American civil war: the first modern war in history (4 Viewers)

This post is just utter nonsense. Slave traders marketed in human flesh and very few had compunction about breaking up families. Why do you think Forrest and other traders did not want to buy or sell slaves that had been badly treated? Out of kindness, no because they would not be able to sell them or sell them for high profits. Buyers were not stupid and in the slave market they would examine what they were buying. If a slave had been badly treated, there was less likelihood they would be of utility, particuarly as field hands. Before you start posting nonsense, I suggest you do some serious reading. I would start with Soul by Soul by Walter Joshnson, a study of the New Orleans slave market.

There is no doubt that the North was involved in the economy that made slavery. However, that doesn't lessen or justify the behavior that human beings received as slaves. I would suggest you read some slave accounts. A good place to start is with Frederick Douglass' Narrative of the Life of an American Slave.

This political correctness that you write about, no doubt taken from your "Professor," is also ludicrous. In fact, what we have in the last forty years is a better balanced study of what happened, looking at records that have been looked at before and presenting a more balanced view, getting away from the reconciliationist school of thought.

Brad
I agree with your assessment that there are not only two, but multiple sides to every story. And that in our efforts to uncover as much of the whole truth as is possible from available evidence, we must be open to all of the varying viewpoints.
 
Poppo
I agree with your comments regarding opinions and analysis of historical events. When examining the actions of individuals from the past I think it important to understand the context within which these actions took place. Our “historical heroes” lived and operated under different societal norms and expectations than we do today. Just as we preach tolerance and acceptance of other cultures and views in today’s world, I believe it important to exercise the same consideration for the cultural norms and societal views of the time period under historical discussion. I think that this is especially true when examining the exercise of force (i.e. war or some other form of military/violent behavior).

Brad
I agree with your assessment that there are not only two, but multiple sides to every story. And that in our efforts to uncover as much of the whole truth as is possible from available evidence, we must be open to all of the varying viewpoints.

For me personally, I side with the war aims of the Union and policies of the Lincoln Administration. I have ancestors that fought in the Union Army, one was wounded in the Shenandoah Valley Campaign (1864). On the other side of the coin, I have friends who have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy and owned slaves before the war. From these opposing perspectives we can become engaged in some dynamic discussions.

They espouse certain views and explanations regarding slavery that I find difficult to conceptualize let alone accept. At the same time they level criticisms against the rough manner in which the Yankee troops (my ancestor) prosecuted the late-war campaigns that finally subdued the Confederacy.

When we throw in the perspective of my friends whose ancestors were former slaves, we get an even more interesting debate. And so the wheel turns…
 
This political correctness that you write about, no doubt taken from your "Professor," is also ludicrous. In fact, what we have in the last forty years is a better balanced study of what happened, looking at records that have been looked at before and presenting a more balanced view, getting away from the reconciliationist school of thought.

Brad

Not all professors are bad guys. Joshua L. Chamberlain (former professor of rhetoric at Bowdoin College) did a pretty good job for the Union cause on a pretty important hill during a pretty important battle.

:)
 
For me personally, I side with the war aims of the Union and policies of the Lincoln Administration. I have ancestors that fought in the Union Army, one was wounded in the Shenandoah Valley Campaign (1864). On the other side of the coin, I have friends who have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy and owned slaves before the war. From these opposing perspectives we can become engaged in some dynamic discussions.

They espouse certain views and explanations regarding slavery that I find difficult to conceptualize let alone accept. At the same time they level criticisms against the rough manner in which the Yankee troops (my ancestor) prosecuted the late-war campaigns that finally subdued the Confederacy.

When we throw in the perspective of my friends whose ancestors were former slaves, we get an even more interesting debate. And so the wheel turns…


Thank you for your post.....
I would also say that the great souls of the northern and southern "aristocracies" actually agreed on many points, included the end of slavery: Lincoln being a wise, balanced, merciful and sensible man, before the war planned to end the slavery progressively by giving freedom, an indemnisation and land to the ex slaves and Lee, Davies agreed on this, every wise man in north and south wanted to solve this big problem which had been existing for many years.
"Abolitionists" were very few in the north, limited , restricted groups of fanatic, violent puritans who preached for violent and extreemist solutions. While for the northern society slavery was not a problem at all.
Lincoln was emotionally very sad by the big number of casualties of the war and wanted to welcome back the southern states as a part of the Union. When he was killed, Davies was shocked, and thought, "now it is all finished". And he was right as the "big northern finance" through weak presidents let down the south treating it with the martial law like a colony, not like a part of the Union. Even Sherman was scandalized by the hardness the south was treated.
 
Shane,

I have nothing against Professors and generally as a would be professor, I'm more inclined than not to want a read a book by a trained historian. However, a lot of archival work is being done by non-academics and that shouldn't be discounted. The issue I have with Luraghi is that he is an apologist for the Southern plantation system and slavery. Poppo on more than one occasion has quoted him approvingly. I believe you should read a variety of viewpoints and not just rely on one person, which is why in the past I have encouraged him to read other sources.

Brad
 
Shane,

I have nothing against Professors and generally as a would be professor, I'm more inclined than not to want a read a book by a trained historian. However, a lot of archival work is being done by non-academics and that shouldn't be discounted. The issue I have with Luraghi is that he is an apologist for the Southern plantation system and slavery. Poppo on more than one occasion has quoted him approvingly. I believe you should read a variety of viewpoints and not just rely on one person, which is why in the past I have encouraged him to read other sources.

Brad

Brad

Thank you for providing some of the back-story on what I’ve walked into here. It seems you and Poppo have been engaged in these types of discussions before. Thank you both for including me in the continuation of the debate. I wonder if maybe it’s time to move onto another topic of interest? It appears from my perspective that this friendly disagreement will be continuing for some time.

Shane

:)
 
Thank you for your post.....
I would also say that the great souls of the northern and southern "aristocracies" actually agreed on many points, included the end of slavery: Lincoln being a wise, balanced, merciful and sensible man, before the war planned to end the slavery progressively by giving freedom, an indemnisation and land to the ex slaves and Lee, Davies agreed on this, every wise man in north and south wanted to solve this big problem which had been existing for many years.
"Abolitionists" were very few in the north, limited , restricted groups of fanatic, violent puritans who preached for violent and extreemist solutions. While for the northern society slavery was not a problem at all.
Lincoln was emotionally very sad by the big number of casualties of the war and wanted to welcome back the southern states as a part of the Union. When he was killed, Davies was shocked, and thought, "now it is all finished". And he was right as the "big northern finance" through weak presidents let down the south treating it with the martial law like a colony, not like a part of the Union. Even Sherman was scandalized by the hardness the south was treated.

Andrew Johnson, the man who took office following Lincoln's assasination, was a southern Democrat and therefore not totally in line with the political opinions of the Republican dominated Congress. Sherman and other famous Union officers (Sheridan, Custer etc…) earned themselves quite a reputation on the plains fighting against the Native Americans as well. For all the praise I have bestowed upon Grant as a General, his time as President could be harshly criticized for his administration’s policies regarding Indian affairs.

As Denzel Washington’s character in Glory expressed, “ain’t nobody clean.”
 
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For me it is Forrest.....Aften the war Lee said:" the best of my soldiers is one I never met: Nathan Forrest"

Poppo

You may be interested to know that one of the ancestors of my friend I was referring to rode with Forrest during the war. His brother is actually named Nathan, an obvious tribute to the great cavalry leader.
 
Just a note on Forrest's ability. During the run-up to the battle at Franklin in Nov., 1864, Forrest reported the Federal positions to Hood and explained that they were dug in and ready to stand. With Hood's decision to attack, Forrest said a frontal assault was not neccesary and that if he could borrow some infantry as support to his cavalry, he could then flank the Federals out of their positions. He proposed this and pushed for it, but Hood would have none of it. Forrest was furious at Hood's bull headed decision to make the assault. -- Al

Al

I believe many would agree that Hood was severely beyond his scope as an Army commander. Especially after sustaining the injuries suffered at Gettysburg and Chickamauga. The man had to be suffering from almost constant pain and in all likelihood spent a large amount of time under the influence of pain killers. The choice by Jefferson Davis to entrust him with the defense of Atlanta appears to be an act of shear desperation or more probably frustration with his more senior western commanders. At any rate, Hood’s appointment only served to accelerate the eventual defeat of the Confederates in the west. It’s possible to speculate that the rebels didn’t have any real chance at recovery in this theatre after the Union army broke out of Chattanooga and began their decent on Atlanta.

The events that occurred in Tennessee following the fall of Atlanta and subsequent start of Sherman’s March to the Sea make for interesting reading, but appear to be little more than mopping operations from a pure military point of view. Hood taking the offensive merely sped things along faster than they would have occurred if the Yankee commanders would have had to track him down. No doubt much glory was won for Confederate arms and the more junior commanders such as Forrest and Cleburne during these later engagements.
 
For me personally, I side with the war aims of the Union and policies of the Lincoln Administration. I have ancestors that fought in the Union Army, one was wounded in the Shenandoah Valley Campaign (1864). On the other side of the coin, I have friends who have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy and owned slaves before the war. From these opposing perspectives we can become engaged in some dynamic discussions.

They espouse certain views and explanations regarding slavery that I find difficult to conceptualize let alone accept. At the same time they level criticisms against the rough manner in which the Yankee troops (my ancestor) prosecuted the late-war campaigns that finally subdued the Confederacy.

When we throw in the perspective of my friends whose ancestors were former slaves, we get an even more interesting debate. And so the wheel turns…

Shane,

I will offer my own, far from conventional, view of the political and economic forces behind the Civil War: I don't really believe the Civil War was principally about the Northern States seeking to abolosih Slavery, and the Southern States seeking to perpetuate it, I think this was the excuse floated for public consumption at the time, in the same way that I don't believe the assassination of the Austrian Monarchs by the Serbian student was the real reason for World War I. I offer my own, very different (and perhaps very cynical) assessment:

I believe the real reason for the Civil War was the change in population from the Southern/Aggrarian/Slaveholding states having the votes to control the presidency and Congress to the Northern/Urban/non-slaveholding states gaining control of the government through the mass Irish and German immigration occurring in the decades leading up to the Civil War. I believe that the Southern "aristocracy" - the wealthy "Southern Gentlemen" who had up to this time controlled the United States [look at the presidents prior to Lincoln, most were from Confederate states: Washington (Virginia), Jefferson (Virginia), Madison (Virginia), Monroe (Virginia), Jackson (South Carolina), Harrison (Virginia), Tyler (Virginia), Polk (North Carolina), Zachary Taylor (born in Virginia, lived in Louisiana)], but the shift in population was permitting the northern ruling class, whose money was tied to factories and urban areas, to gain control of the country. I see the Southern States pulling out of the Union, and the resulting Civil War, as the Southern Gentry refusing to permit the Northern power brokers from gaining control over them, and Northern power brokers refusing to let them go. I think the Southern Gentry sold the need to die in the hundreds of thousands to the poor Southerners who did the fighting, the vast majority of whom had never owned a slave, by demonizing Lincoln and the Northerners as trying to take away their rights, while the Northern power brokers sold the war to the Northern populace as a crusade against slavery, and when this didn't work well enough to keep sufficient men in arms, resorted to the draft - indeed, many immigrants were drafted as soon as they stepped off the boats. That the majority of the Northern populace, who were dirt poor factory workers, could care less about the abolition of slavery is strongly evidenced by the "Draft Riots" taking place in Northern cities, notably New York, where mobs turned on the African American population.

I see the Civil War as pure and simply the Aggrarian Upper Class and the Urban Upper Class battling for control over a country whose population had shifted to permit political domination to shift from the former to the latter.
 
Thank you for your post.....
I would also say that the great souls of the northern and southern "aristocracies" actually agreed on many points, included the end of slavery: Lincoln being a wise, balanced, merciful and sensible man, before the war planned to end the slavery progressively by giving freedom, an indemnisation and land to the ex slaves and Lee, Davies agreed on this, every wise man in north and south wanted to solve this big problem which had been existing for many years.
"Abolitionists" were very few in the north, limited , restricted groups of fanatic, violent puritans who preached for violent and extreemist solutions. While for the northern society slavery was not a problem at all.
Lincoln was emotionally very sad by the big number of casualties of the war and wanted to welcome back the southern states as a part of the Union. When he was killed, Davies was shocked, and thought, "now it is all finished". And he was right as the "big northern finance" through weak presidents let down the south treating it with the martial law like a colony, not like a part of the Union. Even Sherman was scandalized by the hardness the south was treated.

From a factual and interpretative perspective, there are many inaccuracies in the above.

There was never any agreement between the South and the North on getting rid of slavery. That is the whole point. Had there been, why would there have been a Civil War. The anti slavery adherents and the Republican Party were determined to contain slavery's expansion and keep it bottled up where it existed. On the other hand, the South felt that it needed slavery to expand. This became a significant issue following the acquisition of land from Mexico following the Mexican American War and found its tipping point in the Kansas Nebraska Act of 1854 which convinced many in the North that further compromise with the South was futile. After that it was only a matter of time between war would break out.

To say that for the North slavery was not a problem at all belies logic. Again, why did we have a war? Now, if you want to say that the North was as rascist as the South, that would be correct. Although slavery had been abolished in most Northern states, several states had "black codes" (notably Illinois and Indiana) and many states had taken away whatever right Blacks had. It needs to be pointed that although many, if not most, people were anti slavery, this doesn't mean they were pro black and in favor of giving Blacks rights. They were not. The Republican Party was a successor to a large degree of the Whig Party, which was a pro business party (in a nutshell) and they disliked slavery because slavery was unfair competition to the white labor force. Slavery gave slaveholders too much of an advantage over the white labor whom the Republicans wanted to populate the generally unsettled western part of the United States.

Lincoln has no plan before the beginning of the war other than to contain slavery where it existed as he felt that it would eventually wither away. He actually supported the then 13th Amendment which would have made Constitutional amendments to outlaw slavery impossible. Personally he was anti slavery but felt the Constitution tied his hands.

Lincoln's compensated emancipation plans didn't originate until early 1862 when he proposed his plan, through the payment of bonds, to the border states, which they rejected.

The Confederacy would never have agreed to abolishing slavery because that is one of the reasons they went to war. A reading of the Confederate Constitution and Alexander Stephens' cornerstone speech (slavery is the cornerstone of our system) demonstrates this. The various attempts at a peaceful resolution to the Civil War always foundered on the point of slavery and how could the South go back on it? To say that Davis was in favor of ending slavery is just a total fiction.

It is correct that the Abolitionists were a minority but they were a very influential minority. For example, the Gag rule was a reaction by the South to the various petitions that Abolititionists kept sending to the House of Representatives. Works such as Federick Douglass' Narrative of the Life of an American Slave and Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin were very influential is turning people against slavery and were best sellers at the time. A modern comparison could be the anti war movement during the Vietnam war: a minority but influential.

As far as Davis being upset that Lincoln was assassinated, that really needs no comment. If you have authority for this statement, I would love to see it.

Lastly, you touch on reconstruction. Lincoln, during the Civil War, had put forth a 10 percent plan: roughly, if 10 percent of the population of a Southern swore loyalty to the Union and amended their Constitution, they could be re-admitted. The Congress generally thought the limits needed to be higher. Pre end of the war reconstruction took place in some states or portions but not most.

With respect to the "harsh treatment" the Southern states received, Radical reconstruction was a reaction to the southern states trying to return the situation to the status quo ante: adopting black codes, treating the freedmen essentially the same way when they were slaves and returning un-reconstructed politicians to Congress and otherwise attempting to disregard the results of the War. This was not helped by Johnson's attitude in departing from what Congress wanted or pardoning former Confederate officials. Would things have been different had Lincoln been President? Maybe, he was a master politician, not to mention the leader of the Republican Party; Johnson was a Democrat. That's the imponderable.
 
Shane,

I will offer my own, far from conventional, view of the political and economic forces behind the Civil War: I don't really believe the Civil War was principally about the Northern States seeking to abolosih Slavery, and the Southern States seeking to perpetuate it, I think this was the excuse floated for public consumption at the time, in the same way that I don't believe the assassination of the Austrian Monarchs by the Serbian student was the real reason for World War I. I offer my own, very different (and perhaps very cynical) assessment:

I believe the real reason for the Civil War was the change in population from the Southern/Aggrarian/Slaveholding states having the votes to control the presidency and Congress to the Northern/Urban/non-slaveholding states gaining control of the government through the mass Irish and German immigration occurring in the decades leading up to the Civil War. I believe that the Southern "aristocracy" - the wealthy "Southern Gentlemen" who had up to this time controlled the United States [look at the presidents prior to Lincoln, most were from Confederate states: Washington (Virginia), Jefferson (Virginia), Madison (Virginia), Monroe (Virginia), Jackson (South Carolina), Harrison (Virginia), Tyler (Virginia), Polk (North Carolina), Zachary Taylor (born in Virginia, lived in Louisiana)], but the shift in population was permitting the northern ruling class, whose money was tied to factories and urban areas, to gain control of the country. I see the Southern States pulling out of the Union, and the resulting Civil War, as the Southern Gentry refusing to permit the Northern power brokers from gaining control over them, and Northern power brokers refusing to let them go. I think the Southern Gentry sold the need to die in the hundreds of thousands to the poor Southerners who did the fighting, the vast majority of whom had never owned a slave, by demonizing Lincoln and the Northerners as trying to take away their rights, while the Northern power brokers sold the war to the Northern populace as a crusade against slavery, and when this didn't work well enough to keep sufficient men in arms, resorted to the draft - indeed, many immigrants were drafted as soon as they stepped off the boats. That the majority of the Northern populace, who were dirt poor factory workers, could care less about the abolition of slavery is strongly evidenced by the "Draft Riots" taking place in Northern cities, notably New York, where mobs turned on the African American population.

I see the Civil War as pure and simply the Aggrarian Upper Class and the Urban Upper Class battling for control over a country whose population had shifted to permit political domination to shift from the former to the latter.

This is really not that far off. It's usually about power. Most people in the North fought to preserve the Union as the concept of Union was very important. I think it's difficult for us to envision that today but at that time the nation was not that old and when the War started a few survivors of the Revolutionary War were still alive. Trying to ask people to go to war to abolish slavery would never have worked, at that time. Later on, it morphed into a war against slavery but partially as a way to save the Union. In addition, people fight for different reasons: some fought for Union but the Black soldiers, which became an important part of the war effort, obviously fought to rid the country of slavery and a chance at a better life.
 
Shane,

I will offer my own, far from conventional, view of the political and economic forces behind the Civil War: I don't really believe the Civil War was principally about the Northern States seeking to abolosih Slavery, and the Southern States seeking to perpetuate it, I think this was the excuse floated for public consumption at the time, in the same way that I don't believe the assassination of the Austrian Monarchs by the Serbian student was the real reason for World War I. I offer my own, very different (and perhaps very cynical) assessment:

I believe the real reason for the Civil War was the change in population from the Southern/Aggrarian/Slaveholding states having the votes to control the presidency and Congress to the Northern/Urban/non-slaveholding states gaining control of the government through the mass Irish and German immigration occurring in the decades leading up to the Civil War. I believe that the Southern "aristocracy" - the wealthy "Southern Gentlemen" who had up to this time controlled the United States [look at the presidents prior to Lincoln, most were from Confederate states: Washington (Virginia), Jefferson (Virginia), Madison (Virginia), Monroe (Virginia), Jackson (South Carolina), Harrison (Virginia), Tyler (Virginia), Polk (North Carolina), Zachary Taylor (born in Virginia, lived in Louisiana)], but the shift in population was permitting the northern ruling class, whose money was tied to factories and urban areas, to gain control of the country. I see the Southern States pulling out of the Union, and the resulting Civil War, as the Southern Gentry refusing to permit the Northern power brokers from gaining control over them, and Northern power brokers refusing to let them go. I think the Southern Gentry sold the need to die in the hundreds of thousands to the poor Southerners who did the fighting, the vast majority of whom had never owned a slave, by demonizing Lincoln and the Northerners as trying to take away their rights, while the Northern power brokers sold the war to the Northern populace as a crusade against slavery, and when this didn't work well enough to keep sufficient men in arms, resorted to the draft - indeed, many immigrants were drafted as soon as they stepped off the boats. That the majority of the Northern populace, who were dirt poor factory workers, could care less about the abolition of slavery is strongly evidenced by the "Draft Riots" taking place in Northern cities, notably New York, where mobs turned on the African American population.

I see the Civil War as pure and simply the Aggrarian Upper Class and the Urban Upper Class battling for control over a country whose population had shifted to permit political domination to shift from the former to the latter.
Very interesting, Louis, but not as cynical or unconventional as you might think. It is, remarkably, almost identical to my college ACW history professor's interpretation, a view that I find not unlikely. Nice job. -- Al
 
Very interesting, Louis, but not as cynical or unconventional as you might think. It is, remarkably, almost identical to my college ACW history professor's interpretation, a view that I find not unlikely. Nice job. -- Al

So, you (and Louis) think the mass of enlistments in the first three yrs of the war, on both sides, were people merely duped by the wealthy planters and factory owners? Chris
 
So, you (and Louis) think the mass of enlistments in the first three yrs of the war, on both sides, were people merely duped by the wealthy planters and factory owners? Chris

I can't speak for Al, but yes, I believe those people were duped by their leaders, just like the British, French and German people were duped by their leaders at the start of WWI. Leaders lie to the general public. They give provide false information, or withhold crucial information to sway and control the opinions of their populace. Read Macciavelli's "The Prince", or take a look at the portrayals of the opposition in WWI Propaganda posters, and you will see countless examples of this tactic.

Looking at the Civil War, how else do you explain the fact that the vast majority of the confederate soldiers, fighting to perpetuate a system based in large part on slavery providing cheap labor, were poor people who never owned slaves and thus were fighting against their economic interest?
 
So, you (and Louis) think the mass of enlistments in the first three yrs of the war, on both sides, were people merely duped by the wealthy planters and factory owners? Chris
Hi Chris. I believe that the majority of the enlistees probably had no clear idea of what they were going to war over, other than vague slogans about saving the Union, free the slaves, or repel the invaders. Certainly a large proportion, on both sides, enlisted with no more knowledge than that, trusting in what they were reading and being told by their newspapers or whatever, thus being duped by those agendas. I have no doubt that many enlisted with the best intentions and that they heartily agreed with the slogans and what-have-you but that most would have been broadly ignorant of the underlying economic reasons and interests. I also would not discount the large numbers that would have enlisted just for the adventure, for the change in their dull factory or farming lives. The slogans certainly would have provided them with a ready excuse for joining. Ignorance and being duped go hand in hand. -- Al
 
Louis,

It's the same reason people fought for the Union. They were fighting for what they thought was their country. McPherson has written a book about this as has Chandra Manning (What This Cruel War Was Over). As hard as it may seem people did fight for abstract principles. They also fought because that was what their friends, relatives and neighbors was doing. Robert Penn Warren recounted how his grandfather said that although he was against the war "you have to go with your people."
 
Very interesting, Louis, but not as cynical or unconventional as you might think. It is, remarkably, almost identical to my college ACW history professor's interpretation, a view that I find not unlikely. Nice job. -- Al

Al,

Since you're a Terp, would that have been Avery Craven. If so, you got to study with a legend.

Brad
 
Louis,

It's the same reason people fought for the Union. They were fighting for what they thought was their country. McPherson has written a book about this as has Chandra Manning (What This Cruel War Was Over). As hard as it may seem people did fight for abstract principles. They also fought because that was what their friends, relatives and neighbors was doing. Robert Penn Warren recounted how his grandfather said that although he was against the war "you have to go with your people."

The general public I think always believes they are fighting for their country when they go to war. Most people will not fight if they are not convinced they are fighting on the side of right or for a good cause. The question, for me, is how correct the information they are receiving from their government and/or the press, and what the motivation is behind those providing the information.

I live in a house that was the guest home of William Cullen Bryant's estate, Cedermere. Bryant was an abolishionist and the publisher of the biggest newspaper in New York City. I am fairly certain that the information his papers were disseminating painted the Confederate soldiers as amoral abusive slave owners, just as I'm sure the Confederate papers portrayed the Union soldiers as monsters. For me, the motivation behind the leaders who provide the information is far more illuminating.
 
Al,

Since you're a Terp, would that have been Avery Craven. If so, you got to study with a legend.

Brad
Brad, I am embarrased to say that I cannot recall the name of the ACW prof that I had. I can remember my 2 Russian Revolution/RCW profs, and my outstanding and very influential WW1 and WW2 prof, Gordon Prange, but for some reason I have forgotton the names of all my American history profs. I'm not sure what that says about me.:rolleyes2::redface2: -- Al
 

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