Casting copies of K&C..etc (1 Viewer)

[OzDigger]

Oz..excellent comparison with the DVD's and Vidoe's.....these thing go on all the time I guess..no matter what the gizmo....there are two views to every arguement and everybody has a right to thier view...and what I have seen on this site....Hey ! Hey!...where are the silent majority ??? ... people here aint backward in coming forward to express their view.....you sure stirred the possum with your Tank/scale subject...good stuff.....TomB

Tom, there are presently 2,629 Treefrog members but only a few dozen members post on a regular basis, most people don't bother to post unless it is a subject that they care about, hence the silent majority. Btw I actually started that Tank/Scale thread because of your enquiry, so it's all your fault :wink2: ^&grin

 

[OzDigger]

Do you think they would care when the company they are ripping off decides it's not worth making new figures? You do realise that none of the toy soldier companies are multi million dollar internationls. Most work hand to mouth!
I can only be held responsible for my own honesty not someone elses!!

I am talking about collectors making copies for their own collection, most often they do this because they can't afford to buy multiple copies of the genuine article consequently there is almost zero impact on the manufacturer. I'm not saying I condone people making copies of whatever, I'm just saying it is a widespread practise that is almost impossible to control.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Tom, you are not a loner mate, it's the usual silent majority on this forum that don't give a rats what people do with their figures and don't bother to enter into forum discussions like this. For example I know of several guys that make copies of the well known brands for their own use, no big deal, same as the countless people that copy DVD's and rip movies etc off the net, who cares, not many that's for sure.

Matt,
Would have to disagree with your comments.
Not sure who your "several guys" might be but as a dealer who has sold to hundreds of TS collectors I am not aware of any that has bought a TS figure to re cast and then paint themselves. Having previously had the biggest selection of figure kits in Australia (6 years ago) I can only recall one of my figure modeller customers buying a toy soldier and they relate to a specific Regiment in which he served (ie 95th Rifles/Green Jackets). Those who might make such copies are in my mind more likely to be figure modellers or figure painters than TS collectors. To my knowledge I only have one current local collector, possibly two, who would have the painting skills to do that.
Simply not "widespread" as far as I am aware. However there may be several on this forum who engage in such activties but I have no idea. If there are such people they are a very small minority of the people involved in the TS hobby. Now as for DVD's and ripping movies off that is a different matter altogether.
Brett

 

[OzDigger]

Matt,
Not sure who your "several guys" might be but as a dealer who has sold to hundreds of TS collectors I am not aware of any that has bought a TS figure to re cast and then paint themselves. Having previously had the biggest selection of figure kits in Australia (6 years ago) I can only recall one of my figure modeller customers buying a toy soldier and they relate to a specific Regiment in which he served (ie 95th Rifles/Green Jackets). Those who might make such copies are in my mind more likely to be figure modellers or figure painters than TS collectors. To my knowledge I only have one collector who would have the painting skills to do that.
Simply not prevalent as far as I am aware. However there may be several on this forum who engage in such activties but I have no idea. If there are such people they are a very small minority of the people involved in the TS hobby. Now as for DVD's and ripping movies off that is a different matter altogether.
Brett

LOL Brett, you are a TS Dealer and an ex Police Officer so I doubt they would be silly enough to tell you if they did.

 

[jazzeum]

I am talking about collectors making copies for their own collection, most often they do this because they can't afford to buy multiple copies of the genuine article consequently there is almost zero impact on the manufacturer. I'm not saying I condone people making copies of whatever, I'm just saying it is a widespread practise that is almost impossible to control.

I agree that it probably is impossible to control but when people make copies of an item, be it a DVD or a figure, they are infringing on that person's copyright (not trademark as I mentioned earlier) as that person or company has expended time, effort and money -- drawing, sculpting and manufacturing -- to create a DVD or a figure. It is not true that it has zero impact because that is one less sale that the manufacturer made. In the DVD industry that is a huge loss of income. That is a quantifiable loss and as Martin noted the toy soldier industry is not a big industry so that is real money.

 

[theBaron]

This topic comes up from time to time, and Brad (jazzeum) has expressed it best--it's copyright infringement.

And as others have noted, there are probably many collectors, who know how to make molds and cast, who do make copies, some who keep them for themselves, some who trade them and the worst, those who sell them.

Whether the copyright holder chooses to pursue and prosecute, is always the question. There is an eBay seller who sells solid copies of classic Britains hollowcasts, and copies of Imrie-Risley figures, among others. I sent a link to one of his auctions to Mrs. Imrie, to alert her, but her decision was not to pursue it. That's the decision that a manufacturer has to make--is it worth the resources to go after someone.

Prost!
Brad

 

[TomB]

Tom, there are presently 2,629 Treefrog members but only a few dozen members post on a regular basis, most people don't bother to post unless it is a subject that they care about, hence the silent majority. Btw I actually started that Tank/Scale thread because of your enquiry, so it's all your fault :wink2: ^&grin

Tar...Mate....Tom

 

[The Military Workshop]

LOL Brett, you are a TS Dealer and an ex Police Officer so I doubt they would be silly enough to tell you if they did.

Matt,
I doubt me being an overseas Police Officer 15 years ago is going to worry any of my customers in relation to such activities.

I think I know my collectors fairly well and I have a good idea as to who can paint a figure. Those that can paint usually mention it when they come into the shop as it is a frequent subject raised when looking around. Most figure painters who come to my shop are looking to buy figures they can paint not ones painted by somebody else. Figure modellers very rarely buy TS as for them the hobby is the making and painting. Totally a different hobby. Even in the modelling world figure modellers are a very small minority (ie. no more than 5%). My experience is that few figure modellers even get to the point of casting their own figures.

So we will have to disagree on this one as a non issue as far as I am aware.

Regards
Brett

 

[TomB]

Perhaps a bad example at the present time! Perhaps I should have said house breaking, as anyone that pirates my stuff steals my profit, so steals the food from my childrens mouths!!!

Martin

well put....TomB

 

[ostrein]

Very intersting thread. Thanks for bringing this up and having a discussion in a professional manner.

I would like to extend the question of making copies/recasts by the matter of making copies of retired items / items which are no longer available and have been sold out?

Thanks
Oliver

 

[TomB]

Very intersting thread. Thanks for bringing this up and having a discussion in a professional manner.

I would like to extend the question of making copies/recasts by the matter of making copies of retired items / items which are no longer available and have been sold out?

Thanks
Oliver

Cricky Mate....that subject would really stir the possum.....in English..that is a very interesting subject and would start a lively debate....I suggest you start your own thread on this subject.....regards TomB

 

[Mitch]

Oliver...

Although I can see where you are coming with in relation to this aspect of the figures I would have to say that it would still be against the copyright laws and other legislation that makes such acts illegal. I think few of the firms like Martins ever discontinue figures (I may be wrong) so, its accute and more problematic for them. If you wanted to make a figure which was discontinued in this way it would also require one to have access to the figure. If you have that access why not buy it? If you are borrowing the figure and casting one then I would think it would fall under the rules we mentioned at the start.

I have to agree with Brett that there must be very very few people who are able enough to paint to the standard required and cast to the standards to make this worthwhile. I have been in this hobby many years and in the modelling world since a child and know of very few people who do this. I know people who cast and paint those who run small businesses doing it from their own figures but, none that do it for their own collections.

I also think its a non starter in terms of K&C as you would be hard pressed to replicate the painting even if the mold was satisfactory for either your own collection or, to even try to sell on to collectors.

Really is no such thing as a victimless crime. a crime is a crime. There are some like this that seem willing to be justified.
Mitch

Very intersting thread. Thanks for bringing this up and having a discussion in a professional manner.

I would like to extend the question of making copies/recasts by the matter of making copies of retired items / items which are no longer available and have been sold out?

Thanks
Oliver

 

[Al Fisher]

This is an extremely touchy situation. Have I ever copied a figure . . . yes. Have I ever sold a figure I copied . . . no. Have I ever copied a figure without first modifying it . . . no. If one isn't a competent sculptor and wants a particular figure that's not manufactured, this is the only way to get it without paying a lot for a one-of from the manufacturer. An informal rule that has been in use as long as I can remember is that a figure should be changed by 20 percent to constitute a new design. Still not strictly legal, but seems to be accepted. That said, it's costly for a manufacturer to pursue a copyright case, so few do and then only in cases involving large numbers. However, willfully copying a figure and selling it as an original is just not acceptable and immoral. But we must admit that there are many people in our society to don't give a rat's *** about ethics. So what can we do about it? IMHO, about all we can do is use sites such as this to spread the word about those who do this and keep the practice of illegal sales to a minimum.

'Nough said . . .

Bosun Al

 

[Martin Tabony]

This is an extremely touchy situation. Have I ever copied a figure . . . yes. Have I ever sold a figure I copied . . . no. Have I ever copied a figure without first modifying it . . . no. If one isn't a competent sculptor and wants a particular figure that's not manufactured, this is the only way to get it without paying a lot for a one-of from the manufacturer. An informal rule that has been in use as long as I can remember is that a figure should be changed by 20 percent to constitute a new design. Still not strictly legal, but seems to be accepted. That said, it's costly for a manufacturer to pursue a copyright case, so few do and then only in cases involving large numbers. However, willfully copying a figure and selling it as an original is just not acceptable and immoral. But we must admit that there are many people in our society to don't give a rat's *** about ethics. So what can we do about it? IMHO, about all we can do is use sites such as this to spread the word about those who do this and keep the practice of illegal sales to a minimum.

'Nough said . . .

Bosun Al

I've heard that rubbish about changing a percentage before! That means that the other percentage is copied! Have you ever tried contacting the manufacturer and asking if it is possible to buy the part of the figure you aren't changing? There are companies that are happy to sell "spare parts".

Martin

Martin

 

[Arnhemjim]

Very intersting thread. Thanks for bringing this up and having a discussion in a professional manner.

I would like to extend the question of making copies/recasts by the matter of making copies of retired items / items which are no longer available and have been sold out?

Thanks
Oliver

A very interesting thread indeed. The analogy immediately comes to mind of the nefarious, but unfortunately thriving, market of restrikes in regimental cap badges and campaign medals which is becoming even more easily accomplished with modern technology, i.e. 3D printers. Among other aspects already discussed it cheapens the investment of all other collectors who came by their collections with honest hard earned cash. Just my humble opinion.
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

 

[jazzeum]

I'm actually surprised we're having this extensive a discussion on what should be from my legal perspective a clear cut issue.

 

[TomB]

A very interesting thread indeed. The analogy immediately comes to mind of the nefarious, but unfortunately thriving, market of restrikes in regimental cap badges and campaign medals which is becoming even more easily accomplished with modern technology, i.e. 3D printers. Among other aspects already discussed it cheapens the investment of all other collectors who came by their collections with honest hard earned cash. Just my humble opinion.
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

... Unhappily....military Regt Badges..Para Wings...Campaign Medal's etc are now avail to the drover and his dog..I have seen part of your collection on WETS....( really hit by Craig's passing)......You have a terrific Airborne collection.... that .would not have been easy to collect.....one thing you have in your favour.( I hope)...the odd reproduction badge's I have seen are not the same quality as the originals ...I hope the same applies to the cloth badges.....TomB

 

[jager7080]

I'm actually surprised we're having this extensive a discussion on what should be from my legal perspective a clear cut issue.

I for one have actually enjoyed this thread & read each & every post...In full disclosure i neither sculpt nor cast , but do enjoy intelligent conversation of a nefarious subject matter at times...I am glad Tom brought up this subject it was very interesting...

Joe

 

[Arnhemjim]

... Unhappily....military Regt Badges..Para Wings...Campaign Medal's etc are now avail to the drover and his dog..I have seen part of your collection on WETS....( really hit by Craig's passing)......You have a terrific Airborne collection.... that .would not have been easy to collect.....one thing you have in your favour.( I hope)...the odd reproduction badge's I have seen are not the same quality as the originals ...I hope the same applies to the cloth badges.....TomB

Hello Tom,
Thank you very much for the kind words. Consider myself extremely fortunate to have acquired the majority of the collection from the late 1950's through the mid 80's. There was a flurry of reproductions of British and Commonwealth Special Forces insignia in the early 80's. At that point recognized that the combination of rarity/price on elite forces insignia limited (in most cases precluded) my acquisition. At that point had already (like most of us) been burned several times, fortunately not seriously. As a result some of the insignia I have are excellent reproductions, but none the less reproductions. Conversely having visited places like Laurence Corners in London in the mid-50's, and having made friends with Bob Bragg, Roy Turner and Mike Shepherd, was able to obtain some unique righteous items. I have carefully maintained an Excel Database on the collection, in order that my family and other collectors can discern the wheat from the chaff. You might want to glance at a new page (as well as possibly others) on my blog devoted to figures of Scottish Regiments of the British Army circa 1914 by Greenwood & Ball. They can be found at http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com. Suffices to say, have primarily dedicated my blog page to sharing both my own and other collector's untoward experiences, in order to make the "shark infested waters" safer for other collectors.
All the best,
Arnhem Jim

 

[TomB]

Hello Tom,
Thank you very much for the kind words. Consider myself extremely fortunate to have acquired the majority of the collection from the late 1950's through the mid 80's. There was a flurry of reproductions of British and Commonwealth Special Forces insignia in the early 80's. At that point recognized that the combination of rarity/price on elite forces insignia limited (in most cases precluded) my acquisition. At that point had already (like most of us) been burned several times, fortunately not seriously. As a result some of the insignia I have are excellent reproductions, but none the less reproductions. Conversely having visited places like Laurence Corners in London in the mid-50's, and having made friends with Bob Bragg, Roy Turner and Mike Shepherd, was able to obtain some unique items. I have carefully maintained an Excel Database on the collection, in order that my family and other collectors can discern the wheat from the chaff. You might want to glance at a new page (as well as possibly others) on my blog devoted to figures of Scottish Regiments of the British Army circa 1914 by Greenwood & Ball. They can be found at http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com.
All the best,
Arnhem Jim

Thank you very much....now that Wets is gone...I have lost your Webb address and was not able to review it.....I hope some of the collectors on this thread see your site address and visit your site...they would certainly find it of interest and could match some of the Regt Badges with their TS....warmest regards Tom