YANKEES Clinch AL East! (1 Viewer)

[Louis Badolato]

George,

As I lifelong Yankees fan, who watched virtually ever game during the Torre era, I have to completely disagree with you about Joe Torre. In my opinion he is, simply stated, totally overrated. He always had the best players, the highest payroll, and he gets credit for those championships. He deserves credit for those championships the same way I deserve credit for K&C's products. I sit on my butt admiring K&C things, and make suggestions and nice polite comments about them, but it is Andy, Gordon and the K&C players who get the job done.

Joe Torre never really managed. Once he lost Zimmer in 2001 he was done. He infuriated fans by playing only the players he liked, overusing the 2-3 bullpen pitchers he liked until their arms deteriorated, and never making any moves, or putting a fire under any player's butt. I started saying he needed to go in 1996 when they hired him, and never changed my toon. If the Yankees were managed by Mike Scocia or your manager during the 1996-2007 period, I believe the Yankess would have won 3 more championships. Joe Torre cost the Yanks a lot of big games with his "just let them play" mentality. No matter how bad a player was underperforming, he never benched anyone. I was so happy when he didn't take that contract, I can't even tell you.

 

[Njja]

I agree with Louis 100%, its interesting that non-Yankee fans are happy

with JT. Lets see what he does with LA.....so far a years worth of hard

work to spend the off season thinking about what might have been!

I'm glad he's gone! "The Boss" will provide all the talent you could ask for....

the manager has to put it to use and bring home a Championship.

Its that simple, "The Boss" is willing to open his wallet every year, he will

give the manager whatever talent he needs.....just win baby!

Al Davis from Oakland says the same thing........only "The Boss" backs it

up.

 

[tdubel]

George,

As I lifelong Yankees fan, who watched virtually ever game during the Torre era, I have to completely disagree with you about Joe Torre. In my opinion he is, simply stated, totally overrated. He always had the best players, the highest payroll, and he gets credit for those championships. He deserves credit for those championships the same way I deserve credit for K&C's products. I sit on my butt admiring K&C things, and make suggestions and nice polite comments about them, but it is Andy, Gordon and the K&C players who get the job done.

Joe Torre never really managed. Once he lost Zimmer in 2001 he was done. He infuriated fans by playing only the players he liked, overusing the 2-3 bullpen pitchers he liked until their arms deteriorated, and never making any moves, or putting a fire under any player's butt. I started saying he needed to go in 1996 when they hired him, and never changed my toon. If the Yankees were managed by Mike Scocia or your manager during the 1996-2007 period, I believe the Yankess would have won 3 more championships. Joe Torre cost the Yanks a lot of big games with his "just let them play" mentality. No matter how bad a player was underperforming, he never benched anyone. I was so happy when he didn't take that contract, I can't even tell you.

Louis,

You know I am not committed one way or the other on this conversation, I just happen to be a baseball fan. I can see where you are coming from as a fan, but the Yanks also had a lot of talent prior to Torre and didn't win? He had to do something right at the time? Again, I also understand as a fan it is time to move and and I agree Torre's time in NY was over and it ended in a good manner, I believe all sides were happy.

I am glad you mentioned Zimmer, he was a gem, a true baseball mind and study.

Tom

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis,

You know I am not committed one way or the other on this conversation, I just happen to be a baseball fan. I can see where you are coming from as a fan, but the Yanks also had a lot of talent prior to Torre and didn't win? He had to do something right at the time? Again, I also understand as a fan it is time to move and and I agree Torre's time in NY was over and it ended in a good manner, I believe all sides were happy.

I am glad you mentioned Zimmer, he was a gem, a true baseball mind and study.

Tom

Tom,

You are my good friend, and I respect your baseball knowledge, but I don't think you were really following the Yankees, or have a good read on their talent pre-Torre. In the mid-1980's Steinbrenner got suspended from baseball for the whole mess with Dave Winfield. With the exception of Don Mattingly, the Yankees had no talent from that point until Gene Michael started to rebuild the team in the early 1990's. He developed players like Jeter, Bernie Williams, Andy Pettitte and Mo Rivera, and obtained players like Paul O'Neill, Jack McDowell, Joe Girardi, Wade Boggs and Daryll Strawberry. However, Pettitte, Jeter, Mo Rivera didn't arrive or come into there own until 1996, and the Yankees, who made the playoffs and lost in extra innings of the deciding 5th game of a 5 game series in 1995, didn't get the last couple of pitchers they needed until 1996, and in some cases 1998 (David Cone, David Wells, Orlando Hernandez) or 1999 (Roger Clemens). The Yankees fantastic position players also arrived for the most part after 1995, like Scott Brosius (1998), Tino Martinez (1996), Tim Raines (1996), Chick Knobloch (1998), Derek Jeter (1996) and even Jorge Posada (1998). Torre was the benificiary of a 1996 team loaded with talent and hungry after that heartbreaking extra-inning series loss the the Mariners. He was also the beneficiary of the great baseball mind of Don Zimmer, who really managed the team from 1996 through 2000, when they won all of the championships. Joe would sit next to Don on the bench, and Don would lean over and tell him something, and all of a sudden Joe would make a move, or call for a hit and run.

As far as what Joe Torre is doing with the Dodgers, they are in the weakest Division in baseball, so should always make the playoffs and have home field in the opening round short series. He got rolled by the Phillies in the NLCS last year, and looks to get rolled by them again this year. Let him win a title without the benefit of the pinstriped payroll, and maybe I'll change my toon. But I just don't see that happening.

 

[Warrior]

George,

As I lifelong Yankees fan, who watched virtually ever game during the Torre era, I have to completely disagree with you about Joe Torre. In my opinion he is, simply stated, totally overrated. He always had the best players, the highest payroll, and he gets credit for those championships. He deserves credit for those championships the same way I deserve credit for K&C's products. I sit on my butt admiring K&C things, and make suggestions and nice polite comments about them, but it is Andy, Gordon and the K&C players who get the job done.

Joe Torre never really managed. Once he lost Zimmer in 2001 he was done. He infuriated fans by playing only the players he liked, overusing the 2-3 bullpen pitchers he liked until their arms deteriorated, and never making any moves, or putting a fire under any player's butt. I started saying he needed to go in 1996 when they hired him, and never changed my toon. If the Yankees were managed by Mike Scocia or your manager during the 1996-2007 period, I believe the Yankess would have won 3 more championships. Joe Torre cost the Yanks a lot of big games with his "just let them play" mentality. No matter how bad a player was underperforming, he never benched anyone. I was so happy when he didn't take that contract, I can't even tell you.

Louis,
That is a totall flawed arguement. The same can be said of Phil Jackson, who had Micheal Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Rodman among others in Chicago, then Shaq and Kobie and now Kobie and the rest of the crew in La La land.

Can also be said of KC Jones here in Boston, who had Bird, McHale, Parrish, Johnson, Walton, etc, etc.

You can have all the talent in the world, but it takes a great manager/coach to tie it all together and have them put their bloated, massive egos aside and play as a team.

Those Yankee teams of the mid to late 90's that won all of those championships under Mr Torre weren't loaded with superstars, they had some great players but also some key role players and Mr Torre made it all work.

In 2003, the 7 game ALCS wore out the Yankees and they ran into a charged up Marlins team. In 2001, you should have won the World Series; game 7, Rivera on the mound, should have been all over, he blew it, not Mr Torre.

Regarding 2004, Yankee fans are just torked off because you lost to the Red Sox and we went on to win our first World Series in 86 years; we did it going through you and that is what annoys Yankee fans, not that they lost the series.

All I am saying is I love how people look back with 20/20 hindsight; the guy was and still is a great manager like it or not.

And dont' get me started on Zimmer;a terrific guy, but he'll always be remembered around here as the guy who had the keys to the store in 1978 when they blew a 14 game lead to the Yankees. He was also the manager of the 84 Cubs, who blew the ALCS to the Padres.

Great bench coach though, I'll give him that.

Terrible manager

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis,
That is a totall flawed arguement. The same can be said of Phil Jackson, who had Micheal Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Rodman among others in Chicago, then Shaq and Kobie and now Kobie and the rest of the crew in La La land.

Can also be said of KC Jones here in Boston, who had Bird, McHale, Parrish, Johnson, Walton, etc, etc.

You can have all the talent in the world, but it takes a great manager/coach to tie it all together and have them put their bloated, massive egos aside and play as a team.

Those Yankee teams of the mid to late 90's that won all of those championships under Mr Torre weren't loaded with superstars, they had some great players but also some key role players and Mr Torre made it all work.

In 2003, the 7 game ALCS wore out the Yankees and they ran into a charged up Marlins team. In 2001, you should have won the World Series; game 7, Rivera on the mound, should have been all over, he blew it, not Mr Torre.

Regarding 2004, Yankee fans are just torked off because you lost to the Red Sox and we went on to win our first World Series in 86 years; we did it going through you and that is what annoys Yankee fans, not that they lost the series.

All I am saying is I love how people look back with 20/20 hindsight; the guy was and still is a great manager like it or not.

And dont' get me started on Zimmer;a terrific guy, but he'll always be remembered around here as the guy who had the keys to the store in 1978 when they blew a 14 game lead to the Yankees. He was also the manager of the 84 Cubs, who blew the ALCS to the Padres.

Great bench coach though, I'll give him that.

Terrible manager

The same thing can be said of Phil Jackson. Do you really think he wins all those titles, or any of those titles, without Jordon, Pippen, Rodman, Shaq and Kobe?

And as far as your argument about the late 1990's teams not having superstars, they had pitching superstars. David Cone, Orlando Hernandez, David Wells, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera . . . with that pitching staff, I dare say you could have won a couple of championships as the manager.

And the last time a checked, Wade Boggs is a hall of famer, Tino Martinez is one of the best first basemen of the last 20 years, Derek Jeter is going to the hall of fame on the first ballet, Scott Brosius, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill Jorge Posado and Chick Knoblach were all perineal allstars, so there were quite a few excellent players on those 90 teams, more talent than any other team in that era by far.

And everyone remembers Mo blowing the save in game 7 of the 2001 World Series, but everyone overlooks the fact that if it wasn't for half a dozen miraculous plays, the Yankees never make it out of the first round, or past game 5 of the World Series. The Yankees lineup, which Joe Torre never changes a lick, didn't hit at all in the 2001 post season. If Derek Jeter doesn't make the miracle flip play at home plate in game 3 in Oakland, the Yankees are swept in the first round. If Scott Brosius, Tino Martinez and Derek Jeter don't hit miracle home runs in the 9th inning and later, and Byun Young Kim doesn't melt down and blow 3 straight saves, the Yanks lose in 4 or 5 games. How do you give Joe Torre any credit for those miracles?

And in 2004, in the 8th inning with one out, no one on and a 2 run lead, Joe Torre, as always, pitched to David Ortiz who promptly hit one out, as he did just about every time the Yankees pitched to him in that series. Every fan in the sports bar where I watched that game was screaming "walk him, stick out your arm, walk him!" But genius Joe Torre put you back in the series. At least with the Dodgers he finally learned from his many mistakes with the Yankees - don't let the best hitter on the other team beat you. He intentially walked Albert Pujols about 6 times in a 3 games. If he had a clue, he would have intentially walked Ortiz, and dared the rest of that lineup to push his slow butt across home plate.

Lets see what happens this year. Girardi has less pitching than Joe Torre had in 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001. There is no way that CC and Burnett are as good as either Cone or Clemens in their prime. The Pettitte Torre had was in his prime, the present Pettitte is on his last legs. Boomer Wells, Orlando Hernandez and Mike Mussina in their prime are infinitely better than Joba Chamberlain and Chad Gaudin. The young Derek Jeter Torre had was marginally better than the older Jeter of this year. Girardi and the younger healthy Posado are way better than the beat up older Posado and Molina. Tino and Teixera are about a wash. A-Rod is a superstar, but, as good as he is playing this postseason, it is still not as good as Brosius was in the post season from 1998 through 2000. The Torre outfield of Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams and Tim Raines is infinitely better than the present Nick Swisher, Melky Cabrera Jhonny Damon outfield. Even Mariano is not quite what he was back in the 1996-2000 run.

If Girardi gets number 27 for the Yanks this year, for my money he has done more with less than Torre ever did.

 

[Warrior]

If Girardi gets number 27 for the Yanks this year, for my money he has done more with less than Torre ever did.

All I can say to that is wow.

I mean just wow.

Cashman went out and bought the three best players on the market and you're payroll is over 200 million.

Let me repeat; you have a payroll north of 200 million.

More with less?

Your local little league manager could have gotten this team to the playoffs.

 

[Louis Badolato]

All I can say to that is wow.

I mean just wow.

Cashman went out and bought the three best players on the market and you're payroll is over 200 million.

Let me repeat; you have a payroll north of 200 million.

More with less?

Your local little league manager could have gotten this team to the playoffs.

George,

Payroll is a number. If it guaranteed the best players the Yanks would win every year. I noticed you pulled the last line of my post, but I don't see you disagreeing with my analaysis of the talent on the late 1990's teams as measured against this team. Oh, and Joe Torre's teams had far and away the highest payrolls every year from 1996 through 2007.

Answer me one simple question: If you could take the Yankees roster from the 1998-2000 run, or the 2009 Yankees roster, and put them all on the Red Sox with your current coaching staff, which set would you chose to win you a title? If you tell me you would take the players on the 2009 team over the players on those late 90's teams, I would question your sanity.

 

[Njja]

Let me repeat; you have a payroll north of 200 million.

...................................................................................................

Yes thanks to one person "The Boss"

You can love him or hate him (I watched him take a lot of abuse at little

Yankee stadium in Ft. Lauderdale) when I lived there, but he certainly does

what he can to provide the best sports team for the NYC fans.

 

[Warrior]

...................................................................................................

Yes thanks to one person "The Boss"

You can love him or hate him (I watched him take a lot of abuse at little

Yankee stadium in Ft. Lauderdale) when I lived there, but he certainly does

what he can to provide the best sports team for the NYC fans.

No John, you can thank the fans of New York who shell out a small fortune to support the team at the stadium and through the Yes network, that is where all the dough is coming from to put the best team in baseball on the field.

All Steinbrenner does is sign the checks, Cashman is the one who goes out and gets the players................

 

[Warrior]

George,

Payroll is a number. If it guaranteed the best players the Yanks would win every year. I noticed you pulled the last line of my post, but I don't see you disagreeing with my analaysis of the talent on the late 1990's teams as measured against this team. Oh, and Joe Torre's teams had far and away the highest payrolls every year from 1996 through 2007.

Answer me one simple question: If you could take the Yankees roster from the 1998-2000 run, or the 2009 Yankees roster, and put them all on the Red Sox with your current coaching staff, which set would you chose to win you a title? If you tell me you would take the players on the 2009 team over the players on those late 90's teams, I would question your sanity.

The Yankees did not make the playoffs in 2008.

Hal Steinbrenner gave Cashman the company checkbook and told him to outspend the Red Sox for "Teshata" (there's a moron here in Boston who calls the local sports talk radio show and babbles on and on about the Yankees and this is how he pronounces his name; oh and you Yankee fans can thank HIS WIFE for him ending up in New York as her family is from Baltimore and did you really think the Orioles had a shot at getting him, so he ended up in "Da Bronx", "Don Mattingly is my idol"......please, spare us) and to go and get CC.

Then he trumped that by getting Burnett, so you got THE two best pitchers and THE best hitter.

Anyone who was anyone said the Yankees were a lock to win the World Series, so in this case, payroll is not a number, you got the three best free agents on the market, have the highest payroll in the history of baseball and should go on and win your 27th World Series.

Wonderful.

And naturallly I would take the mid 90's Yankees over this bunch; they won 4 World Series and went to 6 (and should have won a fifth), while this group had yet to win a playoff SERIES in the past five years until they beat the mighty Twins, let alone a World SERIES.

We'll see how your pitching holds up; it's easy to sweep the Royals in August when you outscore them by 900 runs, we'll see what happens when the pitching you face gets better in the World Series.

Thus far, your pitching has been the story while your offense has been mediocre at best, yet you have still managed to go 5-0 in the playoffs, which is a credit to your starters and your bullpen............................

 

[Njja]

No John, you can thank the fans of New York who shell out a small fortune to support the team at the stadium and through the Yes network, that is where all the dough is coming from to put the best team in baseball on the field.

All Steinbrenner does is sign the checks, Cashman is the one who goes out and gets the players................

...................................................................................................

Sounds like tipical Boston sour grapes to me. I am one of the fans that shell

out $$$ to the Yankees, and I do it with a smile. I am right now

considering a seat from Yankee Stadium for my den or shop. Mr S bought the

team for 10 measly million in 1973 probably one of the greatest business deals

ever made! He signs the checks because he was in the right place at the right

time with cash in hand. And what a deal it was!

 

[Njja]

Hal Steinbrenner gave Cashman the company checkbook and told him to outspend the Red Sox.....

...................................................................................................

The Steinbrenner's outspend the Red Sox for diner......nightly!

 

[tdubel]

You guys are too much, heck I just like Torre, he cracks me up.

Nothing against the Sox or the Yanks, whoever is in it at the time, I root for them.

I am Burgh Pirates fan and let me tell you, you are very lucky you have teams that field a team to compete!!!!

Tom

 

[Louis Badolato]

The Yankees did not make the playoffs in 2008.

Hal Steinbrenner gave Cashman the company checkbook and told him to outspend the Red Sox for "Teshata" (there's a moron here in Boston who calls the local sports talk radio show and babbles on and on about the Yankees and this is how he pronounces his name; oh and you Yankee fans can thank HIS WIFE for him ending up in New York as her family is from Baltimore and did you really think the Orioles had a shot at getting him, so he ended up in "Da Bronx", "Don Mattingly is my idol"......please, spare us) and to go and get CC.

Then he trumped that by getting Burnett, so you got THE two best pitchers and THE best hitter.

Anyone who was anyone said the Yankees were a lock to win the World Series, so in this case, payroll is not a number, you got the three best free agents on the market, have the highest payroll in the history of baseball and should go on and win your 27th World Series.

Wonderful.

And naturallly I would take the mid 90's Yankees over this bunch; they won 4 World Series and went to 6 (and should have won a fifth), while this group had yet to win a playoff SERIES in the past five years until they beat the mighty Twins, let alone a World SERIES.

We'll see how your pitching holds up; it's easy to sweep the Royals in August when you outscore them by 900 runs, we'll see what happens when the pitching you face gets better in the World Series.

Thus far, your pitching has been the story while your offense has been mediocre at best, yet you have still managed to go 5-0 in the playoffs, which is a credit to your starters and your bullpen............................

George,

I completely agree with you that as a result of missing the playoffs in 2008 the Yankees went out and obtained the best three free agents on the market. This has always been not just the Yankees, but just about every big market franchise in every sport's reaction to failure. The Red Sox are no exception, and, from the time Theo Epstein took over the team until this season, they have, frankly, done a far better job of it than the Yankees. Eptesin got Curt Schilling, Cashman got Randy Johnson, advantage Epstein. Epstein traded a bag of balls to the Marlins for Josh Beckett, with the supposed disadvantage to the deal being picking up Lowell's contract (he has been fantastic for the Red Sox at 3rd base), Cashman bought Carl Pavano, advantage Epstein. Cashman got Giambi and A-Rod, Epstein got Ortiz, advantage Epstein. So the Red Sox won two titles playing the same go out and spend game as the Yankees, they just did a better job this decade. Stick Michaels did a much better job for the Yankees in the 1990's, and won 4 titles as a result.

We also agree that Stick Michael's Yankees from 1996-2000 were much more talented than the 2009 Yankees Cashman put together.

I thought the whole point of our conversation was a discussion of the merits of Joe Torre as a manager. Frankly, I think it is again advantage Epstein. He hired Terry Francona, who has done an amazing job with the talent Epstein gave him. I think Mike Scoscia has done a better job with the Angels than even Francona did with the Red Sox. I would put Torre behind both of these managers (both of whom have kicked his butt head to head in playoff series). Girardi is still a relative newby, but he did a pretty darn good job with a young Marlins team in his first stint as a manager, and handled the umpteen injuries the Yankees suffered in 2008 pretty well, they were only eliminated in the last weekend of the season. This year, with admittedly tons of talent, he led the Yankees to the best record in baseball, and won his first ever playoff series via a sweep, against a hot team you predicted would upset the Yankees earlier on this thread.

He has also won the first two games against the Angels, the team with the second best record in baseball this year. If he wins the penant, and goes on to win the World Series (neither outcome being set in stone at this point), in my opinion, he has done a better job than Joe Torre would have done.

 

[DMNamiot]

Louis you forgot the 50 mil they spent tjust to talk to my favorite overratered Japanese pitcher.

Seriously Guys the money spent is a direct result of the money being made by the franchise. If the Yankees and the Red Sox didnt make the sort of money they do they would not be spending it. No owner is going to shell out big bucks and take a loss in the money game thats not why they own the team. They want to make money and the way you do that is to spend it on the guys who will perform. I think some of the red sox better players are way underpaid and hope when free agency pops up you will have to put up or shut up. Take a look at what you paid Ortiz this year and ask your self if it was worth it. Nothing against big papi but he is declining and its time to look else where.

Dave

 

[Warrior]

...................................................................................................

Sounds like tipical Boston sour grapes to me.

Sour grapes?

The Red Sox pulled the biggest comeback in MLB (Hell, SPORTS) history coming back from down 0-3 to beat the Yankees in the 2004 ALCS and go on to win their first World Series title in 86 years in 2004.

We followed that up with another title in 2007.

The Red Sox have been to the post season 6 times this decade, 4 ALCS and have won 2 World Series and are the MLB team of the decade.

I haven't had sour grapes towards the Yankees since 2003.

So you're wrong (as usual)...................

 

[Njja]

Sour grapes? The Red Sox have been to the post season 6 times this decade, 4 ALCS and have won 2 World Series and are the MLB team of the decade.
I haven't had sour grapes towards the Yankees since 2003.
So you're wrong (as usual)...................

.....................................................................................................

Yes lets see thats 24 World Series behind the YANKEES!

Enough Said

By the way, I couldn't name a single player on Boston or their manager.....

why? I couldn't care less.

Its interesting you are such a Joe Torre fan! Heres a shot of him to keep you

going..........since Boston is toast!

 

[Warrior]

.....................................................................................................

Yes lets see thats 24 World Series behind the YANKEES!

Enough Said

By the way, I couldn't name a single player on Boston or their manager.....

why? I couldn't care less.

Its interesting you are such a Joe Torre fan! Heres a shot of him to keep you

going..........since Boston is toast!

Nope, sorry John, you are wrong once again; the Red Sox have seven World Series titles, not two.....

For a guy who claims to be a baseball fan, you really don't know much about the history of the game do you?....

The reason you don't know the name of the Red Sox manager or any of our players is you are a front runner; guaranteed from 1967 through 1975 and again from 1982 through 1995 you weren't a Yankee fan, reason being is they positively stunk all of those years.

It's ok to admit it John, you front runner........

 

[Njja]

Nope, sorry John, you are wrong once again; the Red Sox have seven World Series titles, not two.....
It's ok to admit it John, you front runner........

......................................................................................................

I picked up the 2 World Series from your posts. If they won 5 previous titles back in the stone age......ok that leaves them 19 behind the YANKEES!

I have been a YANKEE fan and NY Football Giants fan for over
half a century now if that equals front runner to you.......

Win or lose those are my teams.....but like "The Boss" I prefer to Win!

I also admire greatly Vince Lombardi a fellow Italian and outstanding
Coach! Even though I was a Giants fan I admired what he accomplished at
Green Bay. Now that man was a Winner!