a dreaded scale question (3 Viewers)

[MapleLeaf]

Sculptor has lot to do with difference in size
If i'm not mistaking FL second release of Highlanders
are bigger than the first release. Different sculptor
although FL tries to keep same sculptor for same range
it is not easy to do so .

 

[armchair warrior]

Guys,

Again thanks for all the input. Since I started the thread I just want to restate my issue. I don't care if my figures and AFV'S are 1/30, 1/32 1/28 or 1/16 trillion. It doesn't matter. I don't mix makers because they are all different whether it is size or style. I BUY TGM SOLDIERS SO WHATEVER SCALE THEY ARE I WANT THE **** VEHICLES IN THE SAME SCALE.AM I ASKING TOO MUCH? To each his own, as was stated before some collectors prefer big figures that don't fit the smaller vehicles. The reason I don't collect K&C anymore is that they changed mid stream(and have gone crazy with price increases). I always suspected that their vehicles were too small but they and many collector's on this forum said "no K&C ARE THE REAL 1/30th".

You could tell their AFV's were too small just by looking at the tiny crew figures. And there was much greater than just a 2/32 difference. The crew figures were like jockeys compared to normal size men. So at some point, I think it was the Tunisian Tiger release, they said "Oh yeah, they haven't been the same scale as the figures all along, now we are going to make them 1/30". All of a sudden I had 2 different scale fleets of vehicles in the same range. That really sucked but at least we finally got them to upsize the vehicles. ALL I WANT IS CONSISTENCY. Maybe it is the figures, if they are too big make 'em smaller, if not make the vehicles bigger.

Does anyone out there have the TCS Hetzer and the TGM version? Would love to see if there is a difference. For the record the TGM Hetzer is very detailed and well painted and a great price. If the size issue does not bother you it is worth getting.

Anyway, thanks for listening to my rant. Like all of us I really do love this stuff.

Armchair Warrior

 

[OzDigger]

AW, sorry if my query on actual sizes upset you by including your quote in my post, it was not my intention. Like you I am also not concerned about the exact scale of the figures or the vehicles, I just wanted them the same scale if that is all possible. I really looked forward to the new TGM vehicles because they were starting from a clean slate and had an opportunity to get it right. I hope they still can before they issue anymore vehicles.

 

[OzDigger]

What was I thinking, I no longer collect WWII sets so not much point in me continuing scale debates like this, especially with post rationing on the way. For those members that intend to pursue scale issues with the various TS manufacturers I offer the following based on my past experience: "I can't lie to you about your chances but...you have my sympathies."

 

[Mitch]

I don't really mind what scale the AFV's come in so long as they are exact to what we are told they are. If the hobby says 1/32nd 1/30th or 1/28th fine but, they must stick with that. I think everyone knows the incompatability with the figures and the AFV's but, raising the scale of tanks etc would leave collectors with two incompatable collections even three, depending on how long they had been collecting. 1/32nd scale AFV's and larger figures 1/30th scale AFV's and larger figures and then 1/28th scale figures and correct scale figures. It would be too much for some and heads would explode.

CS tried to raise the scale and it was a one of and, have reverted to the original scale. The problem there was not increasing the size of the AFV which, works with the figures well as everyone who has one will testify it was the wayy it was marketed as 1/30th when it was not. Alex is right in a hobby where it says X it should be X but, we all know its not and, as Oz states probably won't change. we either accept the discrepancy in figure to AFV ratio or.. I am not sure what comes after this as its down to each collector to choose.
Mitch

I don't think you are asking the right question. In all these threads on scale, and I have participated in a couple, everyone seems to like the size of the figures. There really doesn't seem to be much interest I think in TG, KC, CS making the figures smaller. The difference in opinion that I have seen is between those like yourself who prefer the exact 1/30th for AFVs and those like myself who want the AFVs to get larger to 1/28th to match the figures. Most seem to be happy with the size of the figures as is.

Just my opinion.

 

[Firebat]

Guys,

Again thanks for all the input. Since I started the thread I just want to restate my issue. I don't care if my figures and AFV'S are 1/30, 1/32 1/28 or 1/16 trillion. It doesn't matter. I don't mix makers because they are all different whether it is size or style. I BUY TGM SOLDIERS SO WHATEVER SCALE THEY ARE I WANT THE **** VEHICLES IN THE SAME SCALE.AM I ASKING TOO MUCH? To each his own, as was stated before some collectors prefer big figures that don't fit the smaller vehicles. The reason I don't collect K&C anymore is that they changed mid stream(and have gone crazy with price increases). I always suspected that their vehicles were too small but they and many collector's on this forum said "no K&C ARE THE REAL 1/30th".

You could tell their AFV's were too small just by looking at the tiny crew figures. And there was much greater than just a 2/32 difference. The crew figures were like jockeys compared to normal size men. So at some point, I think it was the Tunisian Tiger release, they said "Oh yeah, they haven't been the same scale as the figures all along, now we are going to make them 1/30". All of a sudden I had 2 different scale fleets of vehicles in the same range. That really sucked but at least we finally got them to upsize the vehicles. ALL I WANT IS CONSISTENCY. Maybe it is the figures, if they are too big make 'em smaller, if not make the vehicles bigger.

Does anyone out there have the TCS Hetzer and the TGM version? Would love to see if there is a difference. For the record the TGM Hetzer is very detailed and well painted and a great price. If the size issue does not bother you it is worth getting.

Anyway, thanks for listening to my rant. Like all of us I really do love this stuff.

Armchair Warrior

I hear you...K&C started things off on the wrong foot back in the day and others followed. I have had the occasion to speak to most of the other manufacturers and they love to follow in K&C inaccurate soldier to AFV proportion. I wish a manufacturer would have the nerve to finally break out of K&C 's Toy Soldier attitude and do things right.

FL has done this already but in a non compatible size range. But at least they had the nerve to do something. I just discussed this with Rick (Figarti) recently and I couldnt budge him. Alex

 

[Guy]

Your Hetzer is 100% in 1/30 scale
proof: dimensions of the Hetzer:
L:4,87m without the gun barrel just the hull
W:2.63m (side plates incl)
H:2,17m
in 1/30 scale this gives
L: 16,23cm
W:8,73cm
H: 7,23cm. These are exactly the dimensions of the TG Russian Hetzer
guy

 

[Firebat]

Your Hetzer is 100% in 1/30 scale
proof: dimensions of the Hetzer:
L:4,87m without the gun barrel just the hull
W:2.63m (side plates incl)
H:2,17m
in 1/30 scale this gives
L: 16,23cm
W:8,73cm
H: 7,23cm. These are exactly the dimensions of the TG Russian Hetzer
guy

Thanks Guy

 

[Mitch]

Alex..

why would you want Rick to budge? Their figures are already smaller than CS TG and K&C and, fit with their AFV's and, there is not a huge kick in the teeth's difference between them and FL.

I think for new companies to start like TG et al its obvious they are going to produce whats a seller and whats deemed popular in the hobby. I think its too late in the day for the main manufacturers to start doing compatable figures to AFV's in their own ranges let alone doing it across the board. I think from the way CS has played around with this issue they have tried with alsorts of different ways. its down to the majority of collectors being happy with the status quo. If the majority of collectors wanted absolute compatable 1/30 AFV's and figures they would be being produced right now.

Those that are like FL have cornered a small part of the market but, have not really stripped the main manufacturers of the WWII area. That would tend to maybe suggest that the status quo is harder to break and, I can see why the main mat figure makers stay with what collectors want.
Mitch

I hear you...K&C started things off on the wrong foot back in the day and others followed. I have had the occasion to speak to most of the other manufacturers and they love to follow in K&C inaccurate soldier to AFV proportion. I wish a manufacturer would have the nerve to finally break out of K&C 's Toy Soldier attitude and do things right.

FL has done this already but in a non compatible size range. But at least they had the nerve to do something. I just discussed this with Rick (Figarti) recently and I couldnt budge him. Alex

 

[armchair warrior]

GUY,

Thanks for putting together those figures. I am not that surprised to hear that the TGM Hetzer is 1/30 in scale. I guess the problem is OVERSIZED FIGURES. If somebody out there measured a TGM or K&C figure it would probably come out to 1/28. Would most af you agree with that? What would the exact height of a 1/30 figure be? Like I said before I guess we just have to live with things as they are. Oh, and no offense taken OZ DIGGER. I appreciate everyone's comments and don't have a thin skin.

Armchair Warrior

 

[Phantom Warrior]

GUY,

Thanks for putting together those figures. I am not that surprised to hear that the TGM Hetzer is 1/30 in scale. I guess the problem is OVERSIZED FIGURES. If somebody out there measured a TGM or K&C figure it would probably come out to 1/28. Would most af you agree with that? What would the exact height of a 1/30 figure be? Like I said before I guess we just have to live with things as they are. Oh, and no offense taken OZ DIGGER. I appreciate everyone's comments and don't have a thin skin.

Armchair Warrior

That's the point. There is no exact height or body shape (tall, short, thin, fat) - there is a wide range. Only vehicles with their specifications can be made to an exact scale. The way to judge if a figure is in proportion to a vehicle is to place the figure right next to the model vehicle and see where his head, shoulders, waist looks against a person standing next to the same the same type of vehicle in a 1940's photo.

Terry

 

[Mitch]

Terry..

should we really go by pics from the 40's for a perspective? In those photo's like you mention there are different size troops at that time. Many of the pics that I have of say the LAH in early war show them towering over their early AFV's Panzer I, II and III's as these troops on the whole, were very tall. Going by that some of the figures would look correct size for today's AFV's.

we could ask manufacturers to actually make sets where the figures are different sizes to each other to allow compatability with the current AFV's
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry..

should we really go by pics from the 40's for a perspective? In those photo's like you mention there are different size troops at that time. Many of the pics that I have of say the LAH in early war show them towering over their early AFV's Panzer I, II and III's as these troops on the whole, were very tall. Going by that some of the figures would look correct size for today's AFV's.

we could ask manufacturers to actually make sets where the figures are different sizes to each other to allow compatability with the current AFV's
Mitch

Yes there were different sized tankers. It's ok to use several 1940 photos to get a range of sizes. But most tankers in the 1940s were small - say 5' 6".

Terry

 

[OzDigger]

GUY,

Thanks for putting together those figures. I am not that surprised to hear that the TGM Hetzer is 1/30 in scale. I guess the problem is OVERSIZED FIGURES. If somebody out there measured a TGM or K&C figure it would probably come out to 1/28. Would most af you agree with that? What would the exact height of a 1/30 figure be? Like I said before I guess we just have to live with things as they are. Oh, and no offense taken OZ DIGGER. I appreciate everyone's comments and don't have a thin skin.

Armchair Warrior

Hi Armchair Warrior, there are some sensitive (and unbalanced) wee laddies in this hobby and I'm pleased your not one of them :wink2: ^&grin

Btw guys, I'm enjoying reading these scale discussions, just like old times {sm3}

 

[Firebat]

Alex..

why would you want Rick to budge? Their figures are already smaller than CS TG and K&C and, fit with their AFV's and, there is not a huge kick in the teeth's difference between them and FL.

I think for new companies to start like TG et al its obvious they are going to produce whats a seller and whats deemed popular in the hobby. I think its too late in the day for the main manufacturers to start doing compatable figures to AFV's in their own ranges let alone doing it across the board. I think from the way CS has played around with this issue they have tried with alsorts of different ways. its down to the majority of collectors being happy with the status quo. If the majority of collectors wanted absolute compatable 1/30 AFV's and figures they would be being produced right now.

Those that are like FL have cornered a small part of the market but, have not really stripped the main manufacturers of the WWII area. That would tend to maybe suggest that the status quo is harder to break and, I can see why the main mat figure makers stay with what collectors want.
Mitch

Mitch

I love Figarti stuff, and you are somewhat correct, but the size of their figures are very inconsistent. I have some of my biggest figures from them also.

Their Brits are good and a good size too, the Germans that come with the train are a nice size, their new Russians are on the larger side but the sculpts are decent.

Someone please answer this for me. Why don't collectors want proper proportion?... I dont understand this oversized figure concept. There is a new breed of collector out here that does not want K&C's Toy Soldier look, they want an accurate and proper Military Miniature. Thomas Gunn stuff is excellent I wish he was the company to proportion them correctly, to me they would be the perfect main stream figures.

If there is a sculptor out there that understands what I am talking about contact me please I want to put out my own line of correct figures. I am willing to foot the bill and sink or swim with them. Alex

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Here is a King Tiger 1/1 scale and myself.....standing at 6' 1". Back in the day a tanker of say 5' 10" in height would be 4" shorter than me in the photo.
Point being made here is how large the Tank should look in comparison to people right next to it.

 

[Mitch]

Alex..

I think the proportion issue is only raised by WWII collectors on the whole. I am unsure about the new breed of collectors wanting to move away from K&C toy soldier appearance. Figarti's figures as I have said for a while are IMO asthetically not very appealing. I am not a fan of the way they are painted or, indeed sculpted. Some are better than others as you say some brits have been good and the russians I have seen are good also but, on the whole most are poor for me. I have passed on several sets because of the figures and other problems not at issue here.

You say, and, I agree about TG they are releasing excellent sets which are very dynamic but, if we are saying K&C are toy like and collectors are moving away from that I guess, as a painter, and a knowledgable collector we would have to lay that also at TG's door as some of their camo (which now is beginning to get better) has been a little unrealsitic. Look at some of the zeltbahn's on the cavalry as an example. My wife calls it the fried egg pattern!!! and, while the poses and dynamism of the sets is arguably better than anyone else on the market at the moment I would think its not easy to say K&C are toyish and TG and Figarti escape similar comments.

Many collectors don't care about the scale and size issues and just collect because they like a product flaws and all!!! so, I would think thats why the proportions have not been addressed and, I would venture that many more collectors just shelve or display cabinet their sets than those who attempt to dio them. I think, even though it could be growing, detailers and dio makers in this hobby are still in the minority.

As for sculptors you pay them for the work you require and, if you give them duff info or, allow them artistic licence then you reap the worldwind as Harris would say. If you know your stuff and what you want they can only produce what the person commissioning wants.

Terry...

Thats why I mentioned the germans and the LAH and other units at that time were predominantly filled with taller people than what may have been the average size at that time. They were considerably taller than 5ft 6in
Mitch

 

[Firebat]

Alex..

I think the proportion issue is only raised by WWII collectors on the whole. I am unsure about the new breed of collectors wanting to move away from K&C toy soldier appearance. Figarti's figures as I have said for a while are IMO asthetically not very appealing. I am not a fan of the way they are painted or, indeed sculpted. Some are better than others as you say some brits have been good and the russians I have seen are good also but, on the whole most are poor for me. I have passed on several sets because of the figures and other problems not at issue here.

You say, and, I agree about TG they are releasing excellent sets which are very dynamic but, if we are saying K&C are toy like and collectors are moving away from that I guess, as a painter, and a knowledgable collector we would have to lay that also at TG's door as some of their camo (which now is beginning to get better) has been a little unrealsitic. Look at some of the zeltbahn's on the cavalry as an example. My wife calls it the fried egg pattern!!! and, while the poses and dynamism of the sets is arguably better than anyone else on the market at the moment I would think its not easy to say K&C are toyish and TG and Figarti escape similar comments.

Many collectors don't care about the scale and size issues and just collect because they like a product flaws and all!!! so, I would think thats why the proportions have not been addressed and, I would venture that many more collectors just shelve or display cabinet their sets than those who attempt to dio them. I think, even though it could be growing, detailers and dio makers in this hobby are still in the minority.

As for sculptors you pay them for the work you require and, if you give them duff info or, allow them artistic licence then you reap the worldwind as Harris would say. If you know your stuff and what you want they can only produce what the person commissioning wants.

Terry...

Thats why I mentioned the germans and the LAH and other units at that time were predominantly filled with taller people than what may have been the average size at that time. They were considerably taller than 5ft 6in
Mitch

You make a lot of good points, I realize us modeler types are a minority, but we are growing, you have to admit the volume of dioramas being presented here has grown significantly.

Wouldnt you say there seems to be a lot of concern with AFV proportion and detail by collectors, if not figures.

I have been searching for a sculptor for a year now and I cant find one. Alex

 

[Mitch]

Alex..

I think you are right more dio's and repaints of whats available and, less of the comments about destroying or butchering the sets!!! The hobby is evolving away from the way it was where collectors just had row upon row of AFV's on shelves etc. Thats a good thing but, I always remember that its really different to scale modelling and dio making and, the two work well but, IMO will never entirely come together.

I also agree that a lot more collectors now are willing to say hey!! thats not right, or this should be this, not only for the cost but, for the fact that they have become more discerning. I think thats very important and, is not always greeted in the way it should be.

As for scale don't know what the answer is except its really not rocket science to deliver a standardised size of a specific subject matter. 1/35th and 1/32nd scale hobbies get it right.

You should approach TG I know they were looking at a joint venture with people who had good ideas and an ability to share the finance of a range. Nothing to loose
Mitch

You make a lot of good points, I realize us modeler types are a minority, but we are growing, you have to admit the volume of dioramas being presented here has grown significantly.

Wouldnt you say there seems to be a lot of concern with AFV proportion and detail by collectors, if not figures.

I have been searching for a sculptor for a year now and I cant find one. Alex

 

[Firebat]

Mitch

At least we are demonstrating a constructive and civilized conversation, which involve some differences of opinion, in light of the Forums recent problems.

I think you summed things up well, I respect your thoughts on the matter..

I was there with TG and it got wrecked by outside influence, the bad side of the forum. We did bat around some great ideas on the Airborne line which I hope he does.


Regards
Alex