Delivery day!!!! (2 Viewers)

[mestell]

How is the detail painting on the drum? Matt had mentioned a while back that he was really proud of how the drummer figure turned out.

Noah

That is one of the things that most impressed me about the drummer. There is a mounted figure on the drum and other ornamental details that are extremely well done. The ropes are a nice black and white pattern. There is a nice weathering effect. From the face, to the uniform, to the drum, this is a top notch figure.

Was reading last night about the 5th Foot at Bunker/Breed's Hill. On 4/18/1775 their Grenadier Company roster listed 38 enlisted men and 3 officers, a total of 41 effectives for service. This included the drummers and fifers. I also read that a typical 1775 British Grenadier Company was maintained as much as possible at full strength which was 38 privates, 3 corporals, 2 sergeants, 2 LT's, 1 Captain, 4 drummers, and 2 fifers.

I was just wondering if FL will offer a Fifer to go with their 5th Foot figures . . . . .
:smile2: Mike

 

[Fusilier]

Was reading last night about the 5th Foot at Bunker/Breed's Hill. On 4/18/1775 their Grenadier Company roster listed 38 enlisted men and 3 officers, a total of 41 effectives for service. This included the drummers and fifers. I also read that a typical 1775 British Grenadier Company was maintained as much as possible at full strength which was 38 privates, 3 corporals, 2 sergeants, 2 LT's, 1 Captain, 4 drummers, and 2 fifers.

I was just wondering if FL will offer a Fifer to go with their 5th Foot figures . . . . .
:smile2: Mike

Mike, thanks for the detailed information, it is appreciated. Seems like 4 drummers is a lot for even a full strength company of 41....

Still, I love your idea, as a fifer would be an excellent addition to this release! I have to say, I just opened my first six figures of this release and I am more than pleased. They look amazing!

Noah

 

[mestell]

Mike, thanks for the detailed information, it is appreciated. Seems like 4 drummers is a lot for even a full strength company of 41....

Still, I love your idea, as a fifer would be an excellent addition to this release! I have to say, I just opened my first six figures of this release and I am more than pleased. They look amazing!

Noah

According to my reference last night, a full strength Grenadier Company would have been 61 - the 5th only had 41 available at Breed's Hill - how many drummers and fifers this included was not listed. Several formation diagrams I found showed the two flag ensigns positioned centered in front of the right flank company (Grenadiers) with at least 1 drummer and 2 fifers beind the ensigns, but still in front of the company. An officer (Captain) was positioned in front of the ensigns. I've been considering getting some of these AWI FL figures and not knowing too much about AWI British attack/advancing formations I decide to do some research on the subject.
:smile2: Mike

 

[Fusilier]

Several formation diagrams I found showed the two flag ensigns positioned centered in front of the right flank company (Grenadiers) with at least 1 drummer and 2 fifers beind the ensigns, but still in front of the company. An officer (Captain) was positioned in front of the ensigns.

Again, interesting stuff, as I hadn't seen that type of formation before. The flag-bearers would have been exposed as it is, but especially so deployed in front of a flank company. That would take some mettle indeed!

You motivated me to recheck some references as well. I was only able to find usual diagram of the 1764 regulation battalion formation, which had the flag-bearers in the middle of battalion formation. But interestingly enough, the same source talks about how the regimental flags were not carried in the field by a lot of the British units in the AWI.

Noah

 

[mestell]

Again, interesting stuff, as I hadn't seen that type of formation before. The flag-bearers would have been exposed as it is, but especially so deployed in front of a flank company. That would take some mettle indeed!

You motivated me to recheck some references as well. I was only able to find usual diagram of the 1764 regulation battalion formation, which had the flag-bearers in the middle of battalion formation. But interestingly enough, the same source talks about how the regimental flags were not carried in the field by a lot of the British units in the AWI.Noah

That's exactly why if I do decide to delve into this range, I might not get the Ensigns (even though they appear to be very nicely done). The same reasoning also applies to getting the mounted Colonel since that would be a Regimental command rank. My reference was only as it pertained to a Grenadier Company being chosen as the Colour Company. I don't know if the 5th Foot was a colour company at Breed's Hill. The 1898 painting of Bunker Hill by Howard Pyle does show 3 drummers behind a Grenadier Company 3-ranks deep and no ensigns/colours. Of course I understand that historians have found some issues with this artist's perception of the battle. Anyway I was very happy to just discover documentation on what the 5th Foot Grenadier Company troop strength was at the battle - 41 is not much of a company, more like a platoon.

Some figures representing the left flank company (Light Infnatry) would be nice also.
:smile2: Mike

 

[Fusilier]

That's exactly why if I do decide to delve into this range, I might not get the Ensigns (even though they appear to be very nicely done). The same reasoning also applies to getting the mounted Colonel since that would be a Regimental command rank... ....Some figures representing the left flank company (Light Infnatry) would be nice also.
:smile2: Mike

I am in total agreement. The first six figures of the 5th Foot that I got today are all marching grenadiers and the grenadier officer. With the type of display I want, I will probably stick to the company officers and the rankers. I do plan on getting the flag bearers, but as stand alone pieces. What I envision is having them mounted on a small wood pedastal base with a name plate for the regiment. I think a collection of flags bearers displayed like that would be cool as this range grows.

And some light infantry would be nice. You know it will happen sometime, as the 'light bobs' were such an omnipresent part of the British Forces in the AWI.

Noah

 

[mestell]

I am in total agreement. The first six figures of the 5th Foot that I got today are all marching grenadiers and the grenadier officer.
Noah

So, Noah, how do you like your 5th figures? Are they everything you expected? As a collector of WB ACW figures I am somewhat cautious about starting into another range. BUt everyday I am more tempted to try the FL AWI. All of my H&A diorama bases, scenics, and buildings work both for 18th and 19th century and they would certainly facilitate great photography setups for AWI as they have done for my interest in ACW . . .
:smile2: Mike

 

[6th Wisconsin]

So, Noah, how do you like your 5th figures? Are they everything you expected? As a collector of WB ACW figures I am somewhat cautious about starting into another range. BUt everyday I am more tempted to try the FL AWI. All of my H&A diorama bases, scenics, and buildings work both for 18th and 19th century and they would certainly facilitate great photography setups for AWI as they have done for my interest in ACW . . .
:smile2: Mike

You might want to give into the temptation on this one Mike. I know what you mean though. I collected only Civil War for 7 years. Now, I have ventured a lot into WWII and a little into AWI, Egyptians, and Napoleonics. These AWI figures are spectacular.

 

[Fusilier]

So, Noah, how do you like your 5th figures? Are they everything you expected? As a collector of WB ACW figures I am somewhat cautious about starting into another range. BUt everyday I am more tempted to try the FL AWI. All of my H&A diorama bases, scenics, and buildings work both for 18th and 19th century and they would certainly facilitate great photography setups for AWI as they have done for my interest in ACW . . .
:smile2: Mike

Mike, I can say these new 5th Foot figures are better than I expected. First Legion has done a great job with the initial two releases for this range and I can't wait for it to expand this year. The paint style of First Legion, along with thier excellent sculpting creates a superb product and one that fills a void for the AWI in my opinion. I keep looking at the little things, such as the grenadier cap cords, and I continue to be impressed. Overall, you won't find anything better for this period.

As you already have an obvious interest in this period and you doing some serious research on Bunker Hill, I would say to jump right in! They will look great in your H & A set up.

Noah

 

[Gebhard]

Just recieved the Howitzer Cannon with crew and the MG34 figures tonite....Will try to post some photos this weekend.

Alright :smile2:..... I'm looking forward to seeing what you can come up with , should be very cool ^&cool^&cool

 

[Jagdpanther]

I have been considering buying a few FL AWI figures..... especially the Continental Militia/Minutemen they look so good...and don't get me wrong the 5th foot figures look awesome aswell. I agree with Noah you wont really find better.

 

[Mike97]

With regards to the delivery services, my wife and I always give the FedEx/UPS guys a 'Christmas tip' of a fastfood gift card etc... and it does wonders for extra service. It helps that we've had the same guys for several years.

With regards to delivery, the UPS guy gently placed my FL box on a part of my porch that wasn't covered with snow (lol) and I rec'd CRU007 (Master Templar-incredible), CRU14 (Crossbowman-masterful), CRU 020 (Archer-excellent), plus the new German MG team (which I'm saving to open to tonite).

Another nice batch of FL figs.
mike

 

[mestell]

Mike, I can say these new 5th Foot figures are better than I expected. First Legion has done a great job with the initial two releases for this range and I can't wait for it to expand this year. The paint style of First Legion, along with thier excellent sculpting creates a superb product and one that fills a void for the AWI in my opinion. I keep looking at the little things, such as the grenadier cap cords, and I continue to be impressed. Overall, you won't find anything better for this period.

As you already have an obvious interest in this period and you doing some serious research on Bunker Hill, I would say to jump right in! They will look great in your H & A set up.

Noah

Hi there - more research last night. Confirmed that only the 5th Foot Grenadiers and Light Infantry Companys particiapted in the Lexington and Concord foray on 4/19/1775. Surprised to discover that the entire 5th Foot Regiment were heavily engaged at Breed's Hill - Lots of casulalties, including 2 company commanders (captains), and a number of LT's (Subalterns), ensigns, and Sgts. The Grenadiers were put into an all Grenadier Battalion as well as the Light Infantry Company (an all Lt Inf Battalion). These appear to have been used on the British left flank opposing the colonials in the redoubt. The line companies of the 5th Foot were immediately to the right of the Gren and Lt Inf Battalions. I also read tha tthe entire 5th foor wore the bear skin mitres and that what distinguished the Grenadiers from the line was the match box they wore and the cutlass side arm they carried. I am starting to waiver the more I read. I like the idea of developing a collection centered around Lexington and Concord, more rural, and more company level formations.

Question about the FL officers AWI021, AWI022, AWI026. AWI021 & AWI022 wear only one epaulette on their right shoulder where as AWI026 has two epaulettes, one on each shoulder. Are AWI021 & 022 LT's/Ensigns (subalterns) and is AWI026 a Captain. Would certainly make a difference as to where I would place these figures in an advancing line . . . .
:smile2: Mike

 

[Fusilier]

Mike-
Well first, you are absolutely correct, only the 5th Grenadiers and Light Infantry were sent out to Lexington and Concord. So if you are looking at that engagement for your set-up instead of Bunker Hill, these figures should work fine. I have seen conflicting information about the use of the bear skins for the entire regiment. One source I saw this morning said that the rest of the regiment wore unlaced cocked hats. But I feel fairly confident, that at the least, the grenadiers would have had thier caps so early on in the conflict.

As far as the figures, you are right on the officers, as AWI026 is the only actual grenadier officer. The AWI021 and 022 are battalion officers who were included to provide the collector the opportunity to have a full 'command set', when added to the flag-bearers and the mounted colonel. I asked Matt about this specifically about a month ago. I had assumed that the inclusion of the battalion officers was a prelude to an expansion of the 5th Foot with a future battalion company. Matt said no, they are just included for a command set potential. So, if you are looking for a specific grenadier company set up only, then you can stick with just the AWI026.

Noah

 

[Andanna]

Guys, excellent discussion.

I wish it was not hurried in the "delivery" thread.

Having said that, I also opted for marching Grenadiers only. No members of the hat company. I miss the Ensigns, but maybe later - and separate from the Grenadiers.

I am focussing on the Balle at Brandywine Creek. The 5th was there and instrumental. Any recommendation for the line-up? Can you provide links for some information? I am new to the AWI and need to do my homework.

Can someone post a diagram of the positioning?

Thank you all in advance.

 

[mestell]

Guys, excellent discussion.

I wish it was not hurried in the "delivery" thread.

Having said that, I also opted for marching Grenadiers only. No members of the hat company. I miss the Ensigns, but maybe later - and separate from the Grenadiers.

I am focussing on the Balle at Brandywine Creek. The 5th was there and instrumental. Any recommendation for the line-up? Can you provide links for some information? I am new to the AWI and need to do my homework.

Can someone post a diagram of the positioning?

Thank you all in advance.

I am doing the same thing you are Andanna, only collecting the marching Grenadiers along with the company officer, nco and drummer. However, I am thinking about getting AWI022 Regimental Officer w/Sword for my Lexington & Concord scenarios. Through my recent study and research on L&C, for some reason the British General staff, at the last minute, assigned Hat Company captains to the grenadier and light infantry units as their commanders for this endeavor. The grenadier and light infantry companies still kept their company officers but they were not in command. This casued a big breakdown in communication, trust and bonding between command and men. For this reason I feel that the appearance/addition of a Hat Company officer marching with the Grenadiers would be appropriate.

I probably will forego the Ensigns also since the Colour Company was known as the Colonel's Company and typically were a Hat/Line company. I probably won't collect the mounted colonel also since I am trying to develop a "company" unit, not a whole regiment.

It seems the more I read and do research on this subject the more frustrated I get. I am starting to realize that the reason good information on uniforms, equipment, rank designation, etal is so difficult to come by is that most regimental Colonels enjoyed a lot of leeway as to how their regiment would be uniformed. The color red and the cloth used in uniforms often were different for enlisted men, NCO's, and Officers. A scarlet waist sash designated a Sgt, where as a simple shoulder knot would designate a corporal. The difference between company officers might be in the lace, one epaulette or two, a silver epaulette or gold, or simply the style of buttons - most of which was decided upon by the regimental colonel.

I have read that on April 19, 1775, just before leaving Boston, the Grenadiers and the Light Infantry Battalions were issued extra cartridges, cold salt pork and ship's hard crackers - all of which they placed in their haversacks. They were told not to bring/use their knapsacks/backpacks since they would not be gone long and would not be needed. Alas, our AWI Grenadiers are equipped with knapsacks, but then they are so well done I can overlook this for my L&C scenarios.

It appears that the Light Company Battalion on the L&C expedition were there to protect the Grenadiers. They were the ones engaged with the colonist at Lexington & Concord, while the Grenadiers searched these two villages and the outlying farms for militia supplies and contraband. In chatting the other night with Matt, I sugested that it would be great to have 5th Foot Light Infantry figures to use as a rear guard action protecting the retreat of the Grenadiers back to Boston.

All I can say is that my research has had as many dead ends as anyting else in trying to determine what in actuality was the common place/practice of the times. This is even true with formations used - diagrams and decent documentation on line formations have benn difficult to find. One that I did find was for a 26-man section of a company that looked like this:

C = Captain, c = corporal, S = Sgt, L = Lt, D = Drummer, P = private

LPPPPcPPPPcC
SPPPPPPPPPPS
D L

Its been an interesting study to say the least . . .
:smile2: Mike

 

[Fusilier]

Guys, excellent discussion.

I wish it was not hurried in the "delivery" thread.

Having said that, I also opted for marching Grenadiers only. No members of the hat company. I miss the Ensigns, but maybe later - and separate from the Grenadiers.

I am focussing on the Balle at Brandywine Creek. The 5th was there and instrumental. Any recommendation for the line-up? Can you provide links for some information? I am new to the AWI and need to do my homework.

Can someone post a diagram of the positioning?

Thank you all in advance.

Well, as you can see, Mike just posted some great informtation, especially concerning Lexington and Concord. I would concur with all of it and would like to highlight the part of new officers being in command of the flank companies that day. I have read that exact thing myself, so if you would want to do a Lexington and Concord dispaly, I would think it acceptable to have the either the AWI021 or 022 figures along with the Grenadiers.

As far as the Battle of Branywine, yes, the grenadiers from the 5th Foot were there as one of the numerous detached companies which made up the composite 1st Battalion of Grenadiers. As you have probably found, this unit was part of Cornwallis' attack on the American right flank, which precipitated the collapes of the American lines. "The Philadelphia Campaign, vol. 1" by Thomas J. McGuire covers this very well if you haven't seen it.

For the company formation, I have seen basically the same line up that Mike posted. The most important thing would be the officers on the flanks, to facilitate command and control. There is another great book by Matthew H. Spring titled "With Zeal and with Bayonets Only", which covers a lot of small details like this for the British army. His coverage of minor tactics throughout the AWI is great and the book is an excellent resource. In fact, this book is where I read that a lot of the time, the British units in the AWI did not carry thier colors into the field.

As a side note, I found an interesting pdf file this morning from a rather highly-regarded reenactor group in Massachusettes. It is thier group's formation manual and it is rather fun to see all the different formations. Is it 100% accurate? I don't know, but it still is worth checking out I think. Here's the link:http://www.redcoat.org/gren_drill.pdf

Noah

 

[mestell]

As a side note, I found an interesting pdf file this morning from a rather highly-regarded reenactor group in Massachusettes. It is thier group's formation manual and it is rather fun to see all the different formations. Is it 100% accurate? I don't know, but it still is worth checking out I think. Here's the link:http://www.redcoat.org/gren_drill.pdf

Noah

Excellent source Noah, thanks - I now have it bookmarked. I see that the formation I found from another source is listed here also. I am begining to think I will try to mimic this diagram and develop a 26-man "company" and display them in this company front formation.
Mike

 

[Fusilier]

Excellent source Noah, thanks - I now have it bookmarked. I see that the formation I found from another source is listed here also. I am begining to think I will try to mimic this diagram and develop a 26-man "company" and display them in this company front formation.
Mike

No problem Mike, I just stumbled across this source earlier today. You know tough it can be to find such a detailed-rich manual. Again, is it perfectly accuarate? I don't know.

But I do like your idea of the 26-man company. That will look pretty close to the the promo shot First Legion has of all the figures in this grenadier release. The main group is 2-15 man ranks, with the grenadier captain on the left. You will be really close to this if you do 26 figures, which will be impressive!

Noah

 

[Andanna]

This is perfect. Thank you so much.

Trying some more to take advantage of your thorough research, Mike and Noah, if I may:

I do not see mentioning of the Sapper. Do you think I could make him join the Drummer?

Also: are you intending to do both Ranks in "March" position, or could you consider doing one of them in "March Attack"?