark and be non committal for a bit. Let’s see what happens then. Let them stick their neck out when they think the coast is clear and then we should cut it off. Sometimes the best negotiating position is to pause and be quiet
Tom

 

[Barkmann]

Just another example of why they need to go. I do wonder why the US doesn't just hack the electric grid system and shut it down rather than destroying it. I'm sure we have that capability. At some point, the US and/or other international countries will likely have to pay to repair the infrastructure damage if they want Iran to become a part of civilization. As a deal maker, I think Trump has a particularly difficult time getting his head around the fact that he is not dealing with people who will take the best offer but instead are willing to go down with the ship in a lose-lose scenario.

Here is an idea, stop telling them you want to talk while punching them in the face. Stop bombing them, get the israeli's to stop bombing them, as they are leading on this and have fooled the US government into joining them. Then negociate what is needed, required, wanted, offering them something in return, not just the idea that not being bombed is a good enough reason to agree. The US is losing, this as the administration is looking at it as a bomb physical things. While for the Iranians it is an idealogy, physical stuff does not matter. The bombing of civilians will just make more enemies, when the bombs are falling and killing their family and friends they will blame the Americans and the Jews [Israel]. As the seed of hatred is already there and it is human nature, even during WW2 the people in German cities did not blame the Nazis that bought the war about, they blamed the allies. Bombing the civilian infrasture and people is a war crime, plus can achieve nothing good, the people do not the ability to overthrow the regime.

 

[Barkmann]

All the brain washed parents with their equally children, think they have a win win situation in either President Trump backs off or they get martyred and enter paradise.
However there is a bomb, I forget its official designation, but known as a graphite bomb that coats the electricity stations with graphite powder, that causes short circuits, knocking out it out, until the graphite has been cleaned away, which could be days or weeks and could be done again and again, and though temporary doesn't destroy the infrastructure.

So it could better for the Iranian people, if they can get rid of these tyrants, but remember, if it was the other way round, there would be no ***** footing around.
So while there might still be casualties, hopefully minor and not fatalities.
This time tomorrow, we may see what has happened.

Bomb is called a BLU-114/B, works mainly by creating a cloud of carbon fibers, they unspool and lay on the uninsulated power lines, very short benefit, 24 to 48 hours.

It does affect civilians, as water and sewage plants need power and one consequence of using the bomb in the past have been outbreaks of Chlorea and other waterborne diseases. The US used it during the first Gulf War, it only disrupted supplies for 24 hours and they bombed again [well used Tomahawks], as well as dropping bombs from F117, before that they used it in the Balkans War, only worked for 24 hours. Was found not be effective enough for the effort, i sat through a very boring explanation/lecture during Desert Shield, by technical people who must have had an operation to remove their personalities, was part of our unit that was designated to attend as i had an A level in Physics and was doing a PT degree in electrical engineering, which was actually a lot about blowing s**t up, as well as building it.

The power [and water supplies] in Iran are decentralised, close to 200 power stations and both power and water are linked to neighbouring countries, for exporting and importing power and water, outbreaks of diseases do not appreciate borders and would certainly spread to places such as Turkey, Afganisaton and many others. Picked up this paragraph last week from the BBC news Arab network, opinion was given by an Oxford Uni academic who is an expert on the region.
I think only be affecting the everyday people in Iran, whom have no power or influence on decision making. Those in power that need to be toppled will have generators and closed circuit systems. Finally we are not talking about people who live in the developed world, they are use to hardship, cutting off power and water is not as major issue as we in the West think. We live in a society that if the internet or the wifi goes down for people it is the end of the world.

 

[Barkmann]

To change the thread a bit, does anyone know what was used to shoot down the F15 and other US aircraft in Iran? There was a news story as well that an A10 Warthog was shot down around the same time and the pilot was rescued. I am not thinking like the beginning of the book [and film] Flight of the Intruder, where some guy just points his rifle up and take a potshot....or maybe they did. Was there something more, i have a feeling there are 10s of thousands of shoulder launched SAMs there.

 

[Combat]

you keep saying Obama just gave them our money...that is an untrue spin you're putting on that story...
the money was paid to the US for munitions...that we never delivered to them...it was Iran's money that we gave them back...

this is the story that relates to that...

In January 2016, the Obama administration transferred $400 million in cash to Iran, which was the first installment of a larger $1.7 billion settlement. This payment was related to a failed 1979 arms deal, but its timing coincided with the release of several American prisoners, leading to significant political debate over whether it constituted a "ransom" payment...

• The Original Deal: Before the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the U.S.-backed Shah of Iran paid $400 million into a trust fund for U.S. military equipment that was never delivered.
• The Settlement: After 35 years of litigation at the Iran-U.S. Claims Tribunal in The Hague, the Obama administration settled the claim. The U.S. agreed to pay back the $400 million principal plus $1.3 billion in interest, totaling $1.7 billion.

Ultimately, the administration argued that settling the case for $1.7 billion saved American taxpayers money, as they estimated the tribunal would have ordered them to pay much more in interest.

I said he sent them a plane loaded with $400 million in cash. That's just a fact. One of the single dumbest acts in the history of diplomacy. Giving such money to a state committed to enabling terrorism and the destruction of the US and Israel can't be justified. And it didn't work. It would have been laughable except for the consequences that it bolstered the country behind Oct. 7 and many other terrorist acts.

 

[Warrior]

This is not an easy off. I am fine if we let them linger for a bit wondering what we will do next. I think Trump should go dark and be non committal for a bit. Let’s see what happens then. Let them stick their neck out when they think the coast is clear and then we should cut it off. Sometimes the best negotiating position is to pause and be quiet
Tom

I'm all for this, stop broadcasting what you're going to do, just let things lie and say or do nothing for awhile.

 

[Combat]

Here is an idea, stop telling them you want to talk while punching them in the face. Stop bombing them, get the israeli's to stop bombing them, as they are leading on this and have fooled the US government into joining them. Then negociate what is needed, required, wanted, offering them something in return, not just the idea that not being bombed is a good enough reason to agree. The US is losing, this as the administration is looking at it as a bomb physical things. While for the Iranians it is an idealogy, physical stuff does not matter. The bombing of civilians will just make more enemies, when the bombs are falling and killing their family and friends they will blame the Americans and the Jews [Israel]. As the seed of hatred is already there and it is human nature, even during WW2 the people in German cities did not blame the Nazis that bought the war about, they blamed the allies. Bombing the civilian infrasture and people is a war crime, plus can achieve nothing good, the people do not the ability to overthrow the regime.

That has worked out great over the last 50 years. We've made so much progress talking with them. They are reasonable people - right? Maybe we should send them another plane full of cash. If it is a crime to bomb civilians, then what exactly have the Iranians been doing for decades? They fund terrorist attacks on civilians. They murder their own civilians. They are currently randomly firing missiles at civilians in several countries. But the US and Israel are the bad guys? It amazes me how someone can criticize the conduct of the US and Israel and ignore the reasons underlying the conduct. Iran is not some backwater country like Afghanistan. It's a very modern place. Turn the electricity and water off for an extended time and they will be hurting. There are no guarantees of success when dealing with fanatics but doing nothing and allowing them to build a nuclear weapon is not an option. Sometimes you have to go with the best of several bad options. The fault, however, does not lie with Israel or the US. It is entirely that of the Iranian regime. All this could easily be avoided by conducting themselves by the rules of civilization.

 

[Warrior]

you keep saying Obama just gave them our money...that is an untrue spin you're putting on that story...
the money was paid to the US for munitions...that we never delivered to them...it was Iran's money that we gave them back...

this is the story that relates to that...

In January 2016, the Obama administration transferred $400 million in cash to Iran, which was the first installment of a larger $1.7 billion settlement. This payment was related to a failed 1979 arms deal, but its timing coincided with the release of several American prisoners, leading to significant political debate over whether it constituted a "ransom" payment...

• The Original Deal: Before the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the U.S.-backed Shah of Iran paid $400 million into a trust fund for U.S. military equipment that was never delivered.
• The Settlement: After 35 years of litigation at the Iran-U.S. Claims Tribunal in The Hague, the Obama administration settled the claim. The U.S. agreed to pay back the $400 million principal plus $1.3 billion in interest, totaling $1.7 billion.

Ultimately, the administration argued that settling the case for $1.7 billion saved American taxpayers money, as they estimated the tribunal would have ordered them to pay much more in interest.

Here is my cousins reply to your post;

"You can tell whoever wrote that that we should've deducted $1.7BB in damages for them overrunning our embassy in 1979 and told them to go @#$% themselves.

Obama also delivered it literally in pallets of cash so they could fund terrorism, unmarked bills he gave them like he was negotiating with a kidnapper and it was some sort of ransom we paid them.

He gave some lame excuse about " arcane banking laws", he was totally in the tank for Iran."

So he does not view things quite the same way that you do; ironic as he's also Greek, I thought for sure he'd go along with your post.

He also thinks we should "turn Iran into a parking lot and wipe them off the face of the earth once and for all."

So there you have it.