Fancy a Knight out in Agincourt? (2 Viewers)

[skeeterbuck]

Hi Chuck - No - he's a 54mm piece from Fusilier Miniatures in the UK. Here's a link to him below. Note that they painted him as another Prince of Wales ( The Black Prince) - but I just painted him a bit differently as an earlier Prince - Owain Glyndwr. Not expensive either, as a casting ( though they can do them painted too). Glad you liked him. jb^&grin

http://www.fusilier-miniatures.com/ImageBH.asp?CODE=HK17

The reason I asked is that I have the same figure of the Black Prince in kit form from Hussar Miniatures, but he's about 90mm in size. The only difference I can see from the 54mm version is that the horse's head is lower and he's eating several apples lying on the ground. Like most of my figures he's on my "plan to do" list. :smile2:

Chuck

 

[johnnybach]

The reason I asked is that I have the same figure of the Black Prince in kit form from Hussar Miniatures, but he's about 90mm in size. The only difference I can see from the 54mm version is that the horse's head is lower and he's eating several apples lying on the ground. Like most of my figures he's on my "plan to do" list. :smile2:

Chuck

I know the feeling of having a stash of figures waiting!!! As you probably know, Fusiler, Hussar and Tommy Atkins, now all belong to the two brother Paul and Mark Turner. I hadn't noticed whether they still do 90mm figures - as I usually try to keep to the one scale - around 54mm.

As you may also note - I don't always stick to the paint schemes illustrated by the manufacturers. I painted my version as Owain Glyndwr - from a few pictures I found on the internet, as I already had a version of The Black Prince by Tradition of London - who also do a very nice range of Medieval figures.

Good luck with your figure - when you get around to painting him up - and keep an eye out for this thread when it appears again - as I have a few more Knights awaiting construction/conversion and painting too, which you might enjoy a peek at. Nice to know there are a few more Heraldic enthusiasts out there.jb

 

[Buster]

Brilliant work as always jb ..... oh to have that kind of talent for painting, but I regret to say painting walls, doors and window sash is about the limit for me ..... and even then resorting to a bit of masking tape here and there. :rolleyes2: :redface2: ^&grin

B.

 

[skeeterbuck]

I checked out Fusilier Miniatures site and they don't seem to do the 90mm figures. I did find a pic of the figure I have.

I don't think this one is painted very well, but it will give you an idea of how close it is to his 54mm little brother.

Chuck

As a little side note, the "cap of maintenance" (the cloth and formed leather with the figure on the top of the helmet) worn by the Black Prince is the only one know to still exist and it's believed to have been a replacement made for this funeral. It is believed by some, that these weren't actually worn in battle.

 

[johnnybach]

That looks very like the figure that I bought from Fusilier/Hussar, Chuck. When I say that mine is 54mm - I'm refering to the size of the seated figure - and not the height of the horse and figure from stand to the top. Yours could be an earlier version - with just a different style of painting to mine - as I prefer glossy.

As to use of Great helms - and decorations on them, many believe that they were used only at Tournaments - or Parades and not in actual battles. I don't really care that much - as my figures are Toy Soldiers - which I think look great if some decorative features can be added. I'm not alone here either - as Courtney, Ping and Greenhill models testify, many of which have detachable helms - and these can sell for really big bucks! ( so I'm not interested in buying any).

It is known that by around 1350, Great Helms were largely being superceded on the battlefield by the more mobile Basinets and their like - as the Great Helms were heavier, less mobile and more cumbersome. In Tournaments however, they were still just as popular due to their great strength - even,(or so I've read), to being re-inforced with more metal on one side - to better protect the wearer in the joust. Straight ahead vision was fine here - though the death of the French King Henry II in 1559, in a joust - where he was hit in the eye form a broken lance tip shows just how dangerous a "sport" it really was.

There are quite a few web-sites devoted to both helmets and the rest of the armour worn during the middle-ages, and modern replicas of them, which are mainly provided for re-enactment groups to purchase. They are well worth a look - as they are instructive in how helmets and armour generally developed over time. A very interesting subject indeed. jb

 

[johnnybach]

Brilliant work as always jb ..... oh to have that kind of talent for painting, but I regret to say painting walls, doors and window sash is about the limit for me ..... and even then resorting to a bit of masking tape here and there. :rolleyes2: :redface2: ^&grin

B.

Here's a tip Buster - use a smaller brush for models than for the walls and doors etcetera! I find a 9 inch roller is a disaster for painting moustaches!

Thanks for the vote of confidence. jb{sm4}

 

[skeeterbuck]

That looks very like the figure that I bought from Fusilier/Hussar, Chuck. When I say that mine is 54mm - I'm refering to the size of the seated figure - and not the height of the horse and figure from stand to the top. Yours could be an earlier version - with just a different style of painting to mine - as I prefer glossy.

As to use of Great helms - and decorations on them, many believe that they were used only at Tournaments - or Parades and not in actual battles. I don't really care that much - as my figures are Toy Soldiers - which I think look great if some decorative features can be added. I'm not alone here either - as Courtney, Ping and Greenhill models testify, many of which have detachable helms - and these can sell for really big bucks! ( so I'm not interested in buying any).

It is known that by around 1350, Great Helms were largely being superceded on the battlefield by the more mobile Basinets and their like - as the Great Helms were heavier, less mobile and more cumbersome. In Tournaments however, they were still just as popular due to their great strength - even,(or so I've read), to being re-inforced with more metal on one side - to better protect the wearer in the joust. Straight ahead vision was fine here - though the death of the French King Henry II in 1559, in a joust - where he was hit in the eye form a broken lance tip shows just how dangerous a "sport" it really was.

There are quite a few web-sites devoted to both helmets and the rest of the armour worn during the middle-ages, and modern replicas of them, which are mainly provided for re-enactment groups to purchase. They are well worth a look - as they are instructive in how helmets and armour generally developed over time. A very interesting subject indeed. jb

Johnny, this figure is a lot bigger that 54mm. When mounted atop the horse it is about 6 inches high.

Great helms if I understand correctly refer to what we now call the helmet. The cap of maintenance is made from leather that is boiled, shaped then dried/hardened to retain its shape. It's then covered/decorated with cloth and ermine. It just fits over the top of the helm.

I find it very interesting that the more they discover about medieval life, the more they debunk long held 'beliefs". My personal favorite is that a knight in full armor couldn't mount a horse without assistance. {eek3}

Chuck

 

[johnnybach]

That certainly is about double the size of my version. Makes me wonder whether they were originally from the same sculpt - but in different scales.

If you look back in this thread to page #45, you will find another of my Knights - painted as The Black Prince - alongside Owain Glyndwr. The Black Prince is from a casting by Tradition of London - and quite different to this sculpt. Note that he is wearing a crown on a Basinet type helmet - and no "Cap of Maintenance".

Incidentally - here's another illustration of that device on The Arms of York.



All good, interesting fun - eh? jb

 

[skeeterbuck]

That certainly is about double the size of my version. Makes me wonder whether they were originally from the same sculpt - but in different scales.

If you look back in this thread to page #45, you will find another of my Knights - painted as The Black Prince - alongside Owain Glyndwr. The Black Prince is from a casting by Tradition of London - and quite different to this sculpt. Note that he is wearing a crown on a Basinet type helmet - and no "Cap of Maintenance".

Incidentally - here's another illustration of that device on The Arms of York.

View attachment 125440

All good, interesting fun - eh? jb

I had looked through the complete thread but I now see what your referring to. I agree it's great fun indeed.

As to the the figure I have, since it was once made by Hussar Miniatures, I would guess that the sculptor is the same. On the 90mm kit, the coat of arms for the Black Prince is actually lightly engraved into the castings as a guide for painting. Is it the same for the 54mm figure?

 

[johnnybach]

I had looked through the complete thread but I now see what your referring to. I agree it's great fun indeed.

As to the the figure I have, since it was once made by Hussar Miniatures, I would guess that the sculptor is the same. On the 90mm kit, the coat of arms for the Black Prince is actually lightly engraved into the castings as a guide for painting. Is it the same for the 54mm figure?

Yes - I'm sure you're right.

Yes it was lightly engraved with the devices found on your figure. As I already had the Tradition Black Prince figure - I lightly removed the faint engraving ( doubtless provided as a painter's guide by the sculptor), with a fine file - and then painted Owain's Coat of Arms, freehand onto the figure and caparison of the horse. I also slightly changed the decoration to the head - by adding the crown to it. Just a bit of poetic licence - as I had been looking for a figure to make up as Owain for quite a while. As soon as I saw this one - I knew it was the one for him!

I bought the book mentioned in the thread recently - and I'm now keener than ever to continue with the theme for the future - so - The Knights of Agincourt (and other conflicts^&grin) will march/ride again, I'm sure.

See you later? johnnybach

 

[skeeterbuck]

Just took a quick pic to show the size difference. The primed hussar (54mm) next to the Black Prince (90mm).

Chuck

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[skeeterbuck]

Here are some pics of a Border Miniatures 80mm of Henry "Hotspur" Percy I painted. He was sent to Wales to quash the rebellion lead by Owain Glyndwr.

Chuck

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[johnnybach]

Here are some pics of a Border Miniatures 80mm of Henry "Hotspur" Percy I painted. He was sent to Wales to quash the rebellion lead by Owain Glyndwr.

Chuck

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Yes - I can see the larger size clearly now. I like old Henry - Tradition of London still do a 54mm size of him in their foot-knights, so he will probably come my way at some future point in that size. Yours is very nicely painted indeed - well done.

Did you know that Hotspur defected to Owain in 1403 - and was killed at the Battle of Shrewsbury on 21 July in that year - along with a reported 300 knights and thousands of men - by the Army led by a young Henry of Monmouth ( son of HenryIV - and the future King Henry V). Turbulent times then.

The trouble with the Welsh at that period in history, was that they were too busy warring amongst themselves to concentrate on anyone else. When you watch Cardiff v Newport and the like (Rugby Union) - I sometimes think that not much has changed jb

 

[skeeterbuck]

Yes - I can see the larger size clearly now. I like old Henry - Tradition of London still do a 54mm size of him in their foot-knights, so he will probably come my way at some future point in that size. Yours is very nicely painted indeed - well done.

Did you know that Hotspur defected to Owain in 1403 - and was killed at the Battle of Shrewsbury on 21 July in that year - along with a reported 300 knights and thousands of men - by the Army led by a young Henry of Monmouth ( son of HenryIV - and the future King Henry V). Turbulent times then.

The trouble with the Welsh at that period in history, was that they were too busy warring amongst themselves to concentrate on anyone else. When you watch Cardiff v Newport and the like (Rugby Union) - I sometimes think that not much has changed jb

Johnny, thanks for your complements on old Hotspur.

Yea, Hotspur had some issues with King Henry IV, one of the main ones was money owed him for defending the Scottish border. As to the Welsh, down through history you see how hard it is to get masses of people to concentrate on a single foe. I guess it's just human nature to worry about yourself more than your fellow countrymen standing next to you.

The more I read about Medieval history in England, I come more and more to believe that the saying "Might makes right" must date back to those times. Interesting reading and research indeed.

 

[johnnybach]

Johnny, thanks for your complements on old Hotspur.

Yea, Hotspur had some issues with King Henry IV, one of the main ones was money owed him for defending the Scottish border. As to the Welsh, down through history you see how hard it is to get masses of people to concentrate on a single foe. I guess it's just human nature to worry about yourself more than your fellow countrymen standing next to you.

The more I read about Medieval history in England, I come more and more to believe that the saying "Might makes right" must date back to those times. Interesting reading and research indeed.

Well Chuck - I have a few more pieces of information for you regarding Henry "Hotspur" . I notice your version of him uses his original coat of arms. "Or, lion rampant azure with label gules".

Did you know that when his step-mother died, leaving no male offspring, certain of her properties passed to Hotspur, subject to his quartering his coat-of-arms with hers; "Gules, three lucies argent". Well, he changed it - to look like the image below. The label (gules) indicating that he was the eldest son was maintained on the new coat of arms. I guess he was wearing it when he died on that day in 1403. jb

 

[skeeterbuck]

Well Chuck - I have a few more pieces of information for you regarding Henry "Hotspur" . I notice your version of him uses his original coat of arms. "Or, lion rampant azure with label gules".

Did you know that when his step-mother died, leaving no male offspring, certain of her properties passed to Hotspur, subject to his quartering his coat-of-arms with hers; "Gules, three lucies argent". Well, he changed it - to look like the image below. The label (gules) indicating that he was the eldest son was maintained on the new coat of arms. I guess he was wearing it when he died on that day in 1403. jb

No jb I didn't know that. Thanks for the info and pic. The study of heraldry adds to my overall interest in the medieval period.
My figure was based more on the Battle of Otterburn time period. I'm also been working on and off (mainly off LOL!) of another 80mm Border knight figure that I plan to do up as the Scottish Sir James Douglas.

Chuck

 

[johnnybach]

No jb I didn't know that. Thanks for the info and pic. The study of heraldry adds to my overall interest in the medieval period.
My figure was based more on the Battle of Otterburn time period. I'm also been working on and off (mainly off LOL!) of another 80mm Border knight figure that I plan to do up as the Scottish Sir James Douglas.

Chuck

Good luck with "Sir James" - here's something you may not have seen about him.

http://www.thesonsofscotland.co.uk/drossdouglas.htm

 

[skeeterbuck]

A very interesting read. Thanks again jb! Your a wealth of info. ^&grin

Chuck

 

[johnnybach]

Glad to be of some small help Chuck - it's fortunate that I knew a tiny bit about two of the many hundreds of Medieaval Knights that existed - that you happened to have. I'm certainly NOT an expert - just an interested reader, mostly. I'm currently looking at a couple more to make up myself - that may appear at some time in the future in this thread. Looks like you enjoy bringing them back to "life" as much as I do - and we get a peek at Sir James at some time when you've finished painting him up. jb

 

[johnnybach]

If you liked Sir Robert, Lord Holland - then maybe you will like Sir Hugh Stafford, Lord Bourchier (c.1410), which is my next effort. He fought at Agincourt in 1415 - so would have looked very much like this at that time.

Here he is though, in a friendly non-contact joust with Sir Robert - and displaying his quartered coat-of-arms on his shield, surcoat and the caparison of his horse. I think this is a good example of "compounding" - where two enobled families (Staffords and Bourchiers) were enjoined in marriage - and the two formerly separate coats-of-arms are joined into a new one. Thus, when Sir Hugh Stafford married Baroness Elizabeth Bourchier ( around 1410 - or before) he added her devices by quartering them with his own. Note that the paternal line is always shown in quarters 1&4, ( In this case the Stafford - Or a chevron gules et une mullet sable sur chevron) - whilst the Bourchier devices are in quarters 2&3, (Argent, un croix engrailled gules et quatre bougets sable). The "bougets" in black, by the way, are water-skins being carried on a yoke that fits acros the shoulder - if you didn't know straight away what the black devices were - as was I to begin with!!!

This latest figure in my Medieaval collection - is really a conversion of a part re-cast Selwn-Smith figure, with a new basinet and visored head transplanted - as was the arm and lance - and some other horsey bits like tail and leg which were missing from the original parts. The extra parts came from a visit to Dorset Soldiers - where I took the bits I had - to find some interesting replacements. The original SS figure would have held a sword in right hand and originally, a different head - but I wanted a jousting figure with lance - so chose the same arm as my other figure.

The paintwork was suggested from a picture that I found of an original miniature made by John Braithwaite - from his "Plantagenet Knights" Range of figures. Sadly, John died, I think back in 1992, and the range is no longer in production. The picture can be fouund in the book I mentioned earlier, by Peter Greenhill "Heraldic Miniature Knights" (Fig.8.1., page 144). I think it's fair to say, that my figure also tested my painting efforts to the extreme - as this is about as small as I would like to go with the amateur kit at my disposal - and my usual tinlets of Humbrol enamel. Just another coat of varnish will see him finished by tomorrow.