FL Winter Panther: Stalingrad (1 Viewer)

[Gebhard]

Interesting that the gold edition by Honour Bound is being mentioned .I think it will be a similar situation when First Legion get to producing the big boys . There will be plenty of noise about the price and when they are no longer available everyone will say how GREAT they were and Oh how I wish I would have got one , and the collectors who just quietly bought one will just smile and say to themselves man I'm glad I have one in my collection.. ^&grin those secondary market prices are beyond ridiculous :wink2: when and if one comes up for sale .. Regards Gebhard

 

[IXEC]

Interesting that the gold edition by Honour Bound is being mentioned .I think it will be a similar situation when First Legion get to producing the big boys . There will be plenty of noise about the price and when they are no longer available everyone will say how GREAT they were and Oh how I wish I would have got one , and the collectors who just quietly bought one will just smile and say to themselves man I'm glad I have one in my collection.. ^&grin those secondary market prices are beyond ridiculous :wink2: when and if one comes up for sale .. Regards Gebhard

In my opinion a tanks tracks are what can make it or break it when it comes to the finer details. The HB Gold Tiger had this wounderful detail with their real metal tracks and so far FL tracks are made of plastic, rubber, like material just like the older versions of the Tamiya models. I understand why FL went with this type of material for their Winter Stug, ( breakage ) but it could have been done better on the Pz.III, not to say what they did was poor, but when it comes to larger size tanks this will be an issue.

If FL does do the "big boys" then their going to have to "improve" how they do the tracks, IMO.

 

[Mitch]

FL so far have not done limited runs of their AFV's they have stuck with one or two and got as many versions as they can from them often, going away from historical accuracy which, we have discussed before. Thats a business decision to get as much as possible from their releases and thats fine. HB will always be rarer and more sort after due to the way they were made almost, a commision based release. I would venture FL will not do this and will not limit a run similar to their new field gun expensive but not limited.

I do agree, with Terry, as a painter alone, the german grey is to light and, that track work and weathering needs to be addressed IMO.

I would like to see their renditions of the panther and tiger if, they ever do them as I have always believed HB were by far and still are the finest AFV's made in the hobby
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

In my opinion a tanks tracks are what can make it or break it when it comes to the finer details. The HB Gold Tiger had this wounderful detail with their real metal tracks and so far FL tracks are made of plastic, rubber, like material just like the older versions of the Tamiya models. I understand why FL went with this type of material for their Winter Stug, ( breakage ) but it could have been done better on the Pz.III, not to say what they did was poor, but when it comes to larger size tanks this will be an issue.

If FL does do the "big boys" then their going to have to "improve" how they do the tracks, IMO.

Agree with the track comment - metal tracks would really do it - but at what price. So far I have not been tempted too much by the FL AFVs - I'm sticking to Naps and a few figures from AWI, Crusades and Romans. Those appeal to me more and for me, more bang for the buck.

Terry

 

[Vezzolf]

Practically Speaking; I think it would not be in First Legion's best interests to do metal tracks on the big cats...Even though they would look great they would start to become cost prohibitive for most of us.....The tracks which they have thus far done on their AFV's are good enough for me and "Better" "Much Better" then the other major players by far:rolleyes2:... that goes double for painting and weathering (see Photos) ....With the exception of the old 1:32 scale Tiger by Figarti and HB....NO ONE has done as good a job on tracks and AFV's as First Legion with their Panzers...And their painting skills are presently unmatched IMO....I look forward to their future AFV releases{sm4}

{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}

 

[FirstLegion]

Agree with the track comment - metal tracks would really do it - but at what price.

Wow, this comment really has me shaking my head as it just goes to show how little people who aren't in the business really know. Metal tracks would be inexpensive in the extreme compared to how we do it now and the result would be subpar to say the least. It's strange, sometimes you guys think that we (all MFR's not just First Legion) don't even consider various options before deciding on a production strategy. Our track/bogey wheel setup is by far the most realistic ever created in a 1/30th scale model and BY FAR the most expensive method to do it on a very limited production run vehicle. I realize that there are those that will take issue with any method, be it ours or anyeone elses, because for whatever reason they think they know best despite their total lack of any experience on the matter. There is no method that is going to please everyone, but comments that address our track and bogey wheel setup are laughable when compared to what other companies are doing.

Sorry Forum people, but this is just how I feel and those who have our vehicles I think will see what I'm saying. Oh, and Mitch, please tell me where we've gone away from historical accuracy? This i'm dying to hear....

Best,

Matt

 

[fmethorst]

I understand the comment regarding the grey (RAL7021). It is pushing the light end of the shade for me too. That said, the grey did get quite light after applying and removing whitewash. The thing I appreciaite is the color isn't simply a light grey paint like I've seen on some of the competitors products. An effort has been made to represent fading and weathering effects. I think the tracks are actually very good and considerably better than the majority of the competition. I don't think we're going to see any individual track links (be they plastic or metal) so the choice FL has made regarding the tracks is OK with me. I have been happy with the malleability of the tracks which allows a degree of reshaping (i.e. the track sag). As I've stated before my only real complaint with the First Legion vehicles is tires which appear far too new and don't match the rest of the vehicle IMO.

 

[uksubs]

Mitch, We could just call it an Eastern Front AFV:wink2:released as an extension of the Stalingrad Range.....If FL can release Tigers and Panthers with a level of detail/weathering such as these 1:35 scale models.... and keeps prices "within reason" and competitive other "overpriced products".....FL may have more buyers then we think.....most collectors are exspecting "better" for the hi -end pricing which seems to abound lately....The question is: Is the price "Justifiable" for the product being offerred????...I would rather purchase a better product and.... own less.... then own more of what I don't really want (and still pricey besides).........Time will tell and price points will be esatablished according to quality of product and sales feasibility. It would be good to see 1:30th scale models made with this level of detail....seems to fit the FL style if they can pull it off.....Best Frank

I total agree{sm3}

 

[sammy719]

FL so far have not done limited runs of their AFV's they have stuck with one or two and got as many versions as they can from them often, going away from historical accuracy which, we have discussed before. Thats a business decision to get as much as possible from their releases and thats fine. HB will always be rarer and more sort after due to the way they were made almost, a commision based release. I would venture FL will not do this and will not limit a run similar to their new field gun expensive but not limited.

I do agree, with Terry, as a painter alone, the german grey is to light and, that track work and weathering needs to be addressed IMO.

I would like to see their renditions of the panther and tiger if, they ever do them as I have always believed HB were by far and still are the finest AFV's made in the hobby
Mitch

Don't really know how dark you want the grey to be on the tanks Mitch, to me if it were to get any darker grey it wouldn't be called grey, I absolutely love the color on all of my tanks/recon vehicle, the painting is the best out there, as far as the weathering you'll have to clue me in, I studied those vehicles over and over and the weathering is not over done, but enough to see it very easy, but I am with Frank, I think the wheels are to clean and hopefully in future releases the wheels will get the weathered look as well...Sammy

 

[Blowtorch]

Vezzolf...

a lot of people moaned about the gold edition costs of the HB tigers etc and, they were superb but, not many were sold.

That's not how it happened. The Gold Edition Tigers were cancelled even as new orders were coming in (I know because mine was one of them). The demand was there, but there came a point where HB couldn't keep the pricing steady as labor was in the process of going up.

 

[IXEC]

Agree with the track comment - metal tracks would really do it - but at what price. So far I have not been tempted too much by the FL AFVs - I'm sticking to Naps and a few figures from AWI, Crusades and Romans. Those appeal to me more and for me, more bang for the buck.

Terry

Agreed . . but CS has done there Tiger track links in metal and for a good deal on the price point. . . .

 

[IXEC]

I understand the comment regarding the grey (RAL7021). It is pushing the light end of the shade for me too. That said, the grey did get quite light after applying and removing whitewash. The thing I appreciaite is the color isn't simply a light grey paint like I've seen on some of the competitors products. An effort has been made to represent fading and weathering effects. I think the tracks are actually very good and considerably better than the majority of the competition. I don't think we're going to see any individual track links (be they plastic or metal) so the choice FL has made regarding the tracks is OK with me. I have been happy with the malleability of the tracks which allows a degree of reshaping (i.e. the track sag). As I've stated before my only real complaint with the First Legion vehicles is tires which appear far too new and don't match the rest of the vehicle IMO.

I can agree . . with a track link the size of a 1/30 Pz.III . . but when you triple a tracks size as applied to a 1/30 Tiger it would be quite a bit different . . .CS has gone with metal links on there Tigers . . With a model of that size . nothing else would do . .

 

[Vezzolf]

We would all love to see metal track links....But I would not go as far as to say nothing else would do...especially when you consider the VERY POOR track and wheel work being offerred by the other major manufacturers at hi prices.....I think that if a detailed resin track could be offerred by First Legion it would be more than acceptable and at least affordable....First Legion AFV's are even now leaps and bounds above the competition.{sm4}{sm4} including CS and K/C....But who knows maybe they will even go a step beyond their aleady excellent products......This company does not seem to be afraid to invest in product improvement.

 

[Vezzolf]

Don't really know how dark you want the grey to be on the tanks Mitch, to me if it were to get any darker grey it wouldn't be called grey, I absolutely love the color on all of my tanks/recon vehicle, the painting is the best out there, as far as the weathering you'll have to clue me in, I studied those vehicles over and over and the weathering is not over done, but enough to see it very easy, but I am with Frank, I think the wheels are to clean and hopefully in future releases the wheels will get the weathered look as well...Sammy

Totally agree, Sammy....I think that any darker is a "mistake"....If you want it darker the individual collector could do a re-paint:wink2:....but why??? They aleady look great{sm4}{sm4} and the weathering is quite well done.....Maybe a little x-tra on the wheels and tracks....But that's all....Frank

 

[Mitch]

It would still be called grey I just think its the wrong colour grey or, at the least the wrong shade. Its a really hard colour to crack properly and many people have different views on the exact manner it should be but, it would be better slightly darker then, weathered. Just an observation
Mitch

Don't really know how dark you want the grey to be on the tanks Mitch, to me if it were to get any darker grey it wouldn't be called grey, I absolutely love the color on all of my tanks/recon vehicle, the painting is the best out there, as far as the weathering you'll have to clue me in, I studied those vehicles over and over and the weathering is not over done, but enough to see it very easy, but I am with Frank, I think the wheels are to clean and hopefully in future releases the wheels will get the weathered look as well...Sammy

 

[Phantom Warrior]

It would still be called grey I just think its the wrong colour grey or, at the least the wrong shade. Its a really hard colour to crack properly and many people have different views on the exact manner it should be but, it would be better slightly darker then, weathered. Just an observation
Mitch

Up to late 1939, German armour which was mostly Panzer I, Panzer II and Czech tanks, were painted 2/3 dark grey (which was almost black) and 1/3 dark brown (or dark green). It is very difficult to see there are 2 colours in the black and white photos - they look like they are painted a single colour. In late 1939, the paint was ordered to be factory applied dark grey (almost black) and by mid-1940 was the only colour used. (IMO the colour K&C uses is the most accurate.) So in 1940 France, the newer AFVs were dark grey and the older ones were dark grey and dark brown.

Armour used in Russia, with some exceptions in the south, were dark grey (almost black). However, some units field applied dark brown or dark green in the old pre-1939 patterns.

In February 1943, Dark yellow replaced dark grey.

Terry

 

[nmrocks]

The first $500.00 Tank?

 

[fmethorst]

There is no disputing that factory RAL7021 was very dark. Months of exposure to the sun and elements as well as the appllication and removal of whitewash had a definite effect on the shade.

 

[Vezzolf]

Some Grey AFV 1:35 scale models are painted grey but seem to have a bluish faded tint...I tend to like that style of faded grey....I don't know if that's an accurate representation but looks good to me.

 

[Blowtorch]

There is no disputing that factory RAL7021 was very dark.

Yeah, but I'm starting to get a queasy feeling about this. Now I know you like looking at the old pics & current 7021 sg fandeck swatch for reference, but there are other references & they are not all in agreement. By now I've looked in depth wrt American colors and the confusion which has ensued over the decades, and the source for nearly all the confusion was color conversion charts. I am wondering if this has not infected our (& respectable authors) understanding of what the German colors were too.

Being that we are talking about grey (ignoring the blue tint), we can use simple Munsell Neutral scales for comparison (fandeck is available from X-Rite).

So if we go with the current RAL products, we have:

7021 sg fandeck swatch: N2.5
7021 HR standard card: N2.6

and we have the chip Chory put in his book at a bit lighter:

7021 Chory: N3.2

however, in the early 1970's, a magazine called G2-AFV published four articles on German Panzer Grey (issues I/7, II/7, III/9, V/4) in which the author included a paint chip in each article made from a recipe of Floquil RR paints* and sourced to a original can of WW2 7021 paint in the authors possession.

I/7: N4.3
II/7: N3.7
III/9: NN4.4
V/4: N3.8

...not all identical, but they do establish a range based on a can of paint.

Then there are these guys whom seem to have more resources than conversion charts for data:

http://histor.ws/bmwr12/eng/resta-06.htm

and they claim the Heer Panzer Grey is more like current RAL 7043:

7043 sg fandeck swatch: N3.7

add to all of this that I have now sent 3 different people to look at the original color cards in Germany, and all 3 have gone silent on me. Now, either looking at the original color cards turns one to stone, or more likely, they saw something interesting & want to sell the information to the highest bidder.

I don't know what is going on, but there is data suggesting that the true color lies in between Chory's sample & 7043, which is far from the current RAL 7021.

*For the record, the G2-AFV recipe was 5:2:2 :: RR12 Reefer Grey:RR10 Engine Black:RR56 Big Sky Blue