Battle for North Africa (1 Viewer)

Bradley,

I just wanted to comment on your assesment on Rommel...While it is true about Rommel getting caught up at the front & being involved in localized clashes i would say no better example than in his " Dash to the Wire " ; There are inumerable advantages in this behavior...Years back when visiting a friend of mine who is Italian , he had company one day his uncle from Argentina , just so happens his uncle was part of the italian army attached to Rommel in North Afrika...He gave me some of his personal insight to Rommel that day...It goes along these lines , The Italian soldiers did not very much like their own officers
& morale was low before Rommel arrived...The Italian soldiers could not believe their eyes to see a german general up at the front with his men...Being shot at & coming under artillery fire...Eating with his troops & Italian troops at the front...Italian generals would never be caught doing these things...It generated an admiration for Rommel that i could see animated this old soldier still some 45 years later...
In a day & age where everybody wants to run companies & be in charge from the privacy of a golf course & pent-house office , There is something to be said for that ! What you ask ?! His men gave him everything they had , they belived in him & loved him...That is the intangible of this !
In a desert enviornment which is harsh , Rommel exemplified guile & daring & his push forth mentality really made the desert war the story it is...
I do agree with you that his subordinates were great officers in their own rite & their professionalism & smarts were no doubt great assests to Rommel...
But to say Overrated...You may have your opinion , but i am sorry i do not agree...

Joe

Joe,
I totally agree. If anything it shows he was a brilliant leader. Maybe he was not great at strategic planning or even operational planning for formations above the division, but a great leader understands his strengths and role as well as those of the people around him. Picking great people (and the converse, removing those not performing which Rommel was known to do a great deal) and letting them do what they do best is one of the best traits a leader can have.
 
Joe,
I totally agree. If anything it shows he was a brilliant leader. Maybe he was not great at strategic planning or even operational planning for formations above the division, but a great leader understands his strengths and role as well as those of the people around him. Picking great people (and the converse, removing those not performing which Rommel was known to do a great deal) and letting them do what they do best is one of the best traits a leader can have.

I think you touch on an interesting and important point that seems to be more prevalent in this conflict than many others. This is the high quality of leadership throughout the military establishments of the major participants. In World War 2 the command debate is rarely directed at incompetence as it is when discussing the military leaders of the Great War or some of the 19th Century conflicts. Instead the discussion regarding success or failure is more focused on resources, weapons systems and tactical doctrine. The personality traits and skill level of the commanders usually retains less focus than these other factors.

As you point out, Rommel may not have been the greatest strategic or operational planner. But, he was without question a combat soldier and a great leader of men. IMO similar things can be said about many of the commanding figures of this conflict. Whether talking about Montgomery, Patton, Rommel, Guderian, or Zhukov the ability to get the most out of their men (even when conditions were tough) is the one consistent trait exemplified by each and every one of these officers.
 
Could it be that one focuses on the personalities more and, their perceived shortcomings in WWI rather than the WWII due to the technological advances in weapons and warfare?

Its easy, as has been done many times, to critique the WWI generals because they used tactics that in a modern world sitting comfortably in our homes seem absurd. However, its convenient to forget the times they were executed and, all the surrounding influences and pressures placed upon these men at that time.

I think, the weapons and tactical change in the second world war obfuscated many of the weaknesses etc that would have been highlighted in another time. Many commanders made poor decisions but, were fortunate for things like airpower naval bombardment and substantial reserves that actually won the day even, with a poor plan. This just was not the case in WWI so, many just focus on a single personality take him out of the whole scenario and, pull their actions apart. Simple to do but, addresses nothing of value to the actual issues.

I think also, many senior commanders had some failings but, as the chain goes down there were some exceptional commanders lower down that improvised on the orders they received sometimes a lot sometimes only a little but, were able to get the job done. They did so not because every plan was flawed or, the commanders were unfit but, due to the fluidity of battle and, their knowledge of the actual area it was fought. The main focus, the general's, be it Patton, Model, Monty or Rommel then collect the accolades and awards.

I think personality was important and WWII was the personality war media reporting was becoming hugely important not only to the armed forces but, to an ever increasing enquiring public. Monty, Rommel and Patton certainly instilled confidence in their men but, also to the publics back home. One also must remember that some of these men completely understood that they were fighting a ''total war'' and, their primary focus was destroying the enemy.
Mitch

I think you touch on an interesting and important point that seems to be more prevalent in this conflict than many others. This ,s the high quality of leadership throughout the military establishments of the major participants. In World War 2 the command debate is rarely directed at incompetence as it is when discussing the military leaders of the Great War or some of the 19th Century conflicts. Instead the discussion regarding success or failure is more focused on resources, weapons systems and tactical doctrine. The personality traits and skill level of the commanders usually retains less focus than these other factors.

As you point out, Rommel may not have been the greatest strategic or operational planner. But, he was without question a combat soldier and a great leader of men. IMO similar things can be said about many of the commanding figures of this conflict. Whether talking about Montgomery, Patton, Rommel, Guderian, or Zhukov the ability to get the most out of their men (even when conditions were tough) is the one consistent trait exemplified by each and every one of these officers.
 
Could it be that one focuses on the personalities more and, their perceived shortcomings in WWI rather than the WWII due to the technological advances in weapons and warfare?

Its easy, as has been done many times, to critique the WWI generals because they used tactics that in a modern world sitting comfortably in our homes seem absurd. However, its convenient to forget the times they were executed and, all the surrounding influences and pressures placed upon these men at that time.

I think, the weapons and tactical change in the second world war obfuscated many of the weaknesses etc that would have been highlighted in another time. Many commanders made poor decisions but, were fortunate for things like airpower naval bombardment and substantial reserves that actually won the day even, with a poor plan. This just was not the case in WWI so, many just focus on a single personality take him out of the whole scenario and, pull their actions apart. Simple to do but, addresses nothing of value to the actual issues.

I think also, many senior commanders had some failings but, as the chain goes down there were some exceptional commanders lower down that improvised on the orders they received sometimes a lot sometimes only a little but, were able to get the job done. They did so not because every plan was flawed or, the commanders were unfit but, due to the fluidity of battle and, their knowledge of the actual area it was fought. The main focus, the general's, be it Patton, Model, Monty or Rommel then collect the accolades and awards.

I think personality was important and WWII was the personality war media reporting was becoming hugely important not only to the armed forces but, to an ever increasing enquiring public. Monty, Rommel and Patton certainly instilled confidence in their men but, also to the publics back home. One also must remember that some of these men completely understood that they were fighting a ''total war'' and, their primary focus was destroying the enemy.
Mitch

Mitch

It seems that Pershing’s abilities and decisions get ridiculed far less than his British and French counterparts. So I don’t particularly agree with this assessment.

Also, the American military establishment has always maintained the concept and tradition of “total war” fresh within its consciousness since the end of the Civil War. I would argue that since the Napoleonic Wars the French and British military establishments have found it impossible to successfully wage “total war” without some form of outside assistance. And now that I’m typing this the Napoleonic Wars did eventually end in the defeat of the French Empire. So, perhaps the French and British have never successfully waged “total war” without outside (i.e. American or German/Prussian, Austrian, Russian, Italian, etc...) Assistance.

Shane
 
Mitch

It seems that Pershing’s abilities and decisions get ridiculed far less than his British and French counterparts. So I don’t particularly agree with this assessment.

Also, the American military establishment has always maintained the concept and tradition of “total war” fresh within its consciousness since the end of the Civil War. I would argue that since the Napoleonic Wars the French and British military establishments have found it impossible to successfully wage “total war” without some form of outside assistance. And now that I’m typing this the Napoleonic Wars did eventually end in the defeat of the French Empire. So, perhaps the French and British have never successfully waged “total war” without outside (i.e. American or German/Prussian, Austrian, Russian, Italian, etc...) Assistance.

Shane

Shane ,

You suggest Britain has never fought a " Total War " , i found the definition of it...Total war is a war in which a belligerent engages in the complete mobilization of fully available resources and population.
During the outbreak of WW2 British men were conscripted , women were conscripted as Land Girls to aid farmers , & boys were conscripted to work in the coal mines , while children were evacuated to the countryside ( think i saw that in The Lion , The Witch & The Wardrobe )
the British Government began rationing goods & services for both consumers & manufactors alike...Any manufactor which did not produce useful items for war were tasked to do so....Britain enacted legal blackouts of artificial light...All the resources & manpower of the british Empire were tasked to the war effort...
As Head of State Churchill use his office to attempt to enlist help from the USA , an act of reaching out & expanding your list of allies & places to acquire much need resources...Churchill spoke to the people to encourage , strengthen & unite them against a common enemy...
" We Shall Never Surrender "
If i was to call any professor into a room & give them this definition of total war = Total war is a war in which a belligerent engages in the complete mobilization of fully available resources and population.

Would they all not agree , that this is what Britain had done ?!

Joe
 
Shane ,

You suggest Britain has never fought a " Total War " , i found the definition of it...Total war is a war in which a belligerent engages in the complete mobilization of fully available resources and population.
During the outbreak of WW2 British men were conscripted , women were conscripted as Land Girls to aid farmers , & boys were conscripted to work in the coal mines , while children were evacuated to the countryside ( think i saw that in The Lion , The Witch & The Wardrobe )
the British Government began rationing goods & services for both consumers & manufactors alike...Any manufactor which did not produce useful items for war were tasked to do so....Britain enacted legal blackouts of artificial light...All the resources & manpower of the british Empire were tasked to the war effort...
As Head of State Churchill use his office to attempt to enlist help from the USA , an act of reaching out & expanding your list of allies & places to acquire much need resources...Churchill spoke to the people to encourage , strengthen & unite them against a common enemy...
" We Shall Never Surrender "
If i was to call any professor into a room & give them this definition of total war = Total war is a war in which a belligerent engages in the complete mobilization of fully available resources and population.

Would they all not agree , that this is what Britain had done ?!

Joe

Joe

Your argument is correct, but not entirely complete if attempting to counter my original point. In the post you’ve responded to I argue that neither Britain nor France have successfully waged total war without the assistance of another power.

I would never deny that the two powers have engaged in the total war concept. Not only was total war waged in the 20th century conflicts, but there were instances of total war being waged on the continent of Europe during the 19th century as well.

So again, you are correct. But, then so was my original post.

Shane

:)
 
Joe

Your argument is correct, but not entirely complete if attempting to counter my original point. In the post you’ve responded to I argue that neither Britain nor France have successfully waged total war without the assistance of another power.

I would never deny that the two powers have engaged in the total war concept. Not only was total war waged in the 20th century conflicts, but there were instances of total war being waged on the continent of Europe during the 19th century as well.

So again, you are correct. But, then so was my original post.

Shane

:)

Not to split hairs here, because my favorite aircraft of the war (P-51 Mustang) was very much a joint Anglo-American creation. But, one of the great material equalizers in the desert war came when shipments of American pattern AFV’s arrived for use in the British 8th Army. Following the introduction of the early production variants of the M4 Sherman, the British armoured divisions possessed a weapon’s system with equal firepower to the German armoured formations equipped with the PKW IV.
 
Mitch

It seems that Pershing’s abilities and decisions get ridiculed far less than his British and French counterparts. So I don’t particularly agree with this assessment.

Also, the American military establishment has always maintained the concept and tradition of “total war” fresh within its consciousness since the end of the Civil War. I would argue that since the Napoleonic Wars the French and British military establishments have found it impossible to successfully wage “total war” without some form of outside assistance. And now that I’m typing this the Napoleonic Wars did eventually end in the defeat of the French Empire. So, perhaps the French and British have never successfully waged “total war” without outside (i.e. American or German/Prussian, Austrian, Russian, Italian, etc...) Assistance.

Shane

Shane,
Based on your line of thought then neither have the Americans succesfully participated in a total war without
assistance.

You meantioned "the American military establishment has always maintained the concept and tradition of “total war” fresh within its consciousness since the end of the Civil War".

Some dates you might be aware of but anyway :

WWI started 28 JULY 1914 - US declares war on Germany on 6 APRIL 1917
(Australian Army heavy fighting in Gallipoli APRIL 1915 etc)

WWII started 1 SEPT 1939 - Pearl Harbour 7 DEC 1941 and USA entry into war.
(Australian Army 6th Division fighting in N Africa in December1940 etc).

I think you will agree WWI and WWII were total wars. It is easy to maintain the "concept and tradition" of total war if you do not actually join in until 2-3 years after they have started.

Now dont get me wrong I like all other "Allied" forum members appreciate the American contribution and sacrifice in WWI and WWII and what happens in the world today. However can you imagine the American outcry if the UK and Australia said to America when support was needed for Iraq and Afghanistan "No worries mate, we will be there in 2-3 years when the
time is right for us".

Regards
Brett








.
 
Total War, like all absolutes, is a myth anyway. America has not fought a total war in its entire history, but nor has anyone else. Perhaps the Russians came close, but it is an absolute that a western style democracy cannot even begin to approach.
 
Shane,
Based on your line of thought then neither have the Americans succesfully participated in a total war without
assistance.

You meantioned "the American military establishment has always maintained the concept and tradition of “total war” fresh within its consciousness since the end of the Civil War".

Some dates you might be aware of but anyway :

WWI started 28 JULY 1914 - US declares war on Germany on 6 APRIL 1917
(Australian Army heavy fighting in Gallipoli APRIL 1915 etc)

WWII started 1 SEPT 1939 - Pearl Harbour 7 DEC 1941 and USA entry into war.
(Australian Army 6th Division fighting in N Africa in December1940 etc).

I think you will agree WWI and WWII were total wars. It is easy to maintain the "concept and tradition" of total war if you do not actually join in until 2-3 years after they have started.

Now dont get me wrong I like all other "Allied" forum members appreciate the American contribution and sacrifice in WWI and WWII and what happens in the world today. However can you imagine the American outcry if the UK and Australia said to America when support was needed for Iraq and Afghanistan "No worries mate, we will be there in 2-3 years when the
time is right for us".

Regards
Brett


Brett

Never one to pull punches are you?

We did wage a total war without outside assistance against ourselves (1861-1865). You know lots of bloody battles, high casualties, destroyed cities, Sherman’s March, Sheridan’s Valley Campaign and all that fun stuff. Guess you have to live here, but I’m telling you it was pretty remorseless stuff. Especially towards the end. We still haven’t equaled the amount of American casualties in all of our other wars combined as were sustained during our little sibling rivalry. In my quote you referenced, I was refering to this conflict (ACW). Maybe that didn't come across as intended. Sorry about that.

Don’t take this the wrong way because I appreciate the Aussie’s and Brit’s and Canadian’s etc.. contributions to our debatably misguided adventures. But, honestly you guys probably could’ve sat it out or come in late on some of the more recent stuff and we would’ve been fine. For crying out loud we’re beating them with fancy kites.

Just don’t think that line of sitting it out until later is gonna fly when the ....... start stirring stuff up in your neck of the woods with their multitudes of cheap hardware and unlimited supply of manpower. I suppose the shoe would be on the other foot though in that scenario.

Hope nobody reports this post cause I alluded to some eventual possibilities that IMO should not be ignored.

Anyway to future battles, academic and otherwise. And I appreciate the post.

Cheers,

Shane

{sm4}
 
Total War, like all absolutes, is a myth anyway. America has not fought a total war in its entire history, but nor has anyone else. Perhaps the Russians came close, but it is an absolute that a western style democracy cannot even begin to approach.

Jack

Coming from the perspective of someone who lives in the only country to ever use Nuclear Weapons in an armed conflict, I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.

Total War is when the gloves come off, not like today’s scuffs where everything is micro-managed by commanders thousands of miles away viewing the battle space on a big screen TV. Total War is when a society exerts every ounce of its energy and political focus to defeat its opponent or stave off defeat. I agree that the level of severity of the Russian’s total war effort exceeds that of the Western allies (and you guys). But, it was still American made trucks, and boots that got the Red Army to the gates of Berlin. And two A-Bombs dropped from B-29’s that quelled the Japanese.

Shane
 
Jack

Coming from the perspective of someone who lives in the only country to ever use Nuclear Weapons in an armed conflict, I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.

Total War is when the gloves come off, not like today’s scuffs where everything is micro-managed by commanders thousands of miles away viewing the battle space on a big screen TV. Total War is when a society exerts every ounce of its energy and political focus to defeat its opponent or stave off defeat. I agree that the level of severity of the Russian’s total war effort exceeds that of the Western allies (and you guys). But, it was still American made trucks, and boots that got the Red Army to the gates of Berlin. And two A-Bombs dropped from B-29’s that quelled the Japanese.

Shane

We have a debate on definition looming rather than an historical discussion - 'every ounce of energy' does not, for example, account for the continued production of leisure items in the US during the war. Does this suggest that if the Germans introduced wonder weapons in 1944 and turned the tide of the war (a fantasy I admit) that the US had no more to give? I do not dispute the redirection of the industrial might of the US, just that it was not called upon to make such a total effort as one suggested by 'total war'. Even Germany continued to produce material that had no direct contribution to the war effort. Even when Australia had the Japanese on our doorstep in 1942 we did not conduct total war although to a soldier in PNG it may have appeared like it. I do not wish to introduce a Final Solution discussion, but what the Germans conducted there was indeed a crime against humanity and a war waged against civilians, but it came closer to total war than even the Red Army managed.

Nevertheless I am happy to acknowledge that when Australia won both World Wars, we did not do it alone!{sm4} Thanks everyone!
 
No idea what definition we are using but I am getting the impression a war is only a "total war" when the USA is in it.
 
Has there been a Battle or War (total or otherwise) that hasn't involved other countries in some form?


US Civil War: Britain supported the Southern states and had to pay reparations to the winning Union side.


Falklands War: The United States stripped their own aircraft to provide Britain with the latest Sidewinder missile (AIM-9L) increasing the kill ratio by about 70% over the earlier version.
 
We have a debate on definition looming rather than an historical discussion - 'every ounce of energy' does not, for example, account for the continued production of leisure items in the US during the war. Does this suggest that if the Germans introduced wonder weapons in 1944 and turned the tide of the war (a fantasy I admit) that the US had no more to give? I do not dispute the redirection of the industrial might of the US, just that it was not called upon to make such a total effort as one suggested by 'total war'. Even Germany continued to produce material that had no direct contribution to the war effort. Even when Australia had the Japanese on our doorstep in 1942 we did not conduct total war although to a soldier in PNG it may have appeared like it. I do not wish to introduce a Final Solution discussion, but what the Germans conducted there was indeed a crime against humanity and a war waged against civilians, but it came closer to total war than even the Red Army managed.

Nevertheless I am happy to acknowledge that when Australia won both World Wars, we did not do it alone!{sm4} Thanks everyone!

Jack

I think we’re getting caught up on semantics a little bit here, as you suggest. The effort on the home front in both Britain and the United States was in fact total. You referenced the production of “non-essential” items. In your mind do these non-essentials include Hersey chocolate bars and Lucky Strike cigarettes? If so these were very necessary to the war effort. Soldiers need stimulants to shake off long nights with little to no sleep in order to semi-function when ordered to take a bunker or machine gun nest. In the American Civil War two key components of the union army ration were coffee and sugar.

Not to mention that these items were tremendously helpful tools when attempting to engage European civilians in conversation about information regarding the German forces in the vicinity or trying to get a date with a pretty English girl while on leave.

After the war, these items (not to mention the massive infusions of US cash and credit into the national economies of war torn Europe) served as tokens of good will for the United States to gain popular support from many countries in Western Europe. Admittedly the Marshall Plan and subsequent subsidies were instituted in an effort to win friends against our former “Ally” the Soviet Union. But, I think most would agree that our methods of persuasion were better than the Soviet’s.

Just because the society isn’t immediately threatened by the prospect of attack does not mean that the concentration of collective effort is not geared towards accomplishing the intended national policy objective of subduing the foe. In the United States, civilians went on food stamps and were issued rationing cards for everyday essentials such as gasoline and rubber. The American civilian made innumerable sacrifices and gave up many freedoms to contribute to defeating Germany and the Japanese. Some of these freedoms were never returned as the US Federal Government instituted policies that would support the existence of an extensive military industrial complex that would be geared towards intimidating and if necessary combating the Soviet Union and its Satellites.

Questions for consideration:

Does maintaining civilian morale and support for the war effort constitute another necessary component of the overall military industrial complex that should be managed by the governing institutions of the society?

Modern military theory certainly encourages a high level of exertion in a total war setting to strike against civilian morale. All in an effort to undermine support for the enemy’s war effort.

Does keeping your civilians as comfortable as possible without sacrificing material resources available for combat forces help to maintain a high degree of public support for the war effort?

The United States certainly exerted a significant amount of effort to keep civilians as comfortable as possible both in our country and the countries we were occupying, oops visiting, errr garrisoning. Ah heck you get the point.

{sm4}
 
No idea what definition we are using but I am getting the impression a war is only a "total war" when the USA is in it.

Appreciate the compliment Brett. I was going to say the Napoleonic Wars, but now that you mention it we were involved in that one too.

Let's see, 7 Years War, nope we were in that too. (Albeit as colonies, but still fought on our land and all)

{sm4}

Shane
 
Has there been a Battle or War (total or otherwise) that hasn't involved other countries in some form?


US Civil War: Britain supported the Southern states and had to pay reparations to the winning Union side.


Falklands War: The United States stripped their own aircraft to provide Britain with the latest Sidewinder missile (AIM-9L) increasing the kill ratio by about 70% over the earlier version.

Who else was involved between France and Germany (1870-71)?
 
Has there been a Battle or War (total or otherwise) that hasn't involved other countries in some form?


US Civil War: Britain supported the Southern states and had to pay reparations to the winning Union side.


Falklands War: The United States stripped their own aircraft to provide Britain with the latest Sidewinder missile (AIM-9L) increasing the kill ratio by about 70% over the earlier version.

Ah, the Falklands. That one was a bit one sided wasn't it. Almost as bad as the First Gulf War. Got to hand it to that crazy redhead that yelled at all those grumpy old guys in Parliament though.

{bravo}} {bravo}} {bravo}}

Now those were the days...
 

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