Concentration camp (2 Viewers)

[Jack]

While I do not support the production of figures relating to the Holocaust, just assume for one minute that a company took the project on.

I think the question then would be a more subtle one. Would it be appropriate to produce such a line if it wasn't disgusting? We have people who argue that flags are too large, historically inaccurate or different in some way than history indicates they looked. Could we support the depiction of the attempted destruction of a people - one million children included - unless we were appalled, disgusted and upset by it? We have Santa being escorted by WW1 Germans and that's fine - but if we produce Holocaust figures, we have a responsibility to those who died, and those we could not, did not, or declined to save - to ensure that they sure as hell are stomach turning or else we pepetuate a myth.

 

[larso]

Jack - I agree!

My thoughts are firstly, produce what you would find interesting for yourself. As for wider acceptance, I think it would depend on a few things. A group of joyous inmates welcoming a Sherman would look great to me, providing they weren't too emaciated and there weren't cadavers lying around. This is how it was of course but it would complicate public reception. I also wouldn't have a problem with a dio of the 45th Division shooting SS camp guards but I suspect that wouldn't go down too well either with some.

 

[Napoleon1er]

My two cents: I believe that the Holocaust and it's memory is far too overpowering to depict in terms of TS. The continued exsistence of the haunted concentration camps as a symbol and a reminder are the most powerful memorial that could ever be created. It is just my opinion, but any attempt to recreate these camps, in whatever form, cannot due justice to the suffering and torture that was endured inside these camps. It seems to me that it can only cheapen the memory of this most horrible of events. I don't mean that anyone shouldn't do what they want, only that this subject transcends this particular hobby. -- Al

Thanks for saying this: I think the exact same thing. We collect figures that depict wars, where two+ groups fight each other. Civilian genocide is a different story. Why do we really want to do this? Any depiction of these events should be a work not meant for sale, simply to recount the men, women, and children who died and who lived. Same reason no one is purposing making a diorama of the Spanish atrocities during the Napoleonic wars. No one would collect that. What is the difference?
-Sandor

 

[Firebat]

We started the journey to the camps with this pic from TGC Episode I......There was more in Episode III...and there will be more in upcoming episodes.... All positive response on our website so far .....Jewish groups even contacted us for more info. It happened and it needs to be remembered is the response we mostly got.

 

[tdubel]

Here are my 2 cents, slightly different perspective. Disclaimer, our family is Jewish (My wife is full blooded).

Here is how I depict LAH. THere is something awe inspiring regarding the uniforms, cars, rallies, etc. Regardless of what the regime stood for, when you see the photos/films, you watch. That said, of course, I cannot stand what the regime stood for.

SO, here is how I have it in my collection, slightly historically inaccurate, but it works for me:

Nuremberg - I show the stand, eagles, etc. and all the bad guys including Cars, Horses, but plan on having a spitfire or hurricane descending upon the rally.

Berghoff - Same thing, show Hitler and Blondie and some other baddies, but show a nice allied plane and tank coming in.

So, it is my way of being able to display high quality figures in a better light for my household.

The point here is, that I think you can display anything in proper context and taste.

TD

 

[fmethorst]

It happened, but making a display of it is in bad taste and will be offensive to many people. About the only way to do it is if you are a Jewish holocaust group showing the horror of the camps with emaciated bodies in an historical remembrance context. Just using normal refugee figures would make it seem like the Hogan's Heroes of concentration camps. And what do concentration camps have to do with collecting toy soldiers? Do airplane modellers do dios of crashed passenger planes with body parts strewn about the site? Or model railroaders doing bloody train wrecks?

Everyone is trying to be liberal and politically correct in their comments on this topic. But if a manufacturer came out with figures for such a dio, I would find it difficult to buy anything from that company or even associate with people on a forum who would make such dios.

Why not a diorama of the hangings after the Nuremberg trials? Or the genocide in Armenia, Africa or Bosnia?

Terry

I'm with Terry on this one. I think it's in poor taste for a home display.

 

[arikko]

I personaly find it very disturbing

 

[Rob]

We started the journey to the camps with this pic from TGC Episode I......There was more in Episode III...and there will be more in upcoming episodes.... All positive response on our website so far .....Jewish groups even contacted us for more info. It happened and it needs to be remembered is the response we mostly got.

But thats not a concentration camp?????^&confuse

Rob

 

[Blowtorch]

Outstanding pic Firebat. Great message in there...and repeated so many times since WW2.

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Interesting if this is the case that LAH or, Berlin range (I differentiate the two) equals Holocaust in some minds and, then this allows them to make some of the connections and comments they do. Contrast the same men fighting for the same regime and ideals in grey or camo in Tiger tanks panzer IV and all the other fav sets everyone clammers for. Its the same regime the same ideal and, as yet, none has been able to come up with anything that negates this and, how its acceptable to have one and not for the other. If one makes this connection and, has the strong ideals and issues over what a range stands for I am completly lost for understanding how they can negate the former but not the latter.

I have heard, the I have them fighting the allies but, unless its in their mind I don't see row upon row of german AFV's as doing anything other than perpetuating the regime. People shake their heads and pontificate about the popularity of german stuff and the berlin range but, on the other hand are easy with maintaining the status quo by grabbing every german release regardless of SS unit.

Mitch

Mitch, yes I agree. I guess that perhaps thats where your post about the regime comes in, perhaps folk consider the ideals/ethos behind the LAH manifested in the Holocaust (I'm only guessing here and don't know either way). But the main point here is what is one man's meat is another man's poison , it sure would be a boring hobby if everyone agreed about everything all the time. Also I never worry about what other people think of my collecting or my love of military history (one relative asked me years ago ' isn't it all very depressing reading and collecting that stuff all the time'?). I think the subject of military history and all that goes with it is one of those life long subjects that never leaves you, it got in my blood as a small boy and has never left.

There is a company here on the forum (but its almost midnight and the name escapes me) who make excellent looking huts for anyone considering a prison camp type scene, I was going to make a prison camp scene with lots of Luftwaffe figures in it, but Wayne would send his forthcoming fleet of Stukas over to demolish it! ^&grin:wink2:

Rob

 

[Rob]

Mitch,

Yep, I see your point here. Actually I wasn't suggesting there is a link in fact Panzerace has proved it there isn't, he collects LAH big time but wouldn't buy Holocaust figures. I guess all collectors look at what and why they collect what they do, and each has their own reasoning behind it. In the end there is no right and wrong I guess, just opinions.

Rob

Rob...

Interesting if this is the case that LAH or, Berlin range (I differentiate the two) equals Holocaust in some minds and, then this allows them to make some of the connections and comments they do. Contrast the same men fighting for the same regime and ideals in grey or camo in Tiger tanks panzer IV and all the other fav sets everyone clammers for. Its the same regime the same ideal and, as yet, none has been able to come up with anything that negates this and, how its acceptable to have one and not for the other. If one makes this connection and, has the strong ideals and issues over what a range stands for I am completly lost for understanding how they can negate the former but not the latter.

I have heard, the I have them fighting the allies but, unless its in their mind I don't see row upon row of german AFV's as doing anything other than perpetuating the regime. People shake their heads and pontificate about the popularity of german stuff and the berlin range but, on the other hand are easy with maintaining the status quo by grabbing every german release regardless of SS unit.

Mitch

 

[Mitch]

Rob..

Do you think seriously anyone would admit on here they would buy them even if they did??? That proves nothing to me and, there are few who collect LAH troops more than I do. We have moved so far away from what Neils originally asked.

I think in an expression of what actually happened there worlds apart. the front entrance of a camp being liberated by allies and, depicting a camp with dead bodies etc that we have all seen in the docs. I think, for me, the liberation setting is acceptable in a historical setting and ok in the hobby. I don't think Neils was asking for figures made just gauging what the reaction would be. Looking at other places where these have been made and shown I don't see a huge outcry.

I think it offends peoples sensibilities obviously as I said in my first reply to Neils but, thats not a reason that things should not be done. we play in a real life setting looking at a grissly issue of war and, thats what happened. It may not be something everyone would want in their homes but, even if Neils does this it probably won't be in his living room
Mitch


As I said its not aimed at you but, interesting topics like this get closer to the heart of the discussion about the differentiation there is for some regarding the SS
Mitch

Mitch,

Yep, I see your point here. Actually I wasn't suggesting there is a link in fact Panzerace has proved it there isn't, he collects LAH big time but wouldn't buy Holocaust figures. I guess all collectors look at what and why they collect what they do, and each has their own reasoning behind it. In the end there is no right and wrong I guess, just opinions.

Rob

 

[Rob]

Mitch,

Probably not no !. At the very least it does seem of late we can talk about these topics in a more calm manner, the forum is not growing up is it Mitch??!{eek3}^&grin:wink2:

Rob

Rob..

Do you think seriously anyone would admit on here they would buy them even if they did??? That proves nothing to me and, there are few who collect LAH troops more than I do. We have moved so far away from what Neils originally asked.

As I said its not aimed at you but, interesting topics like this get closer to the heart of the discussion about the differentiation there is for some regarding the SS
Mitch

 

[Mitch]

Looking elsewhere this morning it would, sadly seem not to be the case. This was an interesting discussion though
Mitch

Mitch,

Probably not no !. At the very least it does seem of late we can talk about these topics in a more calm manner, the forum is not growing up is it Mitch??!{eek3}^&grin:wink2:

Rob

 

[uksubs]

Interesting question Neil. I'd have to say if we think of the images we all know of the camps, the emaciated prisoners, the heaps of skeletal fly covered bodies, the people near death at the fences begging for food.....I'd say yes, thats probably quite a bit more upsetting for relatives or survivors than LAH marching and parading.But actually when you describe such figures you do actually think ' Who earth is going to make them '???? I can see the appeal of the LAH figures because they are of the traditional marching soldier type beloved by generations, but I wonder how many LAH collectors would really buy dead or dying concentration camp figures??? Just my tuppence.

Rob

Well I would have no problem buying concentration camp figures but would have buying LAH figures , you just can't airbrush it out what happend in them camps and would of thought people would be more up set of LAH figures glorifying the Nazi's seventy years after the war ?

 

[Rob]

Well I would have no problem buying concentration camp figures but would have buying LAH figures , you just can't airbrush it out what happend in them camps and would of thought people would be more up set of LAH figures glorifying the Nazi's seventy years after the war ?

Really Neil? You'd find LAH marching troops more upsetting than an emaciated corpse in a striped unifom?? Each to their own of course mate but I'd hazard a guess at which the relatives and descendants of the victims would find more offensive, but just my view.

Rob

 

[uksubs]

Really Neil? You'd find LAH marching troops more upsetting than an emaciated corpse in a striped unifom?? Each to their own of course mate but I'd hazard a guess at which the relatives and descendants of the victims would find more offensive, but just my view.

Rob

Well Rob I would not go that far and who to say what right and what wrong

 

[Firebat]

But thats not a concentration camp?????^&confuse

Rob

Well you get the idea where it is headed, the scene in Episode III had them boarding the trains, we will do a concentration camp scene. The favorable response from the Jewish community is good enough for us to contiue to the camp. BUT .... NO....I would not have displays like this in my collection. All of the scenes we are doing for TGC are temporary.

As a matter of fact my wife who is half German will not let me bring any German piece I have into the house. I have to keep them in the BSP workshop.

I have posted many times that many of you are obsessed with German stuff, I hate to keep mentioning The Great Crusade but it it reflects me and you can see it is done in a tone that always favors the Allies. I had even inquired in posts why German stuff out sold Allied stuff. All of my personal displays downplay Germany and Hitler.

But to be accurate about history we had to include the Holocaust in TGC. There actually is a Jewish Museum nearby who we brought it to and they want to show our presentation when all Episodes are done. Alex

 

[Rob]

Well Rob I would not go that far and who to say what right and what wrong

Neil, personally would not buy concentration camp victims under any circumstances, apart from all the moral arguments its the grimness that would be too much for me. I also don't collect the LAH but I can see how the uniforms and marching figures appeal to some collectors, its kind of back to the days of marching toy figures that used to be produced in huge numbers. Again not for me, but choice and freedom to choose is a great thing{bravo}}

Rob

 

[Rob]

Thanks for posting Alex, I thought I was missing something for a min there^&grin I must say we do see many many excellent German dio's so its good to see you concentrate on the allied crusade, good luck with it.

I think by the sound of it almost no one would have Camp figures in their collection, but as some have said it is a moment in history so at least can be talked about, even if none of us would buy them.

Cheers

Rob

Well you get the idea where it is headed, the scene in Episode III had them boarding the trains, we will do a concentration camp scene. The favorable response from the Jewish community is good enough for us to contiue to the camp. BUT .... NO....I would not have displays like this in my collection. All of the scenes we are doing for TGC are temporary.

As a matter of fact my wife who is half German will not let me bring any German piece I have into the house. I have to keep them in the BSP workshop.

I have posted many times that many of you are obsessed with German stuff, I hate to keep mentioning The Great Crusade but it it reflects me and you can see it is done in a tone that always favors the Allies. I had even inquired in posts why German stuff out sold Allied stuff. All of my personal displays downplay Germany and Hitler.

But to be accurate about history we had to include the Holocaust in TGC. There actually is a Jewish Museum nearby who we brought it to and they want to show our presentation when all Episodes are done. Alex