Casting copies of K&C..etc (2 Viewers)

[OzDigger]

Matt,
Would have to disagree with your comments.
Not sure who your "several guys" might be but as a dealer who has sold to hundreds of TS collectors I am not aware of any that has bought a TS figure to re cast and then paint themselves. Having previously had the biggest selection of figure kits in Australia (6 years ago) I can only recall one of my figure modeller customers buying a toy soldier and they relate to a specific Regiment in which he served (ie 95th Rifles/Green Jackets). Those who might make such copies are in my mind more likely to be figure modellers or figure painters than TS collectors. To my knowledge I only have one current local collector, possibly two, who would have the painting skills to do that.
Simply not "widespread" as far as I am aware. However there may be several on this forum who engage in such activties but I have no idea. If there are such people they are a very small minority of the people involved in the TS hobby. Now as for DVD's and ripping movies off that is a different matter altogether.
Brett

Brett, I missed your response to my "widespread" remark and it seems I need to clarify what I believed was obvious. I was refering to the widespread practise of copying "whatever", which includes copying Figures, DVD's, Online download/rips etc etc. Clearly the copying of figures is a very small percentage of "whatever" and in fact the "several" guys I was refering to is about Five that I can recall, and that is in all of Australia. Nearly all are Brit expats or they had/have close ties to Britain which suggests to me that 'copying/casting your own Toy Soldier' is a very small hobby in Australia, but the ones that do seem rather keen on it. It's not something I can relate to but whatever floats your boat as they say.

I was of course kidding about you being an ex Police Officer as I believe few of your customers would be aware of that fact but they do know you are a dealer which I would suggest make any potential figure copying customers of yours somewhat reluctant to discuss with you what toy soldier they have recently copied.

 

[OzDigger]

I agree that it probably is impossible to control but when people make copies of an item, be it a DVD or a figure, they are infringing on that person's copyright (not trademark as I mentioned earlier) as that person or company has expended time, effort and money -- drawing, sculpting and manufacturing -- to create a DVD or a figure. It is not true that it has zero impact because that is one less sale that the manufacturer made. In the DVD industry that is a huge loss of income. That is a quantifiable loss and as Martin noted the toy soldier industry is not a big industry so that is real money.

Brad, I actually said almost Zero impact, and that was in terms of guys copying figures for their own use. The few guys that make copies of figures mostly do it to bulk out their collection where they need many multiples for Nap displays etc, others copy figures out of interest, they just get a buzz out of casting and painting etc. I don't agree with your assertion about every casting/copy being One less sale that the manufacturer made if they had no intention of buying more of that figure. In simple words, you haven't lost a sale if you weren't going to get it anyway.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Brett, I missed your response to my "widespread" remark and it seems I need to clarify what I believed was obvious. I was refering to the widespread practise of copying "whatever", which includes copying Figures, DVD's, Online download/rips etc etc. Clearly the copying of figures is a very small percentage of "whatever" and in fact the "several" guys I was refering to is about Five that I can recall, and that is in all of Australia. Nearly all are Brit expats or they had/have close ties to Britain which suggests to me that 'copying/casting your own Toy Soldier' is a very small hobby in Australia, but the ones that do seem rather keen on it. It's not something I can relate to but whatever floats your boat as they say.

I was of course kidding about you being an ex Police Officer as I believe few of your customers would be aware of that fact but they do know you are a dealer which I would suggest make any potential figure copying customers of yours somewhat reluctant to discuss with you what toy soldier they have recently copied.

Matt,
I agree with your comment about those who do this in Australia being Brit expats. I have had a few calls from such guys looking for figure casting equipment and mentioning figure brands or casting moulds I have never heard of. Have also had a few in the shop. Clearly something more popular in the UK and they are trying to continue their hobby once moved here. Had one such call last week. I dont think such items have ever been easily available in Australia as probably not enough demand. Those guys not really looking for TS's.

I do recall a visitor from TAS last year who said he was sculpting and making his own WWII Africa figures for a big dio. He showed me a couple and whilst not bad in a big dio situation they were not TS quality. He spent about $1,500 on K&C WWII Africa figures as his scale of figures was close to them. He seemed happy to find TS's as his project was going to be big and would put his in background behind the K&C figures.

Brett

 

[jazzeum]

Brad, I actually said almost Zero impact, and that was in terms of guys copying figures for their own use. The few guys that make copies of figures mostly do it to bulk out their collection where they need many multiples for Nap displays etc, others copy figures out of interest, they just get a buzz out of casting and painting etc. I don't agree with your assertion about every casting/copy being One less sale that the manufacturer made if they had no intention of buying more of that figure. In simple words, you haven't lost a sale if you weren't going to get it anyway.

You may disagree Matt but that's a way of measuring damages. People make copies so they don't have to pay. I don't think we can say with precision that they would or would not have purchased the figure. We do know, however, that if they make an illegal copy they have definitely denied that person a sale.

 

[wayne556517]

Won't it effect the cost of figures if everyone goes around copying them,like in the PC game market ??????????

 

[Martin Tabony]

Won't it effect the cost of figures if everyone goes around copying them,like in the PC game market ??????????

Yes, at least one U.K. games company packed in, primarily because of piracy!
Also I think it may have already affected the price of figures. When making anything, you add up the costs, decide how much profit you need to make to cover wages and product developement etc. You then work out how many you need to sell and set the price accordingly. If you sell less figures than you need to you either charge more the next time or don't bother making new figures. In the long run, honest collectors pay for the pirates!

Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

Brad, I actually said almost Zero impact, and that was in terms of guys copying figures for their own use. The few guys that make copies of figures mostly do it to bulk out their collection where they need many multiples for Nap displays etc, others copy figures out of interest, they just get a buzz out of casting and painting etc. I don't agree with your assertion about every casting/copy being One less sale that the manufacturer made if they had no intention of buying more of that figure. In simple words, you haven't lost a sale if you weren't going to get it anyway.

So if they were never going to buy the figures anyway why aren't the casting something like Prince August figure that are intended for the home market? I'm sure there are lots of people that "get a buzz" out of all kinds of immoral and illegal activity, that doesn't make it alright, although I realise that you think it's "no big deal"

Martin

 

[OzDigger]

You may disagree Matt but that's a way of measuring damages. People make copies so they don't have to pay. I don't think we can say with precision that they would or would not have purchased the figure. We do know, however, that if they make an illegal copy they have definitely denied that person a sale.

Brad, you may have a case for "definite denied sale" if the person that copied the figure(s) subsequently sold them to someone that perhaps could afford multiples. However would it be feasible to lodge a claim for monetary losses from a collector making copies for their own use especially if they could not afford to buy more than One of the original items?

 

[OzDigger]

So if they were never going to buy the figures anyway why aren't the casting something like Prince August figure that are intended for the home market? I'm sure there are lots of people that "get a buzz" out of all kinds of immoral and illegal activity, that doesn't make it alright, although I realise that you think it's "no big deal"

Martin

I'm sure I'm not the only person that has no idea what your refererence to a Prince August figure for your home market has to do with this discussion, could you explain what you mean ^&confuse

You seem rather upset about this matter, no doubt because you have a pecuniary interest. I would be interested to know what punishment you would consider to be appropriate for those that copy toy soldiers for their own use?

 

[jager7080]

I'm sure I'm not the only person that has no idea what your refererence to a Prince August figure for your home market has to do with this discussion, could you explain what you mean ^&confuse

You seem rather upset about this matter, no doubt because you have a pecuniary interest. I would be interested to know what punishment you would consider to be appropriate for those that copy toy soldiers for their own use?

Matt ,

I am glad i am not the only one who didn't know...so i had to google it ,Prince August is a hobby casting company...You can buy moulds to make your own toy soldiers...

Joe

 

[Poppo]

Bank robbery has been going on longer! Should the banks be happy about it?

Martin

well, nowadays it is the people who are not happy to be stolen by the banks....^&grin

 

[OzDigger]

Matt ,

I am glad i am not the only one who didn't know...so i had to google it ,Prince August is a hobby casting company...You can buy moulds to make your own toy soldiers...

Joe

Thanks Joe, I thought it was an individual figure. Maybe some people enjoy copying their favorites rather than the 54mm generic figure molds available from that company.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Brad, you may have a case for "definite denied sale" if the person that copied the figure(s) subsequently sold them to someone that perhaps could afford multiples. However would it be feasible to lodge a claim for monetary losses from a collector making copies for their own use especially if they could not afford to buy more than One of the original items?

Very feasible, that's why there are penalties layed down in law for breach of copywright. Not being able to afford an item is no excuse, if it were then it would be used by every shop lifter around the world! Most of us don't have what we can't afford, we don't steal it!

Martin

 

[OzDigger]

Very feasible, that's why there are penalties layed down in law for breach of copywright. Not being able to afford an item is no excuse, if it were then it would be used by every shop lifter around the world! Most of us don't have what we can't afford, we don't steal it!

Martin

There are certainly laws covering copyright, but I doubt very much if was feasible for you to take copyright action against someone that copied a figure you made, especially if they copied it for their own collection and not resale.

 

[Peter Reuss]

There are certainly laws covering copyright, but I doubt very much if was feasible for you to take copyright action against someone that copied a figure you made, especially if they copied it for their own collection and not resale.

Illegal is illegal. Whether someone has the ability to prosecute doesn't change that fact.

 

[OzDigger]

Illegal is illegal. Whether someone has the ability to prosecute doesn't change that fact.

No one is arguing that fact, but the practice will no doubt continue same as copying movies and reselling them. It's not something I condone and I have never purchased copied DVDs or Figures not even King & Country's early "homage" to the Airfix Afrika Korps figures but no doubt some people do.

 

[Al Fisher]

I've heard that rubbish about changing a percentage before! That means that the other percentage is copied! Have you ever tried contacting the manufacturer and asking if it is possible to buy the part of the figure you aren't changing? There are companies that are happy to sell "spare parts".

Martin

As a matter of fact, I have. I contacted William Britains several years ago and they had no problem with my copying figures for my own collection. I have the letters somewhere; they were also published in one of the toy soldier magazines as well as I wanted to share both viewpoints.

Bosun Al

 

[Martin Tabony]

No one is arguing that fact, but the practice will no doubt continue same as copying movies and reselling them. It's not something I condone and I have never purchased copied DVDs or Figures not even King & Country's early "homage" to the Airfix Afrika Korps figures but no doubt some people do.

Your posts at the begininhg of this thread certainly gave the impression that you condoned the practice!

Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

I've heard that rubbish about changing a percentage before! That means that the other percentage is copied! Have you ever tried contacting the manufacturer and asking if it is possible to buy the part of the figure you aren't changing? There are companies that are happy to sell "spare parts".

Martin

As a matter of fact, I have. I contacted William Britains several years ago and they had no problem with my copying figures for my own collection. I have the letters somewhere; they were also published in one of the toy soldier magazines as well as I wanted to share both viewpoints.

Bosun Al

I don't think you're sharing a different view point, you did the correct thing, you contacted the owner.
I have a bunch of figures I haven't made for a while, that doesn't mean that they are "retired" and anyone can help themselves. It means they are my property and I decide when they are made. In the same way that the current owners of the William Britains name can decide when their figures are made.
Just because there are people in this hobby who have "gotton away with it" for years, doesn't make it right. And I include some makers in that. We all recognise Airfix multipose parts and I've lost count of how many historex horses have been cast in metal. I'm happy to say I can show all of my master sculpts, as can a lot of other makers (and regularly do on here!) Only recently I had to persue a "trader" on e.bay that was trying to sell some of my work.
Just because this is a hobby to most, don't forget it is way to make a living for some. I wonder how much noise these recasters would make if someone cut their wages?

Martin

 

[Mitch]

I keep hearing the AK homage or copy or however else its stated that K&C did from the airfix products. Others have used these as a template for their own inspiration or, development even TG has acknowledged their influence. They were pioneers in the military hobby with their plastic 1/32nd scale figures.

Thats completely different to what is being discussed here from what I have read. They did not make a cast and copy it outright denying the company sales. I have these figures and all of the airfix and they are not exact copies. I think Andy mentioned many moons ago that he took the inspiration for drawing and designing the figures he made from things around at the time.

I don't have a pecuniary advantage in this interesting topic at all but, I can still see its clearly wrong however one dresses it up. Never saw in any of my law books the defence of sort of wrong or, kind of acceptable as we know it goes on.

I also don't by dodgy DVD's or games not because I enjoy paying higher prices simply because we all (though some ignore) know its not just wrong but, illegal.

The watering down of culpability is interesting in that as usual because there is nobody really policing this area and the liklihood of being caught is low people think its acceptable to do. Wrong!!
Mitch