Dispatches pictures coming through! (1 Viewer)

[Humbug]

Hello Mitch

But I can see how collectors get irked over this stuff. Again, I don't buy it because it appears to me that it is a glorification of Nazism- plain and simple- like me.

+ me (Humbug)

Can anyone explain why this LAH stuff is so popular?
Maybe people should pay more attention during history lessons or take the trouble visiting the former concentration camps when visiting Europe.
I collect American soldiers as some sort of a 'hommage' to the brave G.I.'s
Without these heroes we (Europeans) would be talking German!

 

[g18]

I liked K&C Lancers and have them all .. still, IMHO, I believe K&C could have done a bit better.

One of the things NAP collectors like is "mass" .. and the Lancers release had a creditable 9 poses. However, there were split between 4 to 5 "action" poses and 4 to 5 "non-action" poses. Now I have my Lancers displayed in 2 seperate groups .. 3 attacking an English square, and the other 6 in a parade column. I rather have them all in a single display.

If we observe from K&C's "more" popular/well received pre-20th century cavalry releases, such as ACW and NAPs .. all the poses released in these ranges completed each other, as in the case of the Confederate cavalry, the Scots Grey and the French Cuirassiers.

Although the above were all "action/ attacking" poses but I would still welcome "parade" poses, as long as I am able to build to a minimum mass.

How do other "cavalry" collectors feel ?
Have a good day.

OD

I display the Red Lancers in a row (next to my Cuiraissiers) and they look fine visually to me. Initially, I have this notion that parade and action poses don't mix but that has not been the case after I experimented with it. Given the legend of the Red Lancers, I simply need these on my display cabinet - parade or action. Just my personal choice, though.

More variety and interesting poses would have been good. Those doing dioramas would need more than 4 action poses. A French cavalry charge on a British square can be a combined effort by the Cuiraissiers and the Red Lancers (& mounted Chassuers) - as in the first of the 3 phases of cavalry charges towards Mont St Jean during Waterloo.

 

[g18]

I can never quite understand the interest in parade figures, so I'm for a lot of action in a group that can be used in a diorama. I don't mind the 'second line' being a bit less aggressive, as long as they compliment those in the first rank. Cavalry is so expensive, I really want them to be right if I'm going to get them. To be honest, with NAPS, my interest is centered on Britain and France and I only noticed the Red Lancers for the first time last week. I was a little bit tempted by the colour and the fact they were using lances but the poses didn't quite do it for me. I would like a French cavalry brigade of sorts for my Waterloo arrangement, so I'm still keen on another Regt - and a mounted Marshal Ney, to go with my Cuirassiers.

Although they are grouped under "Dutch Lancers" by K&C, the Red Lancers are actually French Cavalry. Their origin is Dutch but the annexation of Holland into the French empire in 1810 resulted in the Dutch lancers being incorporated into the Imperial Guard. From this initial batch, Napoleon expanded them with French recruits until eventually, it was mainly dominated by French troopers with the original Dutch veterans forming a minority. Osprey's book title "Napoleon's Red Lancers" says it all.

From 1813 onwards, when the Red Lancers are drawn up for battle, only the first of a regiment's two ranks carry lances. The second rank (and all NCOs, including corporals) would carry only sabres, carbines and saddle pistols - but no lances.

The Polish and Dutch Lancers serve under Napoleon - so it is fine to incorporate light cavalry such as the Red Lancers into a French cavalry charge with the heavy shock troops of Cuiraissiers and Carabiniers - i.e. the 3 phases of cavalry charges launched by Marshal Ney up the slope towards Mont St Jean (Waterloo 1815) against Allied squares.

I think it would have been more interesting to have General Colbert (who is French) in a more action-oriented pose, leading the Red Lancers in a charge.

 

[Rob]

I thought this was great as a kid watching it and, even though, as you pointed out, its not as accurate as it could be its one of those top films I never get sick of
Mitch

LOL LOL...Une Now Sing....SING LOUDER.... LOUDER....pretty bad movie....so bad its good%^V :salute::

As you say guys, pretty bad movie realism wise, but still a classic war film if you get my meaning. As a kid it seemed to be on every Christmas and we would all watch it together as we recovered from the huge turkey dinner. Whatever we think of the details of the film its good entertainment and I enjoy it.

Speaking of Christmas films, there was always a handful of them that were shown every year over the holiday (some still are) Great Escape, Zulu, Magnificent 7, Waterloo, Battle of the Bulge. I grew up watching these films and am very fond of them, and even though i've seen them all dozens of times over the years, as soon as dvd's came out I went straight out and got them. :salute::

Oh well I guess you're all fed up with my reminiscing.....

Back to the LAH debate

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Humbug...

I replied to Currahhee's post yesterday but, then thought better of it and did not want to spoil a thread which, has nothing to do with LAH but, as others are posting and its about new releases here is my take on one point chris raised and some of yours.

Chris said Parades glorify the regime or give a sense of pride to the unit division and, in that a country. Germany at that time was rebuilding after much hardship in its economic and political landscape. Humbug mentions taking note of history and thats spot on we have to take into consideration the times and all the issues why the nazis were popular. I agree the mass parades and night rallies and nuremburg were a part of glorifying the regime but, a bigger part for me, is that it showed their own countrymen and the outside world that germany was uniting and was strong and that was the main reason. This has been told to me by LAH veterans who paraded they felt pride in their country again.

However, if we are to go down this road then those people who are screaming outrage then rather easily give up their morality IMO and have the absolute indoctrinated epitomy of the regime in their homes in the guise of the Waffen SS. Nobody can argue that they were not so and fought as hard and as brutal a battle for the survival of the regime. Do these SS units not glorify the regime to its utmost position??? Yes they do and thats my point.

Humbug (I mean no offence) but, your argument is dangerous in my opinion ''I buy GI's to glorify their bravery and sacrifice'' why not canadians english etc??? but, my point is that it may well be true (I don't get it myself) but, in that mental frame of mind because your buying the so called good guys which, glorify the role you hold its all to easy then to portray those who buy the other side as somehow glorifying the german side and tar them as has been done with the sympathiser role. I have also taken a massive interest in history and your point about visiting camps has nothing to do with it at all. I have visited camps and lots of them does that mean I should not collect LAH?? then stop buying anything german period including all the german factories that are still in existance that used forced labour. But, what is that going to achieve???

As you dramatically put it we all may be speaking german not by choice had we not won the war but, we did and that freedom was won and allows people to hold whatever views or buy whatever they like and, that applies to the Berlin range and, I don't find it surprising that its popular as in the hobby including all the plastic kits etc german have been and still are popular so, why not the parade figures?? There probably would be no hobby had Tamiya and a few others not produced what they did. I have said this many times german stuff is more asthetically pleasing to the eye and, thats it. The links with toy soldiers and becoming ideologically linked with the regime is stupid and a weak and poor argument on the behalf of those who are too sensitive (possibly a reason) to face the realities of history and, too stubborn (possibly a reason) to see anything contrary to their beliefs can exist or be right. Its part of the worlds problems at the moment.

I cannot speak for anyone else as to why they buy parade figures but, I buy because A. by a remarkable quirk in my historical development I have a interest in the SS. B. I find the whole parade thing very dramatic and interesting I have several countries parades, bands, what have you and, for me, they are a better part of the hobby than the fighting units.

I am so english it could make your head spin and, have no respect for the regime of the national socialists. but, I exercise my right to buy what I want and not be castigated or moaned at because of it. It shows a remarkable lack of respect and understanding to view people like that and, mirrors exactly what all totalitarian regimes start out doing alienating certain sections that they don't agree with or understand that there is another point of view. I understand why it causes outrage but, its part of the history you say we should learn more of but, the detractors are lop-siding history if we can only have one side this hobby and the history books show both sides and banning a range leads to banning discussion and narrative and causes all sorts of issues. Germany, just recently is now beginning to see that its not heracy to discuss the history they have had and some of the shackles are being dropped which, is a great thing.
Mitch

+ me (Humbug)

Can anyone explain why this LAH stuff is so popular?
Maybe people should pay more attention during history lessons or take the trouble visiting the former concentration camps when visiting Europe.
I collect American soldiers as some sort of a 'hommage' to the brave G.I.'s
Without these heroes we (Europeans) would be talking German!

 

[lancer]

Battle of the Bulge or Battleground? Which one did you think was better? I liked Battleground. IMO I thought "Battle of the Bulge" was a awful movie. Just seemed a little to corny.

Agree with this. Battleground by far the better movie. Disliked BoB even when I saw it in the theaters. Just too innaccurate. They could have at least found a site with trees.:rolleyes2: -- Al

 

[Rethymno]

Mitch

I thought your last post was excellent, but felt the need to respond to one comment - "I exercise my right to buy what I want and not be castigated or moaned at because of it". I think others do have the right to moan about what you do (perhaps not catigate, and the boundary is hardly clear). What they do not have is the right to stop you from doing it.

As an aside, I have not and would never buy from the LAH range. The relevance of my decision extends to precisely one person - me.

Todd

 

[Mitch]

Rethymno...

I fully agree that everyone should be able to have their say even if its against the Berlin range. Its not like I do not understand why people find them offensive I do its just we know they are going to be plenty more releases and, I think that some of the against arguments valid at heart are posted to create sufficient acrimony to ensure a lockdown or similar and, thats a bit naughty IMO. but, I quite like a debate!!!
Mitch

Mitch

I thought your last post was excellent, but felt the need to respond to one comment - "I exercise my right to buy what I want and not be castigated or moaned at because of it". I think others do have the right to moan about what you do (perhaps not catigate, and the boundary is hardly clear). What they do not have is the right to stop you from doing it.

As an aside, I have not and would never buy from the LAH range. The relevance of my decision extends to precisely one person - me.

Todd

 

[Humbug]

Humbug...

.

Humbug (I mean no offence) but, your argument is dangerous in my opinion ''I buy GI's to glorify their bravery and sacrifice'' why not canadians english etc??? but, my point is that it may well be true (I don't get it myself) but, in that mental frame of mind because your buying the so called good guys which, glorify the role you hold its all to easy then to portray those who buy the other side as somehow glorifying the german side and tar them as has been done with the sympathiser role. I have also taken a massive interest in history and your point about visiting camps has nothing to do with it at all. I have visited camps and lots of them does that mean I should not collect LAH?? then stop buying anything german period including all the german factories that are still in existance that used forced labour. But, what is that going to achieve???

I cannot speak for anyone else as to why they buy parade figures but, I buy because A. by a remarkable quirk in my historical development I have a interest in the SS. B. I find the whole parade thing very dramatic and interesting I have several countries parades, bands, what have you and, for me, they are a better part of the hobby than the fighting units.

Mitch, thanks for taking the trouble answering my thread.
First of all, I've never denied anybody the right to buy anything they want or like!
Gee, even buying soft drugs is legal in this country (something I'm very much
against) but that's another topic!. However I think I have the right to object against the production and sale of items that can be interpreted as glorification
of a period in history of mankind that is regarded by most sensible people as diabolical and evil! Therefore I question the morality and good taste of K&C to produce and market these items, even if they are popular and sell well.

My opinion is also based on the fact that more than 70 years after these glorious
Nazi parades which seem to fascinate a lot of people, ' right-wing extremism'
is very much on the increase in this part of the world. The only difference is that
the 'new jews' are Muslims!

By the way, I also collect English and Canadian soldiers, and let's not forget the
brave Poles! Well heck, I even have some German POW's with both hand up,
reaching for the sky and begging for mercy!%^V

 

[Mitch]

Humbug...

Maybe these debates would not be as heated or inflammatory should those who dislike the sets would not always infer in their posts at the lack of morality on the part of those who produce or collect these ranges or, that somehow they are not in the sensible majority you speak off. Be that by insinuation or outright and openly

One can be moral and sensible and, produce and collect the berlin ranges.
Mitch

 

[lostboy]

+ me (Humbug)

Can anyone explain why this LAH stuff is so popular?
Maybe people should pay more attention during history lessons or take the trouble visiting the former concentration camps when visiting Europe.
I collect American soldiers as some sort of a 'hommage' to the brave G.I.'s
Without these heroes we (Europeans) would be talking German!

I have always followed world war 2 and I know just how evil the nazis were. Their desire to control the world and kill all those they felt were subhuman is more than just repulsive.
However, all I collect are the LAH figures and I have a full parade. I enjoy collecting everything in the range and find nothing there that should be banned. To me its a way of showing how in 1938, just how easy it was to get caught up in all the craziness that was the Nazis movement at the time.
There was widespread appeal and not only just in Germany. I look upon the LAH line is a way of offering a warning of how one minute they can be marching in a parade and then later becoming so brutal that even today, we can't really understand how evil they really were.
Like the box says, a warning in history.

 

[Rethymno]

Rethymno...

I fully agree that everyone should be able to have their say even if its against the Berlin range. Its not like I do not understand why people find them offensive I do its just we know they are going to be plenty more releases and, I think that some of the against arguments valid at heart are posted to create sufficient acrimony to ensure a lockdown or similar and, thats a bit naughty IMO. but, I quite like a debate!!!
Mitch

Agreed Mitch - love a good debate! I can genuinely say that some of the posts I've seen on the Forum have been sufficiently cogent for me to have changed my view on certain things. I think that's great.

 

[Currahee Chris]

Humbug...

Maybe these debates would not be as heated or inflammatory should those who dislike the sets would not always infer in their posts at the lack of morality on the part of those who produce or collect these ranges or, that somehow they are not in the sensible majority you speak off. Be that by insinuation or outright and openly

One can be moral and sensible and, produce and collect the berlin ranges.
Mitch

This is what has puzzled me since day 1 regarding your discussion of the LAH figures- you have mentioned "censorship, banning, etc." I cannot recall anyone saying anything about banning these figures or censoring anyone? What am I missing here?? I may be missing the point but it seems to me you are reading into some posts and drawing your own conclusions. My position is like a lot of collectors here- a.) curious as to what the draw is regarding these figures and b.) why they are so popular in terms of sales- that's all where I am coming from.

And regarding censorship- at the end of the day, I believe everyone has the right to speak their mind and have their say but this is a forum that is owned and operated by individuals with a commercial interest- if they chose to "censor" something, it's their right and we as guests have to accept it. :wink2:

 

[Rob]

Even though I don't collect these I would be against banning them , I still have enough faith in humanity to believe that most people in the world know what absolute human filth these people were and that no one can admire anything they did. But the day we ban people from their interests is the day we step onto the path the Nazi's wanted. These figures are well made and colourful, they are also a reminder of what a bunch of losers they were.

And at the end of the day the wonderful truth remains...THEY LOST, WE WON!^&cool:salute::

Rob

 

[trooper]

It is possible to find reason to object to almost every figure that is made because of some historical incident. History is full of barbaric atrocities, unfortunate incidents, murderous dictators and inhuman practices. Providing those incidents or practices are not themselves portrayed, and we trust that the manufacturers have sufficient good taste to avoid such portrayals, then the figures can take their place in historical collections. True, we should not forget what happened and if you feel strongly about it you have the freedom to avoid those particular items. But those same freedoms apply to the individuals who are interested and who do want them. This freedom was dearly bought and it's abuse is to be deplored. Trooper

 

[spartan71]

Even though I don't collect these I would be against banning them , I still have enough faith in humanity to believe that most people in the world know what absolute human filth these people were and that no one can admire anything they did. But the day we ban people from their interests is the day we step onto the path the Nazi's wanted. These figures are well made and colourful, they are also a reminder of what a bunch of losers they were.

And at the end of the day the wonderful truth remains...THEY LOST, WE WON!^&cool:salute::

Rob

Very well said Rob, I got pretty close, to actually start a collection. But chose better of it/ But the choice is there. And If that choice is taken Away, then we are closer To as you said The way of Nazi Thinking.

 

[Mitch]

Chris...

There has indeed been calls in many of the recent posts for the range to be ended in various forms from outright to cries to Andy that its spoiling his standing. I don't really read into peoples posts I comment on what is said. Sometimes though, subtle innuendo is glaring (stupid people with no morals) but, in this case its a theme that has been said and, my comments about that and censorship and, the type of person who produces or buys this stuff is a response to it.

Rob has a similar feeling in relation to being able to express like for a product without unecessary digs. It would be as nice to discuss the asthetic value of the releases without the constant need for people to remind us of the suffering in WWII. It would be taxing, would it not, should every time you discuss or mention modern war sets, to be harranged by anti war protests and telling you what a bunch of civillian murderers the allied troops are in Iraq/afghanistan and that it was offensive to civillians in these countries the sets are released placing pictures associated with some of the acts and generally trying to impose their morality onto your interests.

I know you have to take the rough with the smooth but, its very clear who and why they may dislike these sets but, they IMO cross the line when they try to impose their values views onto those many people who buy or, spoil threads etc etc.

I know many collectors (who have contacted me) etc who have large collections and would like to post them (as they have spent thousands and thousands) but, are fearful of being labelled or attacked by some on here.

If everyone did that as is done against the LAH then the forum would descend into turmoil. I have never seen such pics or animosity derived against Waffen SS sets for Totenkopf (camp guards, plenty of atrocities) LAH (Malmedy wormhoudt plenty of atrocities) Das Reich (oradour plenty of atrocities)

I suppose though it may be getting better as nobody moaned about the panzerfaust guy with his SA uniform on!!!!
Mitch

This is what has puzzled me since day 1 regarding your discussion of the LAH figures- you have mentioned "censorship, banning, etc." I cannot recall anyone saying anything about banning these figures or censoring anyone? What am I missing here?? I may be missing the point but it seems to me you are reading into some posts and drawing your own conclusions. My position is like a lot of collectors here- a.) curious as to what the draw is regarding these figures and b.) why they are so popular in terms of sales- that's all where I am coming from.

And regarding censorship- at the end of the day, I believe everyone has the right to speak their mind and have their say but this is a forum that is owned and operated by individuals with a commercial interest- if they chose to "censor" something, it's their right and we as guests have to accept it. :wink2:

 

[The Military Workshop]

Mitch,
Regarding your Post 97, extremely well said.
Regards
Brett

 

[Jamo]

I've not previously commented on the rights and wrongs of the LAH range.... Personally, I don't collect them. But I feel that K&C have every right to produce such a series without being lambasted. Just as collectors of this series have every right to. I believe the old adage goes 'Forget history and history repeats itself'. It's not my personal taste to have parading nazis in my collection, but I do have K&C Waffen SS, K&C Tigers, etc. so would it not be a little hypocritical to critisize such collectors for collecting figures that fought for the same (nazi) cause?

I think the sculpting / painting on the latest LAH releases is very impressive. Like I said, not my bag, but as toy soldiers, they are excellent.

 

[jules118]

Mitch,
Regarding your Post 97, extremely well said.
Regards
Brett

I agree.

I must admit that every time I read these threads re LAH, SA men, civillian refugees being photographed etc, the 'anti' camp all too often come across as 'holier than thou' in their pontificating. In all to many cases it appears to me that they are either incredibly naive with a real simplistic black and white mentality or hypocritical ... or both.

Sorry guys, but I'm calling it as I see it, if my post is censored because of that, so be it.